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Vanity - info on libertarianism
today | self

Posted on 06/24/2013 11:41:35 AM PDT by jagusafr

Mrs. Colonel and I were watching Stossel's "Illegal Everything" last night and it led to a discussion of what, precisely, the precepts of libertarianism are. Anybody got suggestions on a succinct, unwonky treatise or explanation?


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: government; libertarian; politics; vanity

1 posted on 06/24/2013 11:41:35 AM PDT by jagusafr
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To: jagusafr

Well, stay away from the Libertarian Party stuff.

They are just a liberal group that hijacked the name “libertarian” and cloak themselves in a few cherry-picked concepts.

A group I like a lot is “Libertarians for Life” which I learned about right here on FreeRepublic.

1. Human offspring are human beings, persons from conception, whether that takes place as natural or artificial fertilization, by cloning, or by any other means.

2. Abortion is homicide — the killing of one person by another.

3. One’s right to control one’s own body does not allow violating the obligation not to aggress. There is never a right to kill an innocent person. Prenatally, we are all innocent persons.

4. A prenatal child has the right to be in the mother’s body. Parents have no right to evict their children from the crib or from the womb and let them die. Instead both parents, the father as well as the mother, owe them support and protection from harm.

5. No government, nor any individual, has a just power to legally “de-person” any one of us, born or preborn.

6. The proper purpose of the law is to side with the innocent, not against them.

http://www.l4l.org/


2 posted on 06/24/2013 11:44:55 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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To: jagusafr
Try this:

The World's Smallest Political Quiz

There are a number of policy statements to which you can agree or disagree. You should be able to recognize the trend.

3 posted on 06/24/2013 11:45:32 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: jagusafr

Use their gray matter to stand in the gray area on all issues. Any issue that it seems contains any social undertone they immediately become tepid.


4 posted on 06/24/2013 11:47:52 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: TheThirdRuffian

“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.” — Thos. Jefferson


5 posted on 06/24/2013 11:48:10 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: justlurking

I am apprently somewhere betweeen a conservative and a libertarian.


6 posted on 06/24/2013 11:50:02 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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To: jagusafr

Libertarians - if you can believe them - are the only Constitutionalists. And why not? Libertarians wrote the dang thing.

Oh. And pass that joint, man.


7 posted on 06/24/2013 11:51:26 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: jagusafr

The “leave me the he!! alone” party.


8 posted on 06/24/2013 11:55:34 AM PDT by axxmann (If McCain is conservative then I'm a freakin' anarchist.)
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To: jagusafr

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz/quiz.php#

How to find out if you are one(above)The libertarian party unlike any other political party abides by its declared platform as nutty as most of us self described Libertarians are the platform embodies the things government should and should not be doing.

http://www.lp.org/platform


9 posted on 06/24/2013 11:57:09 AM PDT by scottteng (Tax government employees til they quit and find something useful to do)
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To: Responsibility2nd

I’ve actually seen libertarians being more reasonable on a lot of drugs, in that a fair amount of drugs make people dangerous to others (e.g., meth).

They also always agree that private employers can have whatever rules they want regardign drugs and can fire people for drugs all day long.


10 posted on 06/24/2013 11:57:17 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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To: jagusafr

I view them as throw backs to Thomas Jefferson liberalism. Lofty idealism that emphasizes personal freedom over constant nanny-state oversight. They tend to be anti-government and anti-control and pro-individual and pro-freedom.

The actual making of the sausage and the detailed approach to define them gets muddied pretty quickly because being libertarian means they can’t agree with themselves as to what they stand for as a political party. They are the ultimate “herding cats” party, which is why they will most likely never become a national party.

That being said, the vision of libertarians is similar to our founding fathers as far as their desire to remove government interference from day-to-day life and both the Republicans and Democrats tend to agree with them on different aspects and issues from time to time.


11 posted on 06/24/2013 11:57:35 AM PDT by Gen-X-Dad
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To: jagusafr

The libertarian party is the best source for libertarian politics, when the libertarians formed a party they had to actually write down what their politics are, rather than merely tell you whatever you want to hear.

Libertarians are a cult like fantasy, that is why they can gear their message to any audience there is, they merely give the portion that reflects whatever that particular audience prefers.

If the audience is conservative, then you tell them how you support their belief in smaller government, lower taxes, second amendment rights, etc.

If the audience is liberal, then you tell them how you support gay marriage, gays in the military, gay adoption, and abortion, open borders, drugs, pornography, a weaker military, etc.


