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Can Quantum Mechanics Produce a Universe from Nothing?
www.apologeticspress.org ^ | 2/1/2013 | Jeff Miller, Ph.D.

Posted on 07/18/2013 10:36:09 AM PDT by kimtom

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To: kimtom

Nope. That is God’s job


51 posted on 07/18/2013 11:09:38 AM PDT by Cyman
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To: kimtom
A particle of matter and a particle of anti-matter can collide and result in nothing.

I don't see why a particle of matter and a particle of anti-matter can't be spawned from nothing.

But I think that what is really going on there is that their are dimensions of our universe that are invisible to us.

I also think that the basis of consciousness is hidden in one or more of those dimensions.

52 posted on 07/18/2013 11:11:26 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Who knew that one day professional wrestling would be less fake than professional journalism?)
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To: fifedom

As you know, it’s already built-in to the Dirac and Klein-Gordon equations, and it’s happening to infinite orders every time an electron experiences the attraction of a proton (for example.) There’s nothing exotic about it. The exchange of gauge bosons holding the world together can’t happen without it.


53 posted on 07/18/2013 11:12:44 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: dfwgator
The Final Proof of the non-Existence of God provided by the existence of the Babel Fish.

Now, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some have chosen to see it as the final proof of the NON-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED"

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

54 posted on 07/18/2013 11:13:25 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Anywhere there is tyranny you will find that the people were first disarmed.)
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To: fifedom

The Casimir effect is the result of exclusion of certain wave lengths based upon the distance the plates are apart. The wave lengths exist due to the Universe which generates the waves of energy, so the Casimir effect has nothing to do with how a Universe could come into existence.


55 posted on 07/18/2013 11:14:08 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: metmom

“Now, here these ID deniers come along and tell us with a straight face...”

Your confusing liberals w/scientists.

ID deniers would be liberals. Scientists would be those that don’t care one way or the other.

That’s why they say the “big bang” or whatever else, is just a “theory”.

As a Catholic and an Engineer, I have no prob mixing faith and science. God gave man an ability to reason and that’s all the scientists do.

However, there are those that do work for political agendas, like global warming, etc., that are exercising political science, not physical science.

I have no prob w/the big bang theory myself. After all, maybe that’s how God DID it.


56 posted on 07/18/2013 11:16:25 AM PDT by fruser1
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To: MHGinTN
It doesn't get you anywhere.

The entropy of the Universe at the instant of the singularity was the lowest it's ever been, and has been increasing ever since. It's initial value is not particularly interesting; it is merely circumstantial. Whatever it was it's higher now, and will be higher tomorrow.

57 posted on 07/18/2013 11:17:23 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: fruser1

In a PET scan of your own body.


58 posted on 07/18/2013 11:18:01 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: GraceG
Yes you can, the tricky part is finding the shovel that can dig matter out of space time and leave a hole called gravity.....

So THAT'S where those shovel ready jobs are...

59 posted on 07/18/2013 11:19:15 AM PDT by wastedyears (One nation, under wub. Saints Row IV)
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To: kimtom

bump for later reading


60 posted on 07/18/2013 11:20:16 AM PDT by techcor
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
A particle of matter and a particle of anti-matter can collide and result in nothing.

Nope.

E = mc2. The matter and antimatter have mass and in order to conserve the energy in their masses gamma rays are created when they annihilate.

61 posted on 07/18/2013 11:20:28 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: FredZarguna

Um, can you explain how such a low entropy state could exist, much less begin increasing without an impetus?


62 posted on 07/18/2013 11:22:56 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: dfwgator

I must be older than you. I’m hearing, “Life is but a dream, sh-boom...”


63 posted on 07/18/2013 11:23:22 AM PDT by HomeAtLast
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The steady state theory may have been shredded, however that does not necessarily mean the universe has always existed. Maybe it's the "big oscillation" rather than the "big bang" ... and for a split second every 100 billion years or so everybody in the universe gets to wave at each other as we "meet in the middle"???

Stranger things have happened! (Well, in this case actually they haven't! :O )

64 posted on 07/18/2013 11:23:46 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: FredZarguna

I like the street scientist’s explanation: Vacuum energy is not nothin’.


65 posted on 07/18/2013 11:24:55 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

“””..I also think that the basis of consciousness is hidden in one or more of those dimensions....”

ummm?

Can we understand the mind of God??


66 posted on 07/18/2013 11:25:00 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: MHGinTN; fifedom

The Casimir effect arises because of vacuum state energy which is indeed the focus of this article. You are mistaken and the original poster is correct. Since this is quite well established, I’ll expect a citation as a rebuttal (and not from a religious website.)


67 posted on 07/18/2013 11:25:40 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: MHGinTN

I don’t think you’re refuting what he was saying. You’re just taking a wave view instead of a particle view of the Casimir Effect.


