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Airport landing system off when plane crashed in San Francisco
Reuters ^ | July 07, 2013 | Peter Henderson and Dan Levine

Posted on 07/07/2013 8:11:12 AM PDT by george76

A navigation system that helps pilots make safe descents was turned off at San Francisco airport on Saturday when a South Korean airliner crashed and burned after undershooting the runway ...

The system, called Glide Path, is meant to help planes land in bad weather. It was clear and sunny, with light winds, when Asiana

...

San Francisco International has turned off the system for nearly the entire summer on the runway where the Asiana flight crashed, according to a notice from the airport on the Federal Aviation Administration's Web site

(Excerpt) Read more at ca.news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Japan; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: airport; asiana; asiana214; faa; fl214; flight214; ils; sanfrancisco; sfo; southkorea
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1 posted on 07/07/2013 8:11:12 AM PDT by george76
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To: george76

This is supposedly not unusual. It was off for the summer. Apparently common.

Couldn’t the pilots land w/o it?


2 posted on 07/07/2013 8:12:51 AM PDT by BunnySlippers (I LOVE BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: george76

So, what does this have to do with anything? If it was clear weather the pilot didn’t need the system or was he totally incompetent?


3 posted on 07/07/2013 8:13:42 AM PDT by calex59
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To: george76
San Francisco International has turned off the system for nearly the entire summer

Repairs?

Electricity usage "brownout" to conserve energy for air conditioning around the region?

4 posted on 07/07/2013 8:14:47 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: george76
A navigation system that helps pilots make safe descents was turned off at San Francisco airport
C'mon, real men don't need navigation safety systems.
5 posted on 07/07/2013 8:15:31 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: george76

ILS doesn’t matter on a bright clear day with light winds.

These planes are equipped with their own various radars. In particular to squaker that goes off and calling your feet from the ground.

I am curious what happened here though.


6 posted on 07/07/2013 8:15:35 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: george76; SkyDancer

Why the hell would the ILS be off?


7 posted on 07/07/2013 8:15:44 AM PDT by wastedyears (I'm a gamer not because I choose to have no life, but because I choose to have many.)
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To: george76

Has anybody blamed this on the sequester yet?


8 posted on 07/07/2013 8:19:27 AM PDT by Stosh
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To: Vendome

Just as a matter of curiosity why would two big holes be burned in the top of the fuselage ? Seems that’s where carry-on luggage would be secured in the overheads.


9 posted on 07/07/2013 8:19:39 AM PDT by mandaladon (The truth about Benghazi is all I want)
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To: oh8eleven

10 posted on 07/07/2013 8:19:47 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: george76

“The system, called Glide Path”

No it’s not!!!

It’s called ILS, Instrument Landing System.

Totally unnecessary in clear weather.


11 posted on 07/07/2013 8:20:03 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: george76
At SFO, runway 29L has a 4-light PAPI system on the left side of the runway.

When the aircraft is on the glide path, 2 lights are red, and 2 lights are white. If the aircraft is significantly below the glide path, all 4 lights are red.

12 posted on 07/07/2013 8:20:18 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: george76

Clear weather
Daylight

No excuse


13 posted on 07/07/2013 8:21:26 AM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: mandaladon

Dunno.


14 posted on 07/07/2013 8:21:55 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: dalereed
It’s called ILS, Instrument Landing System.

That's what I was thinking. I have never heard of "Glide Path".

However, I just looked up the airport info for SFO 29L. It has a 4-light PAPI, or at least it did if the plane didn't slide over it.

15 posted on 07/07/2013 8:22:05 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: dalereed

“No it’s not!!!

It’s called ILS, Instrument Landing System.

Totally unnecessary in clear weather.”

That’s not what the article said. “Glide Path is a computerized system based at an airport that calculates a plane’s path of descent and sends it to pilots in real time.”

The ILS is a different system from Glide Path. It is only a set of two radio transmitters and it doesn’t interact with the plane. Besides, if the ILS was off then they wouldn’t be able to make evening and night landings after dark at that airport.


16 posted on 07/07/2013 8:24:30 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: BunnySlippers

Yes but didn’t.


17 posted on 07/07/2013 8:25:27 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: mandaladon
Just as a matter of curiosity why would two big holes be burned in the top of the fuselage ?

The fire started after the crash, and apparently after everyone was out of the plane. The right engine is sitting next to the fuselage, and probably triggered the fire.

The 777 has a center fuel tank (at least the extended range versions). If it wasn't empty, it would have fueled the fire.

18 posted on 07/07/2013 8:27:41 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: justlurking
After 30 years of Air Traffic Control experience, most as Tower Watch Supervisor in the USAF, this was a Pilot Error Crash.
The pilot came in too steep, with too much airspeed to bleed off, so he put it into a stall position to get rid of the airspeed.
But he stalled it out and got lucky that he belly landed it into the underrun, and the closed portion of the runway, before the landing threshold and leaving a portion of the tail in the bay.