12 posted on 06/24/2013 11:58:26 AM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: jagusafr
Libertarianism.org explains it well.
13 posted on 06/24/2013 12:02:10 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: jagusafr
The basic precept of the philosophy called "libertarian" is the non-aggression principle: that initiation of force is wrong and should not be used to achieve individual or societal goals. Defensive force or retaliatory force is not prohibited. Conclusions about what is morally right stems from the application of this basic premise.

The political party known as the Libertarian Party attempts to apply this concept to politics. It seeks to work within the political realm to achieve a more libertarian society -- a more free, limited government as envisioned in the Constitution.

Because there are differences in how a philosophy and a political party work, the philosophy (small "l" libertarian) may seem more absolute while the political party (big "l" Libertarian) can be more accepting of a more gradual approach as long as the step or trend is n the right direction.

14 posted on 06/24/2013 12:03:50 PM PDT by kathie4guv (Vote Kathie Glass for Texas governor for a secure border.)
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To: jagusafr
Libertarians just want to be able to smoke pot.

Those who don't actually smoke it, want it for
their comrades.

15 posted on 06/24/2013 12:07:15 PM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: jagusafr
I guess this sums up libertarianism best.

As the rest of us deal with the homosexual agenda and argue and fight about gay marriage, gay adoption, homosexuals in the military and see it as a fundamental fight for survival of America and of Western civilization, the libertarians have a simple, child-like, answer to the issue that they think solves all the conflict of the lessor humans, like conservatives and Christians.

1.3 Personal Relationships
Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.

16 posted on 06/24/2013 12:08:18 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: jagusafr
See private property and the nonaggression principle.

It isn't that libertarians are pro-immorality, but rather they are pro-private property and against the initiation of force.

Respect for private property is the foundation of civilization, and hence why communism is the antithesis of civilized society. Communism is social disintegration.

Any libertarian worth his salt is guided by these two overarching principles. His stance on various issues is the result of being consistent to these two ideas.

That is libertarianism as I see it; it's nothing exceptionally radical.

17 posted on 06/24/2013 12:08:47 PM PDT by Xenophon450 (Profit tells the entrepreneur that the consumers approve of his ventures; loss, that they disapprove)
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To: jagusafr

Libertarians are usually one of two things: older people that love drugs and hate taxes, or kids that are liberal but think the liberal label is lame, while libertarian sounds “edgy”. But they always vote for big government.


18 posted on 06/24/2013 12:13:16 PM PDT by DesScorp
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To: Xenophon450

Best explanation so far.


19 posted on 06/24/2013 12:14:29 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: jagusafr

A better quiz
http://www.gotoquiz.com/what_is_your_political_ideology

The World’s Smallest Quiz says you are libertarian no matter what you answer, IMHO


20 posted on 06/24/2013 12:17:20 PM PDT by Mozilla
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To: jagusafr

Actually both the World’s Smallest Quiz and the Political Ideology quiz both came back with the same result for me. I am Conservative. So both work fine.


21 posted on 06/24/2013 12:21:31 PM PDT by Mozilla
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To: jagusafr

There’s a difference between a functional (small “l”) libertarians whose motto seems to be “live and let live” and a doctrinal Libertarian who spends as much time on hair-splitting exercises as leftists - but with varying conclusions.


22 posted on 06/24/2013 12:24:00 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: Gen-X-Dad

Libertarians are throwback to classical liberals Classical liberalism places a particular emphasis on the sovereignty of the individual, with private property rights being seen as essential to individual liberty. This forms the philosophical basis for laissez-faire public policy. The ideology of the original classical liberals argued against direct democracy “for there is nothing in the bare idea of majority rule to show that majorities will always respect the rights of property or maintain rule of law.”[17] For example, James Madison argued for a constitutional republic with protections foClassical liberalism holds that individual rights are natural, inherent, or inalienable, and exist independently of government. Thomas Jefferson called these inalienable rights: “...rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’, because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”[21] For classical liberalism, rights are of a negative nature—rights that require that other individuals (and governments) refrain from interfering with individual liberty, whereas social liberalism (also called modern liberalism or welfare liberalism) holds that individuals have a right to be provided with certain benefits or services by others.[22] Unlike social liberals, classical liberals are “hostile to the welfare state.”[17] They do not have an interest in material equality but only in “equality before the law”.[23] Classical liberalism is critical of social liberalism and takes offense at group rights being pursued at the expense of individual rights.[24] r individual liberty over a pure democracy, reasoning that, in a pure democracy, a “common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole...and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party....”

