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Dick Cheney: Rand Paul is wrong on government surveillance
Washington Post ^ | June 16 2013 | Sean Sullivan

Posted on 07/19/2013 11:10:19 PM PDT by WilliamIII

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101 posted on 07/20/2013 11:09:28 AM PDT by RedMDer (When immigrants cannot or will not assimilate, its really just an invasion. Throw them out!)
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To: Ken H

....FOR ME...NEITHER!!! Go Sarah Palin!!!!!!


102 posted on 07/20/2013 11:11:48 AM PDT by pollywog ("O Thou who changest not, abide with me.".......)
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To: dagogo redux

You would rather have a nuke go off here than have the patriot act? Really?

Don’t you know the nuke would likely lead to much worse surveillance programs and likely martial law?


103 posted on 07/20/2013 11:33:05 AM PDT by what's up
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To: Irenic

Exactly. Don’t tell me we need all this surveillance when we have non-existent/lax immigration enforcement.


104 posted on 07/20/2013 11:52:38 AM PDT by CommieCutter
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To: meadsjn

Great post! Also, Bush / Cheney did nothing to seal the border with Mexico. It’s not only Mexicans sneaking across.

That “Islam is a religion of peace” BS pi$$es me off, too.


105 posted on 07/20/2013 12:42:06 PM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a chain of convenience stores.)
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To: Leaning Right

Everything you said is spot on. Right after 9/11 we needed a Reagan and a Patton

and patton was assassinated, that should tell you all you need to know about the elites who run this world.


106 posted on 07/20/2013 1:25:45 PM PDT by willywill
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To: pollywog
....FOR ME...NEITHER!!! Go Sarah Palin!!!!!!

Weasel answer. I did not ask you to choose between Paul or Cheney. I asked whose position most closely matches your own.

What say you?

107 posted on 07/20/2013 1:29:06 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: doc1019

Not even close. I will go with Rand Paul over Cheney.

The NSA spying is a criminal act and Cheney approves of it. POS IMO.


108 posted on 07/20/2013 1:32:59 PM PDT by Red in Blue PA (When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: sickoflibs

Yeah, a Libertarian who supports the Constitution, who could support that?/s


109 posted on 07/20/2013 1:35:38 PM PDT by Red in Blue PA (When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: WilliamIII
Dick defending the indefensible. Are Dick and George on some kind of tag-team to legitimize obama’s unconstitutional ways or something?

Recently Jorge attempts to give obama cover by endorsing cultural and economic suicide via amnesty, and now Richie gives his blessing to ignore the 4A and poo-poos blatant government overreach in general. Not only do these two fail to solve problems, they create new ones

Meanwhile both of them are immune to the fallout of what's to come. Thanks a lot for your 'service' boys.

110 posted on 07/20/2013 1:40:11 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
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To: Ken H

ah ha...... on this issue....Rand Paul....but I don’t agree with Rand Paul on a much else.


111 posted on 07/20/2013 1:52:49 PM PDT by pollywog ("O Thou who changest not, abide with me.".......)
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To: ColdSteelTalon
"The NSA lied to congress. and the datacenter in Utah they are building is designed to store everything. And I mean everything. I ran into an IBM guy in Texas who is saying the NSA is buying tons of storage for that site. In the multiple yottabyte range."

I come from a long line of data analytic innovations, including being an executive at 2 of the largest global big-data companies. I've been watching the hearings on CSPAN and the gov minions are still lying about their data capture scope and data access processes.

Several of the Rats were actually asking more revelatory and technical questions than the GOP members. What came out is that 22 managers in the NSA can approve queries on the full dataset of national / international communications without making a specific request to FISA. Periodically, there are internal NSA spot reviews of queries and summary annual reports are provided to FISA on issues identified from spot reviews. Congress gets a 1/2 page report annually. Wow! The transparency!

This means that all first-order queries are at the discretion of NSA internal approvals. Then, there are 2nd and 3rd order queries based on the output of the initial 1st order query that don't go through FISA. There is literally an exponential growth of identities at the 2nd and 3rd order queries.

This whole data capture and mashup of every source of information on individuals and groups / companies will be made significantly more potent once Obamacare comes on line in full. The first $800 billion "stimulus", before Obamacare, contained $40 billion to implement a national database of electronic medical records. What! Why was that put into a stimulus bill before any legal structure was in place to support such a massive program to capture detailed, very personal information on the entire population of the USA? Viola - along comes Obamacare!