Both the PAPIs and the Glideslope were NOTAMed off due to the displaced landing threshold.
Had they been on the point of touchdown would have been too short for a safe landing.

But what I'd like to know is the compression rate and control instructions from the air traffic controllers starting with his descent from SF Center, through SF TRACON to the handoff to the tower.
Did the controllers keep him high in altitude and not allow enough of a descent rate due to traffic departing under him (the four-post operation of a busy TRACON)?
And did the controllers keep his speed up with their control instructions, until too short of a final when they handed him off to the tower, and not allow him time to bleed off the airspeed, due to the arrival rate of aircraft they were shoe-stringing down final at that time?
19 posted on 07/07/2013 8:28:01 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: Vendome

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3039821/posts?q=1&;page=601

Somewhere else in the thread he also explains it is down because of work on the runway. He is a B-777 pilot .


21 posted on 07/07/2013 8:29:48 AM PDT by ThomasThomas ("We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give.")
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To: webstersII
That’s not what the article said. “Glide Path is a computerized system based at an airport that calculates a plane’s path of descent and sends it to pilots in real time.”

That's what the article says. But, it's Reuters, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they got it totally wrong.

I'm an instrument-rated pilot, and I've never heard of a "Glide Path" system. But, it's been a while since I've flown in the cockpit, so I may have missed it.

I've done a quick look on the web, and haven't found anything about it, either.

Besides, if the ILS was off then they wouldn’t be able to make evening and night landings after dark at that airport.

An ILS isn't required to make a landing at night. It's only required when visibility is limited. SFO 29L has (or had) a 4-light PAPI, and it would have provided all the guidance that was needed.

22 posted on 07/07/2013 8:34:13 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: Yosemitest

Is “Glideslope” different from ILS?


23 posted on 07/07/2013 8:34:41 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: george76

So what? The pilots were responsible for establishing and maintaining a proper landing glide path. They obviously blew it, unless the black box shows some equipment malfunction. It was a long runway, they should have figured the landing point some hundreds of feet down the runway, not the seawall.


24 posted on 07/07/2013 8:34:51 AM PDT by RicocheT (Where neither their property nor their honor is touched, most men live content, Niccolo Machiavelli)
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To: dalereed

“thats total bullshit!!!!”

Are commercial a/c allowed to land VFR at night?


25 posted on 07/07/2013 8:35:25 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: webstersII

“Are commercial a/c allowed to land VFR at night?”

Absolutely!


26 posted on 07/07/2013 8:36:20 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: webstersII
The Glideslope (GS) is PART OF the ILS (Instrument Landing System).
You can download the approach plate here.
27 posted on 07/07/2013 8:38:05 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: dalereed

BTW, have you considered switching to decaf?

I think you are over your limit on use of exclamation points. :)


28 posted on 07/07/2013 8:38:15 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: justlurking
However, I just looked up the airport info for SFO 29L. It has a 4-light PAPI, or at least it did if the plane didn't slide over it.

So, basically this is analogous to "calling the ball" optical system for carrier landings. Sounds like this plane did the equivalent of a ramp strike.

29 posted on 07/07/2013 8:38:49 AM PDT by Flick Lives (We're going to be just like the old Soviet Union, but with free cell phones!)
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To: Yosemitest
Both the PAPIs and the Glideslope were NOTAMed off due to the displaced landing threshold.

That's interesting: I didn't check the NOTAMs.

Did they just move the threshold? I'm surprised the PAPI's were off.

30 posted on 07/07/2013 8:39:34 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: justlurking

PAPPI was out


31 posted on 07/07/2013 8:39:37 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (Unindicted Co-conspirators: The Mainstream Media)
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To: webstersII

Don’t airports have LIGHTS to make visual night landings possible?


32 posted on 07/07/2013 8:41:04 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Universal Background Check -> Registration -> Confiscation -> Oppression -> Extermination)
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To: george76
If this is the runway that comes in over the water, the pavement starts soon after land starts. I heard some news show this morning that the landing zone is about 1,000 feet into the runway, and the seawall is another 300 feet back from there, which means that the seawall is about 1,300 from the desired landing area.

So how far is a 1/4 mile when you are at landing speed? At 30 MPH, my GPS starts "turn here", and my GPS is in my car, which is on the ground on pavement, not in an airplane holding 100's of people.

This most likely is pilot error, but that approach should provide as much support as possible. It's not like you come in short and bounce in a corn-field and knock down a traffic sign; here you hit a wall. Big difference.

33 posted on 07/07/2013 8:41:09 AM PDT by Bernard (The Road To Hell is not paved with good results.)
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To: Stosh

Of course not, it’s Bush’s fault.


34 posted on 07/07/2013 8:41:53 AM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/ ?s)
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To: george76
San Francisco International has turned off the system for nearly the entire summer...

What with the sequester and all.