68 posted on 07/18/2013 11:26:29 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: dfwgator
And who created Quantum Mechanics?

Who created God?

69 posted on 07/18/2013 11:26:39 AM PDT by Bubba_Leroy (The Obamanation Continues)
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To: MHGinTN

That explanation doesn’t necessarily apply, because pair production doesn’t just involve virtual particles; there is annihilation even in cases where no vacuum state is involved...


70 posted on 07/18/2013 11:28:17 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: kimtom

My question on that Big Bang theory is where did those atoms or whatever it was come from before they blew up?


71 posted on 07/18/2013 11:29:22 AM PDT by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: GraceG
Yes you can, the tricky part is finding the shovel that can dig matter out of space time and leave a hole called gravity.....

True or Jest? Either way, very clever.

72 posted on 07/18/2013 11:31:00 AM PDT by Aevery_Freeman (We say "low-information" but we mean "low-intelligence")
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To: FredZarguna
You will expect? ... Bwahahaha, the arrogance is almost remarkable.

If something exists, the question of whether quantum mechanics could have created the something from a nothing is just the sort of arrogant question haters of religion think represent their intellect.

What causes the Casimir effect? The proximity of the plates being charged excludes certain wave lengths which in turn 'push' upon the outer surfaces of the plates?

For there to be wavelengths, time must exist. Before the 'bang' time nor space exited. Time and Space were made to exist, then events started occurring and things started to exist, even your arrogant self.

73 posted on 07/18/2013 11:31:14 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

A fellow Hitchhiker!


74 posted on 07/18/2013 11:31:15 AM PDT by catbertz
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To: cuban leaf
Multiple cosmologists (like Avi Loeb at Harvard Univerity) say that the universe had a beginning and will come to an end.

The CONTENTS of this Universe, yes, will have changed into another form. Infinite space and infinite time cannot change, never began, cannot end.

75 posted on 07/18/2013 11:34:38 AM PDT by USCG SimTech (Honored to serve since '71)
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To: Bubba_Leroy
And who created Quantum Mechanics?

Who created God?

God never began, does not change, cannot end. Only that which is subject to finite begin, change, end.

76 posted on 07/18/2013 11:37:48 AM PDT by USCG SimTech (Honored to serve since '71)
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To: FredZarguna; Williams; metmom

“..This is not a scientific article..”

Why is it when your beliefs are challenged you feel threatened???

or maybe that’s just my opinion...


77 posted on 07/18/2013 11:37:51 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?


78 posted on 07/18/2013 11:39:16 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: UCANSEE2

“...How many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?...”

why would they do that?


79 posted on 07/18/2013 11:41:16 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom
Can Quantum Mechanics Produce a Universe from Nothing?

Yes! If the Federal Reserve can produce money from nothing then Quantum Mechanics surely can produce a Universe...............

80 posted on 07/18/2013 11:42:10 AM PDT by varon (Down with tyranny)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
but how do you observe matter that is non-existent?

Look in my bank account.

81 posted on 07/18/2013 11:42:32 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: MHGinTN
can you explain how such a low entropy state could exist, much less begin increasing without an impetus

You're missing the point. The value of the initial entropy of the universe doesn't matter: it is whatever it is. The issue of importance is that entropy always increases. How that law came into existence is not a matter of physics, it's metaphysics. And just as I argue elsewhere on this thread, material reality is not a necessary reality, it is a contingent reality. Physicists (like Stephen Hawking) who argue that the material evolution of the universe don't require God might very well be correct. But their point is also irrelevant, because it doesn't tell us where the laws creating and driving material come from, and that is what matters.

A Christian would argue thus: all this "stuff" is just "stuff," and in a metaphysical sense as it applies to the question of Creation is purely incidental [environmental, if you prefer.] It came into existence by God's Word. That is all that is required. And that is what the laws of physics are.

[Now there is another part of this, outside of what we are talking about, which is this: God does not do anything for no reason. The universe has the specific characteristics it has, and the specific laws that govern it for a reason. The actual form He has used to actuate the material world matters, for reasons that are completely unknown to us. But that doesn't alter the present discussion, whose point is, in arguing the existence of God, you are straining at a gnat from a metaphysical point of view when you ask the question why was the entropy low at the start of creation. The real question is why is there entropy, and why does it increase, and the answer is to make time possible, without which our flesh cannot exist.]

82 posted on 07/18/2013 11:42:42 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: USCG SimTech

“...space and infinite time cannot change, never began, cannot end...”

...as we know it.

:)


83 posted on 07/18/2013 11:42:49 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

That’s it! I am opening up an automobile repair shop and naming it Quantum Mechanics!


84 posted on 07/18/2013 11:43:03 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (Unindicted Co-conspirators: The Mainstream Media)
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To: dfwgator
And who created Quantum Mechanics?

