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Obama's Signs Executive Action: If a Child 'Confesses' ... Mommy & Daddy Have a Gun...
RedFlagNews.com (blog) ^ | June 25, 2013 | Michael Connelly

Posted on 07/12/2013 7:27:51 PM PDT by holden

[snip]
one of the 23 so called executive actions on gun control Obama recently signed called for doctors to ask their patients if they owned a firearm. This is not just directed at psychiatrists, but at all physicians including pediatricians. In other words, if your child confesses that Mommy and Daddy have a gun in the house that could conceivably be considered the actions of mentally defective individuals and you could be disarmed. Once we are disarmed we cease to be citizens and become subjects.

(Excerpt) Read more at redflagnews.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; benghazi; executiveorders; fastandfurious; guncontrol; impeachnow; irs; obama; secondamendment; tyranny
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Full Title: Obama's Signs Executive Action: If a Child 'Confesses' to a Pediatrician that Mommy & Daddy Have a Gun in the House, Feds Can Disarm Parents…

purposeful erosion of the Second Amendment that will take years to adjudicate and reach SCOTUS

1 posted on 07/12/2013 7:27:51 PM PDT by holden
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To: holden

My niece is a pediatric nurse and she says it’s now standard procedure to ask parents *and* kids if there are guns in their house.


2 posted on 07/12/2013 7:30:30 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (The Civil Servants Are No Longer Servants...Or Civil.)
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To: holden
Hey, if 0 can dictate what you eat, what you drive, where you live, what you can earn, what you pay for energy,where and when you get health care and a thousand other things, why can't he dictate what sort of things you can have in your possession?

It's for the children after all.

3 posted on 07/12/2013 7:33:29 PM PDT by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: holden
So will we be Mirandized before seeing the doctor? Or will we be sworn in, like witnesses in court?

"Do you swear that the conversation you are about to have with your doctor is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?"

Where are we?

4 posted on 07/12/2013 7:33:51 PM PDT by Semper911 (When you want to rob Peter to pay Paul, you'll always have the support of Paul.)
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To: Gay State Conservative

When I went to the pediatrician’s office with my daughter for one of our grandchildren’s check-ups, I could not believe the intrusive, outrageous questions they asked!

To top it all, apparently doctors now have to look at a child’s genitals at every visit for signs of abuse. Just as parents are telling their kids to cover up and not let strangers into their pants, now the poor docs have to at least take a quick look. I’m sure little girls are not happy about it.

Why don’t doctors rebel and tell the gov’t to get lost? I can’t believe this is the USA.


5 posted on 07/12/2013 7:34:40 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: holden

It’s time...


6 posted on 07/12/2013 7:36:14 PM PDT by meyer (What would John Hancock do?)
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To: holden

Emperor Hussein’s “executive order” vs The Constitution - that kenyan bastard can go straight back to hell!


7 posted on 07/12/2013 7:38:39 PM PDT by 21st Century Crusader (August 26, 1191)
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To: holden

I have taught my daughter that she asked whether there is a gun in her house by a doctor, teacher or other authority figure, the only correct answer is: “I’m sorry, but we never talk about our home security arrangements with anybody outside of our immediate family.”


8 posted on 07/12/2013 7:39:07 PM PDT by Maceman (Just say "NO" to tyranny.)
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To: Gay State Conservative
My niece is a pediatric nurse and she says it’s now standard procedure to ask parents *and* kids if there are guns in their house.

No need to ask that here in West Texas. The answer would be yes 90 % of the time.

9 posted on 07/12/2013 7:39:38 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: holden; All

(originally a PDF file)

FIREARMS SAFETY COUNSELING REPRESENTATION:
PHYSICIAN QUALIFICATIONS AND LIABILITY

Part One: Qualifications

I affirm that I am certified to offer (Name of Patient: ), herineafter referred to as
“the Patient”, qualified advice about firearms safety in the home, having received:

Specify Course(s) of Study:

from:
Specify Institution(s)

on:
Specify Course Completion Date(s):

resulting in:
Specify Accreditation(s), Certification(s), License(s) etc.:

Check one, as appropriate:

___ I represent that I have reviewed applicable scientific literature pertaining to defensive gun use and beneficial results of private
firearms ownership. I further represent that I have reviewed all other relevant home safety issues with the Patient, including those
relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors, garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks
for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools,
power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks, knives, etc. I also acknowledge, by receiving this document, I
have been made aware that, in his inaugural address before the American Medical Association on June 20, 2001, new president
Richard Corlin, MD, admitted “What we don’t know about violence and guns is literally killing us...researchers do not have the data
to tell how kids get guns, if trigger locks work, what the warning signs of violence in schools and at the workplace are and other
critical questions due to lack of research funding.” (UPI). In spite of this admission, I represent that I have sufficient data and
expertise to provide expert and clinically sound advice to patients regarding firearms in the home.

