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Asiana says pilot of crashed plane was in training
Reuters ^ | July 7, 2013 | by Hyunjoo Jin

Posted on 07/07/2013 8:19:47 PM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer

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To: Oldeconomybuyer; All
This confirms what I initially suspected from the start. Someone in the cockpit really screwed the pooch as in a rookie was in command and botched the landing. SFO is not a particularly difficult approach and landing but it has its quirks that can surprise a rookie and have the situation spiral out of control very quickly.

When an airline spokes person said there were 3 pilots in the cockpit with over 10,000 hrs between them and one had over 9,000 hrs that was a red flag as in 1 was very experienced and the other 2 were relative rookies.

There is a pretty good break down of the situation on Ticker Forum by a user Eleua.He appears to be a pilot of B-767-300s and knows SFO quirks.
http://tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=222505&page=2

The post is about half way down the page.

51 posted on 07/07/2013 10:11:50 PM PDT by Polynikes (What would Walt Kowalski do. In the meantime "GET OFF MY LAWN")
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

In training? Most likely he was in training to learn the English Language to fly the plane & take directions in English from ground control. There are 6 levels to English language proficiency for pilots to master. He must have been at the lower end of the 6scale. This has been an ongoing problem w/Korean pilots whether it be Asiana or Korean Air


52 posted on 07/07/2013 11:08:01 PM PDT by dswyndon (haven't found a good one yet)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

I just watched an episode of “Running Man” where a lot of the show took place at an Asiana Airline training facility. wierd


53 posted on 07/07/2013 11:44:37 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: Gay State Conservative

I hope that was a FAIL


54 posted on 07/07/2013 11:45:19 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: hamboy

This deference to the chain of command resulted in several Korean Air Lines crashes ~15 years ago. As most of KAL’s pilots came up through the military, KAL identified the problem but was unable to wash it out of them.

In desperation, KAL brought in some round-eye pilots and safety men who did succeed in changing this mind set. KAL has since enjoyed a much improved safety record


55 posted on 07/07/2013 11:46:27 PM PDT by punchamullah
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To: jiggyboy

Koreans show respect to elders. Having a younger trainer could very well have been a big problem. Now they could spend years in shame- being chased out of shops by salt throwing ahjummas.


56 posted on 07/07/2013 11:51:37 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: 9YearLurker

Park Kim annd Lee make up something like 40 percent of the names. Rest assured they more likely used titles.


57 posted on 07/07/2013 11:55:42 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: bunkerhill7

Don’t they normally put big “student driver” signs on the vehicle???


58 posted on 07/08/2013 12:13:47 AM PDT by BunnySlippers (I LOVE BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: punchamullah

Actually KAL has worst record, second from Aeroplot. Now that there’s 2nd nation’s international airline it will share the same pilot-in-command “supremo-macho” mindset.


59 posted on 07/08/2013 12:55:23 AM PDT by hamboy
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To: GeronL

I think it’s an even higher percentage than that.


60 posted on 07/08/2013 2:08:24 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Polynikes

There’s also a question from Uwe on page 3 that Eleua responds to, that speaks to some of the cultural issues that may have been contributory. Worthwhile.


61 posted on 07/08/2013 2:30:08 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
Lee, who started his career at Asiana as an intern in 1994, has 9,793 hours of flying experience, but only 43 hours with the Boeing 777 jet.

Well, he's hardly a rookie, and I still want to know what happened to the left engine.

62 posted on 07/08/2013 3:26:56 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: dragnet2

“Too slow, too low, and way too short.”

That was at the end.

Earlier in the approach they were way too high (over 600 ft over where they should have been).

The flightaware data shows this was a very bad approach from the start.


63 posted on 07/08/2013 4:14:27 AM PDT by bluecat6 ("All non-denial denials. They doubt our ancestry, but they don't say the story isn't accurate. ")
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

Why are so many blaming the pilot before a full investigation is done? Every single pilot flying on every airline today was “in training” at one time.


