Skip to comments.Asiana says pilot of crashed plane was in training
Posted on 07/07/2013 8:19:47 PM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer
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When an airline spokes person said there were 3 pilots in the cockpit with over 10,000 hrs between them and one had over 9,000 hrs that was a red flag as in 1 was very experienced and the other 2 were relative rookies.
There is a pretty good break down of the situation on Ticker Forum by a user Eleua.He appears to be a pilot of B-767-300s and knows SFO quirks.
The post is about half way down the page.
In training? Most likely he was in training to learn the English Language to fly the plane & take directions in English from ground control. There are 6 levels to English language proficiency for pilots to master. He must have been at the lower end of the 6scale. This has been an ongoing problem w/Korean pilots whether it be Asiana or Korean Air
I just watched an episode of “Running Man” where a lot of the show took place at an Asiana Airline training facility. wierd
I hope that was a FAIL
This deference to the chain of command resulted in several Korean Air Lines crashes ~15 years ago. As most of KAL’s pilots came up through the military, KAL identified the problem but was unable to wash it out of them.
In desperation, KAL brought in some round-eye pilots and safety men who did succeed in changing this mind set. KAL has since enjoyed a much improved safety record
Koreans show respect to elders. Having a younger trainer could very well have been a big problem. Now they could spend years in shame- being chased out of shops by salt throwing ahjummas.
Park Kim annd Lee make up something like 40 percent of the names. Rest assured they more likely used titles.
Don’t they normally put big “student driver” signs on the vehicle???
Actually KAL has worst record, second from Aeroplot. Now that there’s 2nd nation’s international airline it will share the same pilot-in-command “supremo-macho” mindset.
I think it’s an even higher percentage than that.
There’s also a question from Uwe on page 3 that Eleua responds to, that speaks to some of the cultural issues that may have been contributory. Worthwhile.
Well, he's hardly a rookie, and I still want to know what happened to the left engine.
“Too slow, too low, and way too short.”
That was at the end.
Earlier in the approach they were way too high (over 600 ft over where they should have been).
The flightaware data shows this was a very bad approach from the start.
Why are so many blaming the pilot before a full investigation is done? Every single pilot flying on every airline today was “in training” at one time.
Look for Obama to name Lee Kang-kook the next head of The FAA.
I’m not sure if it was in “The Checklist Manifesto” or one of the Malcolm Gladwell books, but there was a Korean jumbo jet that crashed and killed all on board some decades ago because a problem seen by the copilot was not effectively communicated to the Captain due an excess of cultural deference to authority.
The book said that this problem had been addressed, but perhaps it hasn’t.
Isn’t it possible that captain was senior overall, but just new on the 777?
More than once, I have had to provide directions to CTA (Chicago) bus drivers to the location of next stop. In fairness, Chicago tears up streets annually to keep the wrinkles out of the union bosses’ bellies. Yet, a little pre-shift prep should be mandatory.
Conditions sunny, 10 mile visibility, with 8 mph winds It was SF Airport ground systems fault, PLEASE!!!
If this was an American company I doubt they would be this forth coming to the public. Hey if this was the U.S. govt they would outright lie to the public.
Maybe, but the captains doing the training tend to be pretty senior. Either way, there should have been plenty of total experience on that flight deck for a safe flight. I’m sure one area that will get a close look in the investigation is the crew’s use or non-use of crew resource management methods.
Then shouldn’t the fault lie more with the check pilot not monitoring the situation closely enough and not correcting the trainee pilot’s error before it caused the crash?
Having never *flown* an aircraft and never having flown anything but coach (except on two occasions) I couldn't answer that.I don't have the first clue who's responsible for what in the cockpit of a 777.
If it's his first time, or he has low hours in that particular plane, then he should be "co pilot" until he DOES have experience, regardless of whether, organizationally, he's the higher-ranked pilot.
They may not know which pilot until the day of the flight.
Had the pilot been Japanese, he might have to be put on suicide watch. Two dead, lots hurting, his fault; point of honor.
They needed to turn starboard but could only turn leeward.
From the looks of it, that plane performed spectacularly. Cracked off the tail, belly-flopped on the runway and still intact? That is pretty amazing and testament to the fortitude of American-made Boeing aircraft.
Cultural issues. He probably was hesitant to challenge the captain.
There was another South Korean airline accident due to this issue.