OR

___ I am knowingly engaging in Home/Firearms Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in Risk
Management, and; I have not reviewed applicable scientific literature pertaining to defensive gun use and beneficial results of
private firearms ownership.

Part Two: Liability

I have determined, from a review of my medical malpractice insurance, that if I engage in an activity for

which I am not certified, such as Firearms Safety Counseling, the carrier (check one, as appropriate):

___ will

___ will not
cover lawsuits resulting from neglect, lack of qualification, etc.

Insurance Carrier name, address and policy number insuring me for firearms safety expertise:

I further warrant that, should the Patient follow my firearm safety counseling and remove from the home and/or disable firearms
with trigger locks or other mechanisms, and if the patient or a family member, friend or visitor is subsequently injured or killed as a
result of said removal or disabling, that my malpractice insurance and/or personal assets will cover all actual and punitive damages
resulting from a lawsuit initiated by the patient, the patient’s legal reprerentative, or the patient’s survivors.

Signature of attesting physician and date: __________________________________________________

Name of attesting physician (please print):__________________________________________________

Signature of patient and date: ____________________________________________________________

Name of patient (please print):____________________________________________________________

Patient: Indicate if physician “REFUSED TO SIGN.” Have physician place a copy in your chart/medical record.

Risk Management Advice to Physicians and Malpractice Insurance Providers: Don’t Borrow Trouble

© 2000 by Joe Horn crowtalk@theriver.com

One of the best games in town is litigation, and litigating against physicians is even more popular than suing gun manufacturers. Physicians
and their malpractice insurance carriers are well aware that litigators are constantly looking for new opportunities to sue. Let’s talk about one of
those new areas of liability exposure.

Nowadays, many physicians and other health care providers are engaging in the very risky, well intentioned, albeit naive and politically
inspired business of asking their patients about ownership, maintenance and storage of firearms in the home, and even removal of those
firearms from the home. Some could argue that this is a “boundary violation,” and it probably is, but there is another very valid reason why
these professionals should NOT engage in this practice — MASSIVE LIABILITY.

Physicians are licensed and certified in the practice of medicine, the treatment of illnesses and injuries, and in preventative activities. They
may advise or answer questions about those issues. However, when physicians give advice about firearms safety in the home, without
certification in that field, and without physically INSPECTING that particular home and those particular firearms, they are functioning outside the
practice of medicine.

Furthermore, if they fail to review the gamut of safety issues in the home, such as those relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors,
garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning
chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools, power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks,
knives, and on and on, well, you get the drift. A litigator could easily accuse that physician of being NEGLIGENT for not covering whichever one
of those things that ultimately led to the death or injury of a child or any one in the family or even a visitor to the patient’s home.

To engage in Home Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in home safety and Risk Management and to
concentrate on one small politically correct area, i.e., firearms to the neglect of ALL of the other safety issues in the modern home, is to invite a
lawsuit because the safety counselor, (Physician) Knew, Could have known or Should have known that there were other dangers to the
occupants of that house more immediate than firearms. Things like swimming pools, buckets of water, and chemicals in homes are involved in
the death or injury of many more children than accidental firearms discharge [ Source: CDC.] Firearms are a statistically small, nearly negligible
fraction of the items involved in home injuries. Physicians SHOULD know that. So, why all of a sudden do some physicians consider
themselves to be firearms and home safety experts? Where is their concern for all the other home safety issues that they DON’T cover with
their patients?

Once physicians start down this path of home safety counseling, they are completely on their own. A review of their medical malpractice
insurance will reveal that if they engage in an activity for which they are not certified, the carrier will not cover them if (or when) they are sued.

Consider a physician asking the following questions of his or her malpractice insurance carrier:


One of my patients is suing me for NOT warning them that furniture polish was poisonous and their child drank it and died. I only warned
them about firearms, drugs and alcohol. Am I covered for counseling patients about firearms safety while not mentioning and giving
preventative advice about ll the other dangers in the home, and doing so without formal training or certification in any aspect of home
safety risk management? You know their answer.