64 posted on 07/08/2013 6:31:47 AM PDT by toldyou (Even if the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas.)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
Epic fail.

Look for Obama to name Lee Kang-kook the next head of The FAA.

65 posted on 07/08/2013 7:42:11 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
"He has a lot of experience and previously flown to San Francisco on different planes including the B747... and he was assisted by another pilot who has more experience with the 777," the spokeswoman said

That is why we still have two in the cockpit.

Airliner Cockpit Concepts Mulled: Solo And Unmanned

Aviation Week & Space Technology Jun 24, 2013 , p. 20 Pierre Sparaco

Move to one-person cockpits could be quietly taking its first steps
Printed headline: The End of Redundancy
Do you remember Michael O'Leary's ironic remark about the envisioned one-pilot flight crew? Ryanair 's chief executive last year claimed direct operating costs could be significantly reduced by eliminating the first officer on commercial flights
66 posted on 07/08/2013 7:56:27 AM PDT by Cheerio (Barry Hussein Soetoro-0bama=The Complete Destruction of American Capitalism)
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To: tpmintx

I’m not sure if it was in “The Checklist Manifesto” or one of the Malcolm Gladwell books, but there was a Korean jumbo jet that crashed and killed all on board some decades ago because a problem seen by the copilot was not effectively communicated to the Captain due an excess of cultural deference to authority.

The book said that this problem had been addressed, but perhaps it hasn’t.


67 posted on 07/08/2013 8:34:26 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Universal Background Check -> Registration -> Confiscation -> Oppression -> Extermination)
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To: xjcsa

Isn’t it possible that captain was senior overall, but just new on the 777?


68 posted on 07/08/2013 8:38:47 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Universal Background Check -> Registration -> Confiscation -> Oppression -> Extermination)
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To: bunkerhill7

More than once, I have had to provide directions to CTA (Chicago) bus drivers to the location of next stop. In fairness, Chicago tears up streets annually to keep the wrinkles out of the union bosses’ bellies. Yet, a little pre-shift prep should be mandatory.


69 posted on 07/08/2013 8:41:39 AM PDT by CreviceTool ( Bill Clinton: "Ted, this guy should have been getting our baggage, fetching our coffee,")
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To: CreviceTool

Conditions sunny, 10 mile visibility, with 8 mph winds It was SF Airport ground systems fault, PLEASE!!!


70 posted on 07/08/2013 8:49:32 AM PDT by mason-dixon (As Mason said to Dixon, you have to draw the line somewhere.)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

If this was an American company I doubt they would be this forth coming to the public. Hey if this was the U.S. govt they would outright lie to the public.


71 posted on 07/08/2013 8:51:38 AM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: Atlas Sneezed

Maybe, but the captains doing the training tend to be pretty senior. Either way, there should have been plenty of total experience on that flight deck for a safe flight. I’m sure one area that will get a close look in the investigation is the crew’s use – or non-use – of crew resource management methods.


72 posted on 07/08/2013 8:54:37 AM PDT by xjcsa (Ridiculing the ridiculous since the day I was born.)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Then shouldn’t the fault lie more with the check pilot not monitoring the situation closely enough and not correcting the trainee pilot’s error before it caused the crash?


73 posted on 07/08/2013 8:54:55 AM PDT by 0.E.O
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To: 0.E.O
Then shouldn’t the fault lie more with the check pilot not monitoring the situation closely enough and not correcting the trainee pilot’s error before it caused the crash?

Having never *flown* an aircraft and never having flown anything but coach (except on two occasions) I couldn't answer that.I don't have the first clue who's responsible for what in the cockpit of a 777.

74 posted on 07/08/2013 9:03:48 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (The Civil Servants Are No Longer Servants...Or Civil.)
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To: AlexW
Every pilot has a first time for landing at ANY airport.

If it's his first time, or he has low hours in that particular plane, then he should be "co pilot" until he DOES have experience, regardless of whether, organizationally, he's the higher-ranked pilot.

75 posted on 07/08/2013 9:06:26 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Lmo56

They may not know which pilot until the day of the flight.