35 posted on 07/07/2013 8:41:54 AM PDT by TangoLimaSierra (To the left the truth looks like Right-Wing extremism.)
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To: Flick Lives
So, basically this is analogous to "calling the ball" optical system for carrier landings.

Yes, that's correct. There are a couple of different light systems used by the FAA. In the picture you posted, the aircraft is just slightly below the glideslope, with 3 red and 1 white.

However, another poster has noted that the PAPI was NOTAMed out of service.

36 posted on 07/07/2013 8:42:20 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: Yosemitest

All these ‘pilots’ here are certainly a bunch of rude a$$wipes aren’t they?


37 posted on 07/07/2013 8:42:34 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Yosemitest

“The Glideslope (GS) is PART OF the ILS (Instrument Landing System).”

Then the description in the article was incorrect (big shock).

Does 777 have the Automatic Landing System?


38 posted on 07/07/2013 8:43:36 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: justlurking

Waaaaay Back when I took flying lessons, my instructor taught me the following on VASI lights..”Red over white, you’re alright, white over red, you’re dead”.

One of those things that just sticks with you.


39 posted on 07/07/2013 8:45:14 AM PDT by SueRae (It isn't over. In God We Trust.)
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To: Yosemitest

I think you are as accurate to any assessment made. Losing the tail on the jetty is a very alarming angle to touch-down.


40 posted on 07/07/2013 8:45:16 AM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/ ?s)
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To: Yosemitest

That pictures says it all.

Also, with our lives now being surveilled by cameras on nearly every streetcorner, don’t they have cameras monitoring such mundane locations as international airport rulanding zones?


41 posted on 07/07/2013 8:45:37 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Universal Background Check -> Registration -> Confiscation -> Oppression -> Extermination)
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To: justlurking
Here are the SFO NOTAMs and here is the SFO Airport data.
42 posted on 07/07/2013 8:46:16 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: george76
No peripheral vision due to the surrounding water at threshold. Aircraft too low. Attempted gaining about 100 feet by raising nose and maybe increasing power. Power would not increasing since jet engines take moments to build thrust. Tail hit the space before threshold and broke off, Nose came down and the aircraft slammed the area prior to the threshold. Gear broke off. Plane slid on belly to where it rested and looks like the left engine tore off and rested next to fuselage. Evacuation must have occurred before fire from the resting engine. All this could have been corrected if the ILS was working. Even so if the pilot had visual on the yellow light he could have made correction on glide path seconds before being committed.

I'm damn old and ancient pilot, forgot some of the terminology. Just my thoughts. Used to come in a little high and use cross control to drop altitude at threshold and flare for fun.

43 posted on 07/07/2013 8:46:46 AM PDT by Logical me
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To: Yosemitest

Yay! Common sense post!

I think you nailed it. Look at the descent rates just a minute or two before “touchdown” and he’s really bringing it. Descending 1500’ fpm at one point, far less at another point, etc. is not a stabilized approach. The very last tick on the Flight aware chart shows the airplane trying to climb and slowing to 85 knots, STALLED IT IN. Tail was low, and hit first.

This is pilot error. Non-stabilized approach requires a go-around and he didn’t. You might question whether the controllers didn’t allow him time to descend or reduce speed, but it doesn’t matter. STABILIZED APPROACH, OR GO AROUND.


44 posted on 07/07/2013 8:47:01 AM PDT by Big Giant Head
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To: wastedyears

Good question. Out for maintenance or calibration? It was a CAVU day it appears so - questions remain - we’ll all know in a couple of weeks as soon as the MSM gets through playing the story with falsehoods of all sorts.


45 posted on 07/07/2013 8:47:10 AM PDT by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: george76

Not sure, haven’t checked but SFO should have a VASI system as a backup.


46 posted on 07/07/2013 8:48:57 AM PDT by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Gaffer

Don’t you think that because one bad pilot screws up a landing and people get killed and many get hurt, that they have a reason to be angry?


47 posted on 07/07/2013 8:49:08 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Atlas Sneezed
I don't know.
But the RADAR playback, with all the other traffic at the time will tell most of the story.
Voice tapes will tell most of the rest of the story, and the aircraft "Black (Orange) Boxes will finish the story.
48 posted on 07/07/2013 8:51:53 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: george76

In 1980`s(?) another pass. plane pilot just ditched in the bay next to the airport runway coz it`s very shallow there.
But it got stuck in the mud and they had to crane it out.
Water landings there and next to OAK are nice shallow cushions if you can get`em.


49 posted on 07/07/2013 8:52:33 AM PDT by bunkerhill7 (("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.))
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To: webstersII

“...Besides, if the ILS was off then they wouldn’t be able to make evening and night landings after dark at that airport....”

This statement is not correct. ILS is not required for night landings, it is only required for poor weather. Also, there are other instrument approaches, based on GPS, to Runway 28L that provide vertical guidance.


50 posted on 07/07/2013 8:52:48 AM PDT by ops33 (Senior Master Sergeant, USAF (Retired))
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