How much training and certification do I need to become a Home Safety Expert Doctor? They will tell you that you are either a pediatrician
or you are the National Safety Council. But, you don’t have certification to do the National Safety Council’s job for them.
Homeowners and parents are civilly or criminally responsible for the safety or lack thereof in their homes. My advice to physicians is to not
borrow trouble by presuming to be able to dispense safety advice outside your area of expertise: the practice of medicine. Your insurance
carrier will love you if you simply treat injuries and illnesses, dispense advice on how to care for sick or injured persons, manage sanitation
problems and try to prevent disease, but stay out of the Risk Management business unless you are trained and certified to do it. For example,

E.R. doctors do not tell accident victims how to drive safely.
Now, let’s discuss the very serious issues involving the lawful possession and use of firearms for self and home defense, and the danger and
liabilities associated with advising patients to severely encumber the firearm(s) with locked storage, or advising the patient to remove them
entirely. Patient X is told by Doctor Y to remove or lock up a firearm so it is not accessible. Patient X, does as counseled and has no firearm
available at close at hand. Subsequently, patient is then the victim of a home invasion and calls 911, but the police are buried in calls and don’t
arrive for 20 minutes during which time Patient X is raped, robbed and murdered. Anyone can see the liability issue here, particularly Risk
Management specialists and liability insurance carriers.

It’s just a matter of *when* and not *if* this will happen. Sooner or later, it will - if a home invasion takes place and Patient X takes Doctor Y’s
advice.

Now, imagine what follows this horrendous event. Who is to blame? The perpetrator is long gone, and even so, the Plaintiff’s litigator will state
that the perpetrator could have been neutralized by the appropriate lawful defensive use of a firearm, which *had* been in the home, but was no
longer available to the deceased/injured because he/she followed a Physician’s *expert* advice to render him/herself and his/her home
defenseless against violent crime.

The Litigator will further argue that the Physician Knew, Could have known, Should have known that removing a firearm from use for home
defense would result in harm to the patient if and when a crime was committed against the patient in the home, as any reasonable person
would have surmised.

If one acknowledges the already dangerous general liability of home safety counseling and then adds the very risky practice of advising
patients to disarm themselves in the face of the reality of violent crime daily perpetrated against home owners, condo and apartment tenants, it
is apparent that the Physician is placing him/herself in a very risky position for suit.

It is my strong recommendation to Malpractice Carriers and those Physicians they insure to strictly avoid this high risk practice and reserve
counseling for the area of expertise in which they are certified: Medicine. In my professional opinion, this is an emotionally charged political
issue that Physicians and their Carriers should not be manipulated for whatever well-intentioned reason into taking the risk, which is
considerable......

Physicians in doubt of the veracity of what I’ve said are encouraged to call their carriers and ask them what they currently cover, and to ask if
this new counseling policy is covered under the existing policy. We already know what they will say: Don’t borrow trouble.

Since retiring from the LA County Sheriff’s Department, Mr. Horn has provided Risk Management and related issue Human Resource consulting. Among
other firms, he has consulted to IBM, Gates Learjet, National Semiconductor, and Pinkerton International Protection Services.


10 posted on 07/12/2013 7:41:02 PM PDT by dynachrome (Vertrou in God en die Mauser)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Could you mention some of the questions they asked you?

Also, inspecting the kids’ privates is outrageous.


11 posted on 07/12/2013 7:41:42 PM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a chain of convenience stores.)
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To: july4thfreedomfoundation

Sorry I didn’t make myself clear. Questions they asked my daughter about many aspects of their home life. I was shocked. They didn’t do this when my children were small.


12 posted on 07/12/2013 7:42:55 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: holden
This raises a big question:
Who employs the doctor? The patient or the government?

This, I think, marks the end of doctor/patient confidentiality; and I seriously wonder as to the integrity of attorney/client privilege.

13 posted on 07/12/2013 7:43:05 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Maceman

Maceman, that answer is excellent.

I’ve going to use it myself if ever asked.


14 posted on 07/12/2013 7:44:05 PM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a chain of convenience stores.)
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To: holden

Unless I’m mistaken, he signed this several months ago. Or was that just when it was proposed? My kids are instructed to say “that’s none of your business, and not your job”. Oh, and a parent is always present. Not that it matters, their pediatrician would never ask it anyway.


15 posted on 07/12/2013 7:44:06 PM PDT by cdcdawg (Be seeing you...)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Shades of Hitler grow stronger and stronger in this clowns day to day actions.