The Publishers of Popular Mechanics.

85 posted on 07/18/2013 11:43:15 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: kimtom

No. Quantum mechanics is not an object, and is not energy. It’s a set of rules that attempt to describe how matter and energy act under certain conditions.

“nothing” can’t do anything. Nothing is a convenient word used to talk about the absence of something. Like “dark” or “cold” or “space.”

Where/when there is no matter and no energy, it is ludicrous to talk about “nothing” causing “something.”
Unless the speaker is a scientist hell bent on disproving that the universe’s cause is external to itself.


86 posted on 07/18/2013 11:44:10 AM PDT by I want the USA back (If I Pi$$ed off just one liberal today my mission has been accomplished.)
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To: Black Agnes

But then where’s the cat box!? Hmmmm?


87 posted on 07/18/2013 11:45:21 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: kimtom
Can Quantum Mechanics Produce a Universe from Nothing?

There is some evidence that this may be possible. Consider the equivalent which we sometime witness in the natural world, in which productive energy, rational thought, and conservative principals are brought into existence from within an organic shell which once contained nothing but a Liberal.
88 posted on 07/18/2013 11:45:22 AM PDT by zencycler
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To: MHGinTN

Arrogance is not involved on my part, but on your part. I EXPECT a citation because your explanation is not the explanation accepted by science. If you are saying this on your own authority, you’re mistaken. The Casimir effect is not produced by the mechanism you posit, and you won’t find any scientist in the world who agrees with you.


89 posted on 07/18/2013 11:45:26 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: NonValueAdded

My wallet seems to definitely be under the influence of quantum mechanics ... cash pops in and out of it at an alarmingly random pace.


90 posted on 07/18/2013 11:45:32 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Red Badger
Gravity is the absence of space.
Space is the absence of gravity..................

Gravity is dust on my furniture
Space is the absence of dog and cat in bed...........

91 posted on 07/18/2013 11:45:37 AM PDT by varon (Down with tyranny)
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To: kimtom

There is an interesting take on this in Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism going way back.

They said that the purpose for the universe is that God had a question He could not answer: Is there anything *not* God?

So God decided to create the universe as a mirror of His image. To do this, God created a “contraction”, a vacuum, in which there was no God. Into the center of this vacuum, God sent a very complicated “bolt of lightning”, which created a single particle in the center of the contraction.

The particle was to continually replicate until it had made the entire universe. Once complete, God will look upon it, answer His question, and the universe will cease to exist, the contraction with vanish, and everything will become part of God again.


92 posted on 07/18/2013 11:46:14 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: SgtHooper

Cat boxes could be anywhere.


93 posted on 07/18/2013 11:46:25 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Black Agnes

Nothing would be better than a black-hole kitty box!


94 posted on 07/18/2013 11:46:30 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: FredZarguna

“...God does not do anything for no reason. The universe has the specific characteristics it has, and the specific laws that govern it for a reason....”

Interesting........

We must keep in mind that God’s ways and thoughts are “higher” than our ways and thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). “How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out” (Romans 11:33).

The Bible, however, does give us a clue as to why God created the stars and planets throughout the Universe. In the book of Psalms, David praised God, and wrote about how “the moon and the stars” are the work of His fingers (8:1-4). He then wrote: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork” (19:1). The heavenly bodies show God’s glory and creative ability. They exist (at least partly) to serve as a proof of God’s existence and His power.

Another reason God created the many hosts of heaven may also have to do with the fact that He knew men would use the stars at night to help them know which direction they were going (Genesis 1:14).
-Doug


95 posted on 07/18/2013 11:46:45 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

The pin is hot?


96 posted on 07/18/2013 11:48:44 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: metmom

You have a better understanding of the current ‘model’ of the Universe than most ‘geniuses’.


97 posted on 07/18/2013 11:49:13 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: kimtom
I don't feel threatened. You feel threatened by science and produce articles which claim to make arguments on scientific terms, but don't. I would not quote a scientist to make a theological argument, because in pretty high generality scientists aren't qualified to comment on theology, and those who do, such as Stephen Hawking, make asses of themselves. In his latest book, Hawking actually makes a theological argument that was demolished about 17 centuries ago, and he and all the cognoscenti not only think it's brilliant, but are so ignorant of theology that they aren't even aware that it's nonsense.

And by the same token, I would not cite an article about science from a theologian.

98 posted on 07/18/2013 11:50:21 AM PDT by FredZarguna (They Old School. We New School. We don't read cursive in New School. My Generation. We retahded, sir)
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To: UCANSEE2

How do you know she is or is not a genius?


99 posted on 07/18/2013 11:50:28 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: kimtom

No. One must have legos, an erector set, and at least a 12 pack of good beer...


100 posted on 07/18/2013 11:51:09 AM PDT by MortMan (Disarming the sheep only emboldens the wolves.)
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