So, FU Cheney, Mr. Globalist New World Order (Bush Sr's words, not mine) useful idiot!

112 posted on 07/20/2013 2:02:13 PM PDT by uncommonsense (Liberals see what they believe; Conservatives believe what they see.)
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To: WilliamIII; doc1019; sickoflibs

I think Dick Cheney might be attacking a straw man here.

Rand, AFAIK, isn’t against gathering of intelligence on terrorist suspects.

I am not against that, either.

What I *do* oppose is the systemic and systematic gathering of data on every American person and their behaviors...which is what Ed Snowden appears to have revealed.

I also believe men of ill repute and bad character ought not be in charge of such information. I believe Dick Cheney is well aware of the current regime’s lack of good character—and in fact Dick Cheney, I am certain, did not support the current regime....

So Rand Paul is right, and so is Dick Cheney—they just appear to be talking about different things. That is how I see this debate.


113 posted on 07/20/2013 2:35:16 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: doc1019

Government is by its very nature political. Placing this much power and authority in any human’s hands is an abuse.

I have a right to be secure in my person and papers. This extends to electronic communications and information in electronic form. Profile, target the real threats or let’s stand down and take our chances.

I don’t feel the least bit safer with morons from the TSA searching busty women, teen girls, toddlers, the handicapped or the elderly. It’s all theater. It’s all abuse.

It’s time to stop and return the country to pre-9/11 America. We’re done.

What has a single overseas adventure gained us? Name the country we’ve shed blood in that is a valid ally or that hasn’t retrograded?

The 3rd world is the 3rd world because of a culture of mistrust, tribalism and religious retardation. Why ruin America to protect that?


114 posted on 07/20/2013 2:43:12 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Irenic

The elites are so mentally and financially out of touch with the rest of the country how can you take anything they say seriously?

Liz Cheney is running in WY not because she loves that state and has strong ties to it, but because it’s an easy GOP win and she’ll be a Senator for life. It’s a game to these people.

Stop play and elect the TEA Party candidates to the GOP. Let’s win.


115 posted on 07/20/2013 2:45:03 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: WilliamIII

Here’s an idea, Dick. How ‘bout stopping people from coming into our country we think might cause us harm. Let’s do a little profiling. Will we not survive if we stop allowing muslims in? Are we that afraid that we cannot survive unless muslims own all the convenience stores and fast food joint? Do we hate Christians so much that we want a muslim to buy Chic fil A?


116 posted on 07/20/2013 3:19:27 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican (If you vote for evil because you can't see evil, you ARE evil!)
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To: laplata

G.H.W. Bush’s neighbors held a huge fundraiser for Obama. You can’t tell me Bush didn’t know them.


117 posted on 07/20/2013 3:22:50 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican (If you vote for evil because you can't see evil, you ARE evil!)
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To: doc1019

Between smaller more Constitutional government, and the Federal leviathan we have today thanks in part to neo-cons like Cheney...

You choose bigger government.

Got it...


118 posted on 07/20/2013 3:26:24 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: Ken H

Rand... All the way.


119 posted on 07/20/2013 3:27:15 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: SoFloFreeper

How can Dick Cheney be right if he set up a straw man and attacked it?


120 posted on 07/20/2013 3:42:54 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: WilliamIII

The danger of the gathering of this metadata is that it is now an unexpungeable record of all your friends and relations—your circle of contacts. If ever you are accused of anything, justly or unjustly, they can interrogate or otherwise go after your friends and family.

That is its chilling effect on activism. They know that people may be willing to put themselves out on a limb for what they believe in, but they will not risk their loved ones. That is our Achilles’ heel, and they know it and have cleverly used it.

It is too late. We have been caught in the noose, and it was inevitable once everything became electronic. Even if the NSA procedures are changed, and I guess they won’t be anyway, we can never again be sure that the knowledge is not out there somewhere.

Sincerely,

Cassandra


121 posted on 07/20/2013 3:45:46 PM PDT by firebrand (By the way, Cassandra was right.)
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To: VerySadAmerican

You’re right. They’re basically all in it together. They think they’re immune to the disaster they’re bringing upon us, the unwashed masses.


122 posted on 07/20/2013 3:54:58 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds are diseased.)
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To: 1010RD

Liz Cheney is running in WY not because she loves that state and has strong ties to it, but because it’s an easy GOP win and she’ll be a Senator for life. It’s a game to these people.