16 posted on 07/12/2013 7:44:13 PM PDT by doc1019 (Get our troops the hell out of the ME)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Sorry. My daughter’s pediatrician only saw her with me in the room. Trust me had that question ever been asked I would have had the final word


17 posted on 07/12/2013 7:46:00 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: holden

My pediatrican asked the insurance-driven “is there a gun in the house” question, even before Obuttwipe was prez. Prepared answer, of course, is “no”. Simplifies a lot.


18 posted on 07/12/2013 7:47:40 PM PDT by workerbee (The President of the United States is DOMESTIC ENEMY #1)
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To: Gay State Conservative

If they did this 50 years ago, the 10 year old that was me would say heck yea, I have a .22 and a .410 in my Closet.
Want to go shooting?


19 posted on 07/12/2013 7:47:55 PM PDT by Kickass Conservative (They can follow the Communist, I'll follow the Constitution...)
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To: holden

“Executive orders” are only for government employees.


20 posted on 07/12/2013 7:47:57 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: justa-hairyape
"if there are guns in their house...No need to ask that here in West Texas. The answer would be yes 90% of the time."

Only 90%??

We must have too many yankees moving into the state>

21 posted on 07/12/2013 7:48:17 PM PDT by Aarchaeus (V)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Part of every physical is to do an appropriate bit of observation.... not for signs of abuse but for signs that the child is growing in a healthy manner. I can remember being examined (visually) by my pediatrician and that was a hell of a long time ago. My mother was always in the same room. This was true for my child as well. Unless your doc specifically said he was looking for signs of abuse I would not be so quick to make that conclusion. If he did say that I would find a new doc


22 posted on 07/12/2013 7:49:04 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: OneWingedShark
Who employs the doctor? The patient or the government?

Whoever pays them employs them. That's the way it's been since they used to make house calls in the 1950's.

23 posted on 07/12/2013 7:50:01 PM PDT by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: holden

seems like authorities interrogating a minor without their adult or guardian present

on the flip side, if they’re looking for tips on who has guns... I’m sure every liberal you know has a gun. do society a favor, and drop a dime on your local liberal. I’m sure they’ll enjoy the knock at their door


24 posted on 07/12/2013 7:50:15 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: meyer

To shoot the Bastards?


25 posted on 07/12/2013 7:50:48 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Nifster

I do think the health and human services tyrants are requiring more than what is necessary.


26 posted on 07/12/2013 7:51:05 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: Pining_4_TX

“They didn’t do this when my children were small.”

Unfortunately, America has gotten worse since then.
I want the old America back.

Here in Maine, I don’t know if they ask about firearms; I’ve never been asked. Just about everyone here is armed in this mostly rural state.


27 posted on 07/12/2013 7:51:09 PM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a chain of convenience stores.)
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To: holden
 photo BADDY.jpg
28 posted on 07/12/2013 7:51:13 PM PDT by baddog 219
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To: Maceman

Great answer!

Taxman Bravo Zulu! for teaching your daughter to say that!


29 posted on 07/12/2013 7:51:53 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: ConservativeMind

I think FL passed a law prohibiting DRs to ask that.


30 posted on 07/12/2013 7:52:49 PM PDT by bicyclerepair (Inbred, pedophile-worshipping, misogynists (mozlums) offend me.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
To top it all, apparently doctors now have to look at a child’s genitals at every visit for signs of abuse.

Our pediatrician takes about 1.5 seconds to look "under the underwear" of my daughters, and this only after asking them if it's okay to look. I don't think it's about checking for abuse as much as ascertaining the onset/level of pubescence. And I'm right there beside them, so I have no qualms. If something beyond this is going on, you should ask the pediatricians about the purpose of the exam. It can always be refused.

31 posted on 07/12/2013 7:53:04 PM PDT by workerbee (The President of the United States is DOMESTIC ENEMY #1)
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To: Gay State Conservative

My niece is a pediatric nurse and she says it’s now standard procedure to ask parents *and* kids if there are guns in their house.


My response would be: “I carry. Want to see it?”


32 posted on 07/12/2013 7:55:18 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds have been stolen.)
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To: Gay State Conservative
I'd ask the "health" givers if they were US citizens and could prove it. I'd ask them to see their STASI credentials.

(Then I'd explain to them the dangers of canoeing.)