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Ludwig von Misis was a classical liberal that had a significant influence on the libertarian movement in the United States in the mid-20th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

Ludwig von Misis was a classical liberal


23 posted on 06/24/2013 12:25:25 PM PDT by Rusty0604
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To: Mozilla

Ditto - conservative.


24 posted on 06/24/2013 12:31:11 PM PDT by jagusafr (the American Trinity (Liberty, In G0D We Trust, E Pluribus Unum))
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To: Resolute Conservative
Use their gray matter to stand in the gray area on all issues. Any issue that it seems contains any social undertone they immediately become tepid.

If by tepid you mean unwilling to send someone else to put a gun to the head of anyone not living their personal life the way you want them to, then yeah, color me tepid. A century ago it was calling living within the confines of the constitution.

25 posted on 06/24/2013 12:34:49 PM PDT by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
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Great...Captain Cut-n-Paste is back to stink up another thread.


26 posted on 06/24/2013 12:37:24 PM PDT by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
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To: ansel12

Agreed....”Libertarians are a cult like fantasy, that is why they can gear their message to any audience there is, they merely give the portion that reflects whatever that particular audience prefers.”

Pros at bait and switch.


27 posted on 06/24/2013 12:42:01 PM PDT by caww
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To: Mozilla

I took it...

This quiz has categorised you as a Conservative.

You believe in a limited/minimal role in the government to solve social problems, and instead believe economic growth is paramount.

It is possible you may identify with the “religious right” as well.


28 posted on 06/24/2013 12:53:43 PM PDT by caww
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To: justlurking

I always come out Conservative on these Tests....some further right then others but for the most part..conservative.


29 posted on 06/24/2013 12:57:59 PM PDT by caww
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To: jagusafr

There is the Ayn Rand libertarian and the libertarian party they are not at all the same thing.


30 posted on 06/24/2013 1:07:25 PM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric Cartman voice* 'I love you, guys')
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To: Orangedog

No that is not what I meant. I too am all about leaving one to one’s own devices (when it does not affect others). I have several libertarian acquaintances and I cannot seem to pin them down on any position. One example that I know here causes much debate is the WOD. They are all about ending it but cannot give viable alternatives to unfettered access/supply. I don’t want to debate that here and now since it is a no-win, but they don’t have any tangible solution other than to say “end it”. I don’t see that as a complete answer.


31 posted on 06/24/2013 1:11:41 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: jagusafr

Me, I don’t give a sh*t what you do.......just don’t ask me to pay for it. So, am I a Libertarian?


32 posted on 06/24/2013 1:15:03 PM PDT by bored of education
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To: jagusafr
Youtube: John Stossel's Illegal Everything

Andy Griffith did a show on this:
Youtube: Barney put the whole town in jail.

33 posted on 06/24/2013 1:17:53 PM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric Cartman voice* 'I love you, guys')
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To: bored of education

Sure, as evidenced by your cussing and beliefs, you are.

You would agree with the libertarian position in post 16.


34 posted on 06/24/2013 1:25:14 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: ansel12

Not even close. I believe children need mommies and daddies; one of each. You’re correct in that I don’t object to what two consenting adults do behind closed doors though. It’s none of my business. Lol, I didn’t know that cussin’ defined or was limited to libertarians.


35 posted on 06/24/2013 1:53:14 PM PDT by bored of education
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To: bored of education

Saying that you don’t care what people do in their bedrooms in regards to legislation and political positions of today doesn’t reveal anything, it doesn’t say anything, so this is two posts wasted trying to figure out what your point is.


36 posted on 06/24/2013 2:03:02 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: Resolute Conservative
No that is not what I meant. I too am all about leaving one to one’s own devices (when it does not affect others). I have several libertarian acquaintances and I cannot seem to pin them down on any position. One example that I know here causes much debate is the WOD. They are all about ending it but cannot give viable alternatives to unfettered access/supply.

There's the problem: you seem unwilling to accept unfettered access/supply as a consequent. But let me ask this: how much government intrusion would be acceptable? Isn't it true that the abuses we suffer today are because of the mission creep of the War on Drugs? — Why not simply leave the government out of regulation there altogether? It's not as if an employer cannot have drug-use as a grounds for termination. (Moreover, the War on Drugs feeds into the horrid idea that the Federal government is superior to the States, a mentality which is at odds with the 9 & 10th amendments. )

I don’t want to debate that here and now since it is a no-win, but they don’t have any tangible solution other than to say “end it”. I don’t see that as a complete answer.