Stop play and elect the TEA Party candidates to the GOP. Let’s win.


Exactly!


123 posted on 07/20/2013 4:00:25 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds are diseased.)
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To: Vendome

Hey they have a search warrant for the 320 million domestic terrorist suspects.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/fisa-court-approves-surveillance_n_3625610.html


124 posted on 07/20/2013 4:11:27 PM PDT by SgtBilko
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To: WilliamIII
Dick Cheney - the draft dodger know-nothing who oversaw a massive expansion of government surveillance power, who said "deficits don't matter", who created the "office of special plans" which fabricated/cherry-picked the Iraqi WMD "intel" that led to 4,400+ US dead for NOTHING.

How this vile man ever came to be admired by so many conservatives has always been a mystery to me. Thankfully more and more are waking up. Better late than never.

Many libs and a few brave conservatives spoke out against the security state back in 2001-2008 only to be shouted down as "terror supporters" and "traitors." Now that a Dem is in the WH (inheriting the same powers handed to the POTUS by Bush/Cheney) suddenly the GOP base sees the error of its ways while the outraged libs have gone strangely silent.

Hypocrites, all over the place.

125 posted on 07/20/2013 4:11:52 PM PDT by JCBontheloose
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To: Irenic
They aren't worried about security, the Boston bombers were not stopped with all the crazy invasive 'security measures' that are in place.

Not to mention a heads-up from the Russians.

Truth is, terrorism has NEVER concerned the powers that be since it provides them with an excuse for endless wars and intrusive state powers.

If the "war on terror" were at all serious the terror-supporting Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia would have been destroyed on 9/12/01. Instead they remain our best friends - like fighting fascism in alliance with Nazi Germany.

126 posted on 07/20/2013 4:11:53 PM PDT by JCBontheloose
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To: WilliamIII

I keep trying to go with Cheney because he does indeed know the inside dope. But he and Bush2 are also the guys who just kept Iran and the Norks in the nuke business. At some point “gathering intelligence” is just a dodge for sitting on ones hands, butt, head or whatever is comfy. The peace dividend is peace but only if you stomp the krap out of trouble makers


127 posted on 07/20/2013 5:00:52 PM PDT by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: WilliamIII

With respect to the sociopaths who run fedgov - the same people who brought us the Fast and Furious inside job (and then tried to use it to attack the 2A) - does anyone seriously believe that it is their intention to protect our lives, liberty and property? No sale.

What is that Founders quote again about those who would give up their liberty for a promise of short term security, and then end up with neither?


128 posted on 07/20/2013 5:18:11 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: DoughtyOne; Leaning Right
The Vietnam War was not like WWII. Literally everyone was doing what they could to stay out of it. If you start condemning folks who avoided it, you won’t have many people left from that period that you can support.

You're missing the point, D1. If we can't blame Cheney for avoiding fighting at war in Nam -- and I don't don't -- why then has he been such a robust chickenhawk? Could it be his questionable conflict of interest between the military-industrial complex?

Moreover, it can be argued that Dick (CFR) Cheney was instrumental in NOT securing the US border post-9/11 as Mexicans were given a free reign to invade. We are paying the price for that legacy as well as an over-intrusive government.

129 posted on 07/20/2013 5:25:49 PM PDT by USS Johnston (Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be bought at the price of chains & slavery? - Patrick Henry)
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To: Ken H

I guess I misspoke.....What I meant is that he seems to have attacked (or is portrayed to have attacked) a position that Rand doesn’t hold.

OTOH, DC’s position that some surveillance is useful certainly is correct.


130 posted on 07/20/2013 5:27:37 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: JCBontheloose
If the "war on terror" were at all serious the terror-supporting Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia would have been destroyed on 9/12/01. Instead they remain our best friends - like fighting fascism in alliance with Nazi Germany.

+1.

131 posted on 07/20/2013 5:27:49 PM PDT by USS Johnston (Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be bought at the price of chains & slavery? - Patrick Henry)
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To: 1010RD; laplata
Liz Cheney is running in WY not because she loves that state and has strong ties to it, but because it’s an easy GOP win and she’ll be a Senator for life. It’s a game to these people.

Stop play and elect the TEA Party candidates to the GOP. Let’s win.

AND keep-out the self-serving, self-anointing elites. Lizzy wants to run? Let her earn it against a liberal Dem. In a liberal Dem state. Then she might be worthy.