33 posted on 07/12/2013 7:57:35 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: elkfersupper; holden; Semper911; Pining_4_TX; meyer; 21st Century Crusader; Maceman; ...
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

34 posted on 07/12/2013 7:58:55 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I'll raise $2million for Sarah Palin's next run. What'll you do?)
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To: OneWingedShark

I was even discussing the confessional with my parents.

What if the priest is carrying a phone with him.
He may be unwittingly allowing “others” to listen in without knowing it.


35 posted on 07/12/2013 7:58:58 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: elkfersupper
>> Who employs the doctor? The patient or the government?
>
>Whoever pays them employs them. That's the way it's been since they used to make house calls in the 1950's.

But here's the thing: executive orders are only supposed to be for government employees. So then, if the EO is to have any effect it must be asserted that the doctors are government employees.

36 posted on 07/12/2013 8:00:10 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Pining_4_TX

Oh I don’t doubt that but good docs don’t play that game. They know exactly what is necessary for them to do their job. I have a friend who works for the VA in home health care. This person makes a pint of not discussing certain things with the patient because it is overly intrusive and not medical needed


37 posted on 07/12/2013 8:00:24 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: doc1019

Shades of Hitler grow stronger and stronger in this clowns day to day actions.


Obama is definitely moving into the same league as Stalin and Hitler.


38 posted on 07/12/2013 8:00:35 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds have been stolen.)
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To: holden
One reason I like my doc. Every visit starts with a discussion of cool guns and bikes. (I'm into BMW, him HD but we're both into Mausers)
39 posted on 07/12/2013 8:00:46 PM PDT by CrazyIvan (I'm so conservative I won't even wear progressive bifocals.)
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To: OneWingedShark
By such action, the government clearly is acting as if it has invasive rights to this kind of information that was previously considered doctor-patient confidential.

Ladies and gentlemen, we've arrived at a point where the government has violated The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures. No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Since the government has no Constitutional right to seizure of our personal information, it has no right to act on the basis of information gained unlawfully.

Following the Constitution used to be engrained in American Citizens, such that they would do things in accord therewith as a matter of course. Going forward, this will be coerced and acquiesced to, as the GOP has acquiesced to their subservient, unable-to-impeach status.

Physicians are hereby ripped from their previous relationships of confidentiality and following the Constitution and turned into Constitution-abusing snitches, doing great harm to their patients. They should rebel, which of course under the NDAA will be considered a "belligerent act" (See belligerentact.org).

Or are We the People going to do something about it?

HF

40 posted on 07/12/2013 8:01:27 PM PDT by holden (Alter or abolish it yet?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Vigilance is a good thing. I wasn’t saying other wise


41 posted on 07/12/2013 8:02:09 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: workerbee

hmmm.....technically - “no” would be an excellent - and truthful - answer for us too.

They aren’t “in” our house.
They are in a room off our porch - attached to the house.


42 posted on 07/12/2013 8:02:18 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: holden

Seriously - what could anyone want this power for other than to gather info on you for when they need it and by need it I mean when they come for you. Can you imagine your local gangsters - “Yeah sure I got me a piece”.

I would ask my GP if he ever intends to ask me or my family this question if not he gets my business.

And they dared call Bush a Nazi.


43 posted on 07/12/2013 8:04:19 PM PDT by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
Why don’t doctors rebel and tell the gov’t to get lost?

The feral government is the source of many, many medical pay checks.

44 posted on 07/12/2013 8:04:36 PM PDT by Standing Wolf
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To: laplata

If you could find a timeline somewhere on the internet of all the (equivalent) executive orders Hitler gave on his road to becoming dictator, I think you would find a strong correlation to what Obama is doing today.


45 posted on 07/12/2013 8:06:11 PM PDT by doc1019 (Get our troops the hell out of the ME)
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To: dynachrome

Wtf?


46 posted on 07/12/2013 8:09:59 PM PDT by txmissy
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To: justa-hairyape

90% or more.

But my doctor has more guns and ammo than I do. He has never asked. We do talk about the ComDem Insanity in DC often. He is also a good friend. And he is X-Military.


47 posted on 07/12/2013 8:12:01 PM PDT by Texas Fossil
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To: meyer

Yes.

Free Men Need Not Ask Permission.


48 posted on 07/12/2013 8:12:38 PM PDT by Texas Fossil
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To: holden

Too much executive and not just at the federal, but at the state and local level.


49 posted on 07/12/2013 8:13:28 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Perhaps the greatest statement ever made about how liberty is lost.


50 posted on 07/12/2013 8:14:09 PM PDT by cdcdawg (Be seeing you...)
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