76 posted on 07/08/2013 9:57:04 AM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

Had the pilot been Japanese, he might have to be put on suicide watch. Two dead, lots hurting, his fault; point of honor.


77 posted on 07/08/2013 10:01:33 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: 9YearLurker
If they were both Captain Lee perhaps they confused themselves.

They needed to turn starboard but could only turn leeward.

78 posted on 07/08/2013 10:05:19 AM PDT by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: palmer

Very good.


79 posted on 07/08/2013 10:26:37 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: ltc8k6

From the looks of it, that plane performed spectacularly. Cracked off the tail, belly-flopped on the runway and still intact? That is pretty amazing and testament to the fortitude of American-made Boeing aircraft.


80 posted on 07/08/2013 10:48:06 AM PDT by ponygirl (Be Breitbart.)
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To: Bobalu

Cultural issues. He probably was hesitant to challenge the captain.

There was another South Korean airline accident due to this issue.


81 posted on 07/08/2013 11:08:17 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
The pilot has a LOT of hours flying the 737--but only 43 hours on the 777. One major concern of mine is whether the pilot--because of his unfamiliarity of the instrument panel of the 777--did not follow proper procedures for a full-manual landing approach and emergency go-around.
82 posted on 07/08/2013 11:23:10 AM PDT by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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To: bluecat6

In fact, there is now questions on whether the pilot enabled an RNAV approach, which uses GPS data to guide the aircraft to within 20 feet accuracy in latitude, longitude and altitude (20 feet because of the much bigger GPS receiving antennas on commercial airliners compared to the receiving antennas on portable GPS receivers or your cellphone). Some have speculated that if the pilot had enabled an RNAV approach, the plane would have flown on the proper final glide path within 20 feet accuracy for a proper landing.


83 posted on 07/08/2013 11:30:18 AM PDT by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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OK... Why would a pilot in training be landing a plane with passengers aboard???? Should not passenger aboard landings be reserved for when he was fully certified for the left seat.


84 posted on 07/08/2013 11:58:54 AM PDT by thegrump
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To: thegrump

The rocks at the end of the runway seawall were too high.

That is the explaination you would get from the Obama Admin.


85 posted on 07/08/2013 12:47:14 PM PDT by Col Frank Slade
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To: Strategerist
So are you willing to spend a $100-$200 more per ticket to allow airlines to fly around empty airplanes to all the airports they fly to so that pilots can build up what you consider sufficient hours in a given aircraft landing at given airports?

C'mon now. You really think that's the only option to fly empty 777s as a dry run? If so, there would be many more crashes.

86 posted on 07/08/2013 12:47:20 PM PDT by tsowellfan
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To: moviefan8
Well, hopefully he doesn’t return to the cockpit. He failed.

I think his flying career with Asiana is over. He will be lucky to get a crop dusting job.

87 posted on 07/08/2013 12:53:43 PM PDT by Monkey Face (No guns, no freedom. Know guns, know freedom!)
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To: jiggyboy

I thot we got rid of that cultural krap in cockpits, ordnance disposal facilities, heavy machinery operations, surgical operating rooms, bomb fusing rooms and all the rest of places where a wrong move can be fatal about a half century ago? Do you actually suppose all four of these geniuses in the cockpit ( OK, I’m changing it to cocklesspit) flying a half billion dollars worth of hardware were so freaking hung up on the fine points of oriental etiquet that they couldn’t bring themselves to say something as simple as “get it up”? Hitting a San Fran Bay breakwater clearly is going to save a lot of FACE!