What about the Federal Reserve? People would make all sorts of similar arguments "what will we replace it with?" ... but overlook the fact that it just didn't exist a century ago, just as the War on Drugs.

37 posted on 06/24/2013 2:23:03 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: bored of education; ansel12
Not even close. I believe children need mommies and daddies; one of each. You’re correct in that I don’t object to what two consenting adults do behind closed doors though. It’s none of my business. Lol, I didn’t know that cussin’ defined or was limited to libertarians.

With Ansel anyone who does not automatically and instinctively agree with his position is Libertarian Homosexual-loving Scum... or somesuch.
Don't bother trying a reasoned approach, he'll just keep posting that same cut-n-paste portion of text over-and-over, claiming that it can only mean what he asserts it to mean.

38 posted on 06/24/2013 2:26:37 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Mozilla; jagusafr

I ended up a 87% libertarian and 79% conservative, 22% far right, 14% liberal, 1% social democrat, and 0% socialist.

Apparently, I am a Rand Paul/Ted Cruz voter.


39 posted on 06/24/2013 2:35:34 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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To: OneWingedShark

A couple of things, don’t drag your grudges from thread to thread, and your post made no sense at all, it was merely a ridiculous and irrelevant personal attack out of nowhere.

Can you try it again and try to make it sane and relevant to what I or the poster actually posted?


40 posted on 06/24/2013 2:42:50 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: OneWingedShark

Yes good topics for discussion.

How do you answer the outright burglary and other crimes committed by users trying to get money? Regardless of how the regulation is implemented, by employer or government, addicts still need money to buy their substance so they will steal and harm others (and yes I lump alcohol in with other drugs when it comes to driving or other crimes like killing someone while intoxicated and getting off on a lesser charge than murder). Does the tax payers get to foot the bill for those drugs or worse yet the endless rehab trips? Why should I pay for their behavior?

How do you protect the unborn from an addict mother?

I can say I prefer the states in control over the feds, that way if you like dopers you can live in a state that allows whatever level of behavior you can tolerate as long as the fed does not step in a sue states that crack down for civil rights violation since in a libertarian world the individual can do whatever he/she wants.

Well, I bit the hook and asked a few questions.


41 posted on 06/24/2013 2:46:32 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Resolute Conservative
Yes good topics for discussion.

Thank you. :D

How do you answer the outright burglary and other crimes committed by users trying to get money?

Castle law doctrine and prosecution for the actual crimes committed.

Regardless of how the regulation is implemented, by employer or government, addicts still need money to buy their substance so they will steal and harm others (and yes I lump alcohol in with other drugs when it comes to driving or other crimes like killing someone while intoxicated and getting off on a lesser charge than murder). Does the tax payers get to foot the bill for those drugs or worse yet the endless rehab trips? Why should I pay for their behavior?

Why should the government operate/fund rehab centers? Why should it be involved in the medical industry/profession at all (save for the obvious malpractice suits)? Why should it be in insurance at all? If governemtn weren't involved in these things there would be no issue on rehab at all.

Are you seeing a pattern yet?
In short, why should government dictate all aspects of our lives? Why should its realm of authority extend everywhere? Is there any portion of life that it does not have jurisdiction? (Of course the government wants jurisdiction everywhere, that is its power.)

How do you protect the unborn from an addict mother?

Now there's a rubber meets the road question. I would think that it is best addressed on a personal-level, not the state, most drug-abusers I've seen are trying to cope with deep hurts that only the Great Physician (Jesus) is really equipped to deal with. (I would also draw a distinction between use of alcohol, cigarettes, etc with the abuse thereof.)

I can say I prefer the states in control over the feds, that way if you like dopers you can live in a state that allows whatever level of behavior you can tolerate as long as the fed does not step in a sue states that crack down for civil rights violation since in a libertarian world the individual can do whatever he/she wants.

That's a completely different topic, the War on Drugs is, at it's core, an assault on State sovereignty. Look at the commerce-clause they [ab]use to justify it: the States appear in between foreign countries and Indian nations (which might be thought of as Domestic/Native Countries)... if the federal government were to assert its control over commerce in a foreign country like they do here that would be an act of war (and the enforcing thereof the waging that war).
So, it naturally follows that the War on Drugs in nothing less than Treason as defined by the Constitution.