132 posted on 07/20/2013 5:32:27 PM PDT by USS Johnston (Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be bought at the price of chains & slavery? - Patrick Henry)
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To: WilliamIII
>> What Dick Cheney said:

"Rand Paul is wrong on government surveillance."

>> What Dick Cheney actually meant:

Rand, leave my daughter alone! She's entitled by birthright to be the next senator from Wyoming!
133 posted on 07/20/2013 5:48:50 PM PDT by indthkr
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To: USS Johnston

Stop play and elect the TEA Party candidates to the GOP. Let’s win.

AND keep-out the self-serving, self-anointing elites. Lizzy wants to run? Let her earn it against a liberal Dem. In a liberal Dem state. Then she might be worthy.


Damned right!

Excellent point.


134 posted on 07/20/2013 5:56:48 PM PDT by laplata (Liberals don't get it. Their minds are diseased.)
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To: WilliamIII

He’s stuck in 2002.


135 posted on 07/20/2013 6:16:00 PM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: USS Johnston
The Vietnam War was not like WWII. Literally everyone was doing what they could to stay out of it. If you start condemning folks who avoided it, you won’t have many people left from that period that you can support.

You're missing the point, D1. If we can't blame Cheney for avoiding fighting at war in Nam -- and I don't don't -- (1) why then has he been such a robust chickenhawk? (2) Could it be his questionable conflict of interest between the military-industrial complex?

1 One man's chicken-hawk, is another man's simple patriot.  There is a group that thinks we shouldn't be involved in ground wars in Asia.  There's others who think we must take some military action when our nation is attacked, otherwise you look pretty much the paper tiger.  The attack on September 11th, 2001 was of a level that I supported the ground war.  I didn't care for how it was executed in the early years, but they did turn things around in due course in Iraq, and I think that was about as much as we could hope for.  As for Afghanistan, this ass hat we have right now doesn't know which end of a gun the bullet comes out of.  It is sad our men ultimately answer to a man like that.  He and his crew don't have the slightest idea what good rules of engagement are.  They are overburdened with having to be nice to terrorists.  Obama's main objective is to homosexualize the armed services to the extent he can.  Obama seems prepared to surrender any gains we made.  It's a sad situation.  To the extent he manages to make it look like we're leaving with our tail between our legs, he will have destroyed most of the positive aspects our efforts there may have gained us.  He'll also bring over thousands of Afghanis of a questionable nature that we'll have to deal with for eternity.

2 I have mixed thoughts on the Military Industrial Complex.  Our suppliers make lots of money.  They don't always do the best job, or provide the best tools for your men.  We do need them.  I think they could be managed better.  There are going to be advocates on their behalf.  Someone will be the contact person our government has to deal with.  Cheney made a lot of money working for Haliburton.  I believe it was in the neighborhood of $20 million per year.  On the one hand we want capable people in the White House, and on the other we get upset if they make too much money because they are so qualified.  I happen to think Cheney had the most gravitas of any vice president we've ever had.  You look at guys like Carter and Obama, and it's clear he ran circles around them both.

I don't believe Cheney advocated for a ground war based on his idea that his old buddies would make lots of money if there were one.  Others may disagree.

There is also a mindset that we need to be able to launch and execute military operations every so often, in order to keep our tactics updated and sound.  I believe our armed services learned a lot from the operations on the ground during these operations.  That is a good thing.  I don't believe there is a better desert fighting nation on planet earth right now.  The terrorists took a heavy hit in Iraq and Afghanistan.  I believe we spoted thousands if not tens of thousands of potentional problematic people by being on the ground in both nations.  We will keep tabs on those people for the rest of their lives.  I don't think it will be easy to quantify all the benefits we obtained over the last eleven years.  


Moreover, (3) it can be argued that Dick (5) (CFR) Cheney was instrumental in NOT securing the US border post-9/11 as Mexicans were given a free reign to invade.  We are paying the price for that legacy (4) as well as an over-intrusive government.


3 Cheney hasn't just started doing things I haven't liked.  I thought the idea to allow Islamic Clerics to officiate at the 09/11 memorials was absolutely unforgivable.  It was as if the Tate family (victims of Charles Manson and clan), had been forced to attend services where Mom and Pop Manson and all Charlie's siblings had stood up and recited what a nice family they had, and how Charlie had been the apple of their eye for as long as he was with them.  Somewhere along the line, these clueless bastard missed the part about terrorism, and sensitivity to families.  They also got so confused, they thought decent hard working U. S. Citizens (grandmas included) were the ones who needed to be rousted at the airports.