88 posted on 07/08/2013 1:05:40 PM PDT by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: thegrump

The Boeing 777 is one of the most technically advanced aircraft in service. Unless I have misread the published manuals this aircraft has more than one system monitoring each and every facet required in maintaining a safe environment. If this is the case, then why no audio/visual alarms notifying the pilots their approach was flawed? Any audio communications between this crew and the tower is void of any traditional alarms, until 7 or so seconds from a heroic touchdown that saved all but 2 souls. Am I to believe that this marvel of modern flying machines will not calculate current data, project out future points in time, and alarm those in control adjustments must be made before the point of no return is breached? At 7 seconds from demise, it seems the plane has failed to notify and bypassed any fail safe, installed systems to ensure no critical event occurs. I thought such aircraft would take over flying if a critical event is imminent. If this ability to take control has been disabled, then many alarms would be rings loud. But if this advanced machine is displaying safe information to the pilots, I would assume this would be the same information the safety measures are using to decide if auto measures are needed. This is troublesome to me. The only safety measure that kicked in is the shaking that occurs (stick shaker) that is directly associated to engine stall...but why didn’t other alarms sound, suggesting a stall was imminent?
This is information contained within the manual posted via the link:

‘‘Fault Tolerance” is a term that is used to define the ability of any system to withstand single or multiple failures which results in either no loss of functionality or a known loss of functionality or reduced level of redundancy while maintaining the required level of safety. It does not, however, define any particular method that is used for this purpose. There are two major classes of faults that any system design must deal with. These are

• A failure which results in some particular component becoming totally inoperative. An example of this would be a loss of power to some electronic component, such that it no longer performs its intended function.

• A failure which results in some particular component remaining active, but the functionality it provides is in error. An example of this failure would be a Low Range Radio Altimeter whose output is indicating the airplane is at an altitude 500 ft above the ground when the airplane is actually 200 ft above the ground.

http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_11.pdf

I fail to understand how a pilot can be hung out to dry without first showing how all safety systems and measures could be disabled, and all alarms keep at bay during all communications during approach. Help me understand what I’m missing.


89 posted on 07/08/2013 1:13:10 PM PDT by Golfinsocal
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To: moviefan8

“Well, hopefully he doesn’t return to the cockpit. He failed.”

Let’s hope he didn’t say something like “God is great” (as Big Media likes to use the expression).

The Fraud tried to get Timothy W. Dorsey promoted to ADMIRAL, who shot down a US F-4 ~25 years ago.


90 posted on 07/08/2013 1:31:59 PM PDT by treetopsandroofs (Had FDR been GOP, there would have been no World Wars, just "The Great War" and "Roosevelt's Wars".)
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To: Lmo56

See post 37


91 posted on 07/08/2013 1:54:19 PM PDT by oxcart (Journalism [Sic])
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

OJT is really a no/no when landing a full load of passengers at an airport with the landing strip on the water on one side and with hard pavement on the other side.


92 posted on 07/08/2013 2:28:33 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (Having a discussion with liberals is like shearing pigs. Lots of squealing & little fleece!)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

He had 10,000 hours of flight time on the 747. He’s not a rookie.


93 posted on 07/08/2013 3:50:28 PM PDT by Old Yeller (Goodbye America. Glad the majority of my years were spent during the good days.)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

It looks like they set up a bad approach and then tried to salvage the landing instead of instituting a missed approach procedure. It appears they got low and slow which is ALWAYS a bad combination.


94 posted on 07/08/2013 9:19:51 PM PDT by teletech (Say NO to RINOS!)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

“Thank You for Flying with Harbor Freight, we hope you enjoyed your flight”


95 posted on 07/08/2013 10:02:02 PM PDT by KTM rider ( Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb)
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To: KTM rider

You always hope that neither our doctor or your pilot are novices.


96 posted on 07/08/2013 10:03:30 PM PDT by bannie
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To: bannie

NOR!


97 posted on 07/08/2013 10:04:24 PM PDT by bannie
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

As far as I’m aware, having pilots in training fly passenger planes is standard operating procedure. That’s one of the reasons for having co-pilots, so in this regard, the airline did nothing wrong as far as policy is concerned. If the trainee was failing to execute his tasks, the copilot should have stepped in.


98 posted on 07/09/2013 9:07:22 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
His name should be Wei-Too-Low.

CC

99 posted on 07/09/2013 11:51:07 AM PDT by Celtic Conservative (tease not the dragon for thou art crunchy when roasted and taste good with ketchup)
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