In fact, there is now questions on whether the pilot enabled an RNAV approach, which uses GPS data to guide the aircraft to within 20 feet accuracy in latitude, longitude and altitude (20 feet because of the much bigger GPS receiving antennas on commercial airliners compared to the receiving antennas on portable GPS receivers or your cellphone). Some have speculated that if the pilot had enabled an RNAV approach, the plane would have flown on the proper final glide path within 20 feet accuracy for a proper landing.
OK... Why would a pilot in training be landing a plane with passengers aboard???? Should not passenger aboard landings be reserved for when he was fully certified for the left seat.
The rocks at the end of the runway seawall were too high.
That is the explaination you would get from the Obama Admin.
C'mon now. You really think that's the only option to fly empty 777s as a dry run? If so, there would be many more crashes.
I think his flying career with Asiana is over. He will be lucky to get a crop dusting job.
I thot we got rid of that cultural krap in cockpits, ordnance disposal facilities, heavy machinery operations, surgical operating rooms, bomb fusing rooms and all the rest of places where a wrong move can be fatal about a half century ago? Do you actually suppose all four of these geniuses in the cockpit ( OK, I’m changing it to cocklesspit) flying a half billion dollars worth of hardware were so freaking hung up on the fine points of oriental etiquet that they couldn’t bring themselves to say something as simple as “get it up”? Hitting a San Fran Bay breakwater clearly is going to save a lot of FACE!
The Boeing 777 is one of the most technically advanced aircraft in service. Unless I have misread the published manuals this aircraft has more than one system monitoring each and every facet required in maintaining a safe environment. If this is the case, then why no audio/visual alarms notifying the pilots their approach was flawed? Any audio communications between this crew and the tower is void of any traditional alarms, until 7 or so seconds from a heroic touchdown that saved all but 2 souls. Am I to believe that this marvel of modern flying machines will not calculate current data, project out future points in time, and alarm those in control adjustments must be made before the point of no return is breached? At 7 seconds from demise, it seems the plane has failed to notify and bypassed any fail safe, installed systems to ensure no critical event occurs. I thought such aircraft would take over flying if a critical event is imminent. If this ability to take control has been disabled, then many alarms would be rings loud. But if this advanced machine is displaying safe information to the pilots, I would assume this would be the same information the safety measures are using to decide if auto measures are needed. This is troublesome to me. The only safety measure that kicked in is the shaking that occurs (stick shaker) that is directly associated to engine stall...but why didn’t other alarms sound, suggesting a stall was imminent?
This is information contained within the manual posted via the link:
Fault Tolerance is a term that is used to define the ability of any system to withstand single or multiple failures which results in either no loss of functionality or a known loss of functionality or reduced level of redundancy while maintaining the required level of safety. It does not, however, define any particular method that is used for this purpose. There are two major classes of faults that any system design must deal with. These are
A failure which results in some particular component becoming totally inoperative. An example of this would be a loss of power to some electronic component, such that it no longer performs its intended function.
A failure which results in some particular component remaining active, but the functionality it provides is in error. An example of this failure would be a Low Range Radio Altimeter whose output is indicating the airplane is at an altitude 500 ft above the ground when the airplane is actually 200 ft above the ground.
I fail to understand how a pilot can be hung out to dry without first showing how all safety systems and measures could be disabled, and all alarms keep at bay during all communications during approach. Help me understand what I’m missing.
“Well, hopefully he doesnt return to the cockpit. He failed.”
Let’s hope he didn’t say something like “God is great” (as Big Media likes to use the expression).
The Fraud tried to get Timothy W. Dorsey promoted to ADMIRAL, who shot down a US F-4 ~25 years ago.
See post 37
OJT is really a no/no when landing a full load of passengers at an airport with the landing strip on the water on one side and with hard pavement on the other side.
He had 10,000 hours of flight time on the 747. He’s not a rookie.
It looks like they set up a bad approach and then tried to salvage the landing instead of instituting a missed approach procedure. It appears they got low and slow which is ALWAYS a bad combination.
“Thank You for Flying with Harbor Freight, we hope you enjoyed your flight”
You always hope that neither our doctor or your pilot are novices.
As far as I’m aware, having pilots in training fly passenger planes is standard operating procedure. That’s one of the reasons for having co-pilots, so in this regard, the airline did nothing wrong as far as policy is concerned. If the trainee was failing to execute his tasks, the copilot should have stepped in.