Well, I bit the hook and asked a few questions.

Thank you.

42 posted on 06/24/2013 3:17:03 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Resolute Conservative

Homeowners and the law already deal with burglars and thieves.

The social agenda that libertarianism supports, what they can’t figure out (or pretend not to), is that this left wing social agenda BREEDS and CREATES, and IMPORTS, liberal, big government voters, not right wing conservative voters calling for the end of welfare and social programs and big government.

Libertarianism contradicts itself by telling us that the creation of more broken and liberal, government dependent voters will result in them voting away welfare and government handouts.


43 posted on 06/24/2013 3:44:01 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: Resolute Conservative
My position on drugs is and has been: I want to see Walmart and Target competing to deliver the highest quality meth and crack for the lowest price. No government funded rehab, no government paid hospitals for people who overdose. The problem will burn itself out rather quickly. That's what happened a century ago until we turned the country over to the soccer moms of that time. Every generation or so there would be a short cultural episode of addiction. The addicts having perfectly legal access to all the drugs they could afford would either kick the habit or kill themselves. Easy peasy.

And with regard to the rampaging hordes robbing and burgling to support their habits, we have these marvelous inventions called firearms. Kills thugs dead. Druggie kicks in your front door...you turn the wall he's standing behind into an expressionist painting. Put a frame on the wall, paint around it and pass it off as art. You can tell your friends and neighbors when they come to visit "I call this one 'Breaking and Entering.'"

See how easy that is? Druggies get drugs, people who hate druggies get lots and lots of dead druggies, and one massive arm of the police state goes away. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

44 posted on 06/24/2013 4:15:16 PM PDT by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
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To: jagusafr
Mrs. Colonel and I were watching Stossel's "Illegal Everything" last night and it led to a discussion of what, precisely, the precepts of libertarianism are. Anybody got suggestions on a succinct, unwonky treatise or explanation?

Post 16 does that.

45 posted on 06/24/2013 8:12:24 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: Dan(9698); All

“Capital L” libertarians are nothing more than low-empathy hedonists and subclinical sociopaths (the worst kind are the 4% that live amongst us). They have no moral compass, no compassion, ambivalent pot smokers yearning for what is really anarchy. You will easily recognize these people as being “difficult for the sake of being difficult” and an “anything goes” or Libertine attitude.

“Lowercase L” libertarians are basically good people that are concerned with personal freedom, constitutiinalists... they respect the republic... think Judge Napolitano or Stossel himself.


46 posted on 06/24/2013 9:09:28 PM PDT by Rodamala
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To: Rodamala
“Lowercase L” libertarians are basically good people that are concerned with personal freedom, constitutiinalists... they respect the republic... think Judge Napolitano or Stossel himself.

Those are the people who agree with this for example.

"Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships."

47 posted on 06/24/2013 10:24:39 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarians, Gays = in all marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws.)
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To: OneWingedShark; Orangedog

If we could guarantee that no government programs would be established or continued to handle the rehab and community outreach BS then I am on board. However, I know that will never happen in our current environment. As long as the government has the ability to spend our money at will the cycle will continue and I am afraid we have passed the point of being able to reset it without some sort of conflict. The lib powers are deeply entrenched.

The only guarantee would be sweeping changes in appropriations and how the Congress can pass these bills without a vote from the people. We would almost need to micro-manage them by voting on everything where a certain value threshold was met. Talk about nothing getting done.


48 posted on 06/25/2013 6:16:48 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Resolute Conservative

I remember there being similar arguments during the communist era. Since it was so entrenched people in the communist block would ask “Getting rid of communism sounds good, but where will we get toothpaste?” And that would shut down discussion because no one had a specific answer about where it would come from. Honestly at this point if your argument is we can’t get rid of any of the police state because the liberals will spend more money, then I’m good with just augering this whole thing into the ground. I’m sick of my liberty being held hostage because people are affraid some of the tofu and tabby cat crowd trying to expand welfare.


49 posted on 06/25/2013 7:22:16 AM PDT by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
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To: Orangedog

Yes it is a cyclical type of argument. I am all for shock and awe of cutting them off as long as the feds do not interfere in the aftermath and let things sort themselves out. I just know based on the doofuses I hear talking that they don’t have to stones to stick it out. The first mother on tv that complains her kid isn’t getting X (especially food, I AM NOT advocating starving children only for shifting the responsibility to the parents or local community/churches like it used to be).


50 posted on 06/25/2013 9:38:08 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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