Yes, sure, Cheney played into the open border situation too.  It's devistating what has happened to our nation at the hands of the Left in both parties.

4 Part of the Patriot Act is being gamed against us.  They ramroded through new super-powers, and those powers are being used on citizens, NOT TERRORISTS.  It's infuriating.  We shouldn't have to wonder who is listening in on our converstations.  They can put saran wrap on it and call it anything they want, it's still a s--t sandwich for U. S. Citizens.

5 I'm not a big fan of the CFR, but I don't get as worked up over them as others do.  It used to be folks were really upset that Kissinger was a puppet of the "Blank" family. (insert family name here, I'm drawing a blank at the moment).  There's the Bilderbergers, the Illuminatti, a few others. I gave up trying to keep tabs on what these groups were doing to us.  

If we could pull Reagan out of the group and put him in the White House, we can do it again.  It's going to take a well grounded charismatic who isn't afraid to rub some people the wrong way, but it can be done.

So far, nobody seems to want the job. 


136 posted on 07/20/2013 6:41:23 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Zimmerman breaks Martin's nose/pounds his head on concrete? Does Martin's backers support Zimmerman?)
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To: meadsjn

Bingo! I supported George Bush because he picked Dick Cheney as his running mate. They tricked me into thinking they were serious about what they ran on.

Never again!


137 posted on 07/20/2013 6:45:02 PM PDT by B Knotts (Just another Tenther)
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To: doc1019

>>Between Rand Paul and Dick Cheney, I think I will go with Cheney.<<

Yea, ain’t it dandy how our liberty and freedoms have just gone poof?

Since 911, webs of cameras installed everywhere, LPR’s tracking millions of vehicles (owner’s movements), NSA spying on C/card records, phone and internet. DHS granting billions to militarize local law enforcment circumventing Posse Comitatus, thousands of surveillance drones over America, Law enforcement safety checkpoints, no knock entry by LEO’s, IRS used as a politcal tool, TSA groping nuns, kids and elderly, biometric databases with facial recognition capabilities on U.S. soil.

Yea, rather have Cheney over Rand Paul for sure.


138 posted on 07/20/2013 6:58:27 PM PDT by servantboy777
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To: Irenic
They aren't worried about security, the Boston bombers were not stopped with all the crazy invasive 'security measures' that are in place.

And to make matters worse, the Russians even warned us about those two.

139 posted on 07/20/2013 7:04:00 PM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: WilliamIII

Start profiling and take out the muslim islam filth and stop manufacturing McVeigh types and we’ll talk...until then STFU.


140 posted on 07/20/2013 7:23:43 PM PDT by soycd
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Agreed.


141 posted on 07/20/2013 7:31:26 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: Earthdweller

Excellent post.


142 posted on 07/20/2013 7:36:07 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: noinfringers2

“I myself am a vet of WWII and lost my only brother in the battle of Okinawa”

God Bless You Sir - and thank you for your service


143 posted on 07/20/2013 8:25:44 PM PDT by SpitfyrAce
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To: what's up

Yep, Really.

Really, really, really.

Enjoy whatever time and freedom you have left.


144 posted on 07/20/2013 10:16:32 PM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: WilliamIII
 “When you consider the possibility of somebody smuggling something like a nuclear device into the United Statees, teenage male prostitutes into the White House, it becomes very, very important to gather intelligence on your enemies and stop that attack before it ever gets launched.”

"Ohhhhho say can you seee...."
 
Eyes Wide Shut
"8-1984 - Lawrence King [Homosexual and alleged Pedophile] throws a lavish party in Dallas, Texas, after singing the National Anthem at the Republican National GOP Convention."
 
 
http://www.franklincase.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=9

145 posted on 07/20/2013 10:40:17 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: meadsjn

If Cheney (who I once admired) was so concerned with keeping us safe why did he not secure our freakin’ border?


146 posted on 07/20/2013 11:18:56 PM PDT by DivineMomentsOfTruth ("Give me Liberty or I'll stand up and get it for myself!")
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To: Irenic
Listening to Jeb Bush about fertility and all that, I had to wonder--do these people look at the rest of us like a bunch of cattle. Sure, they need to breed in some better stock in order to better serve them and their elitists buddies. It's their country you know and we're just the cattle. grrr../

Not far from the truth unfortunately. Recall that famous line from the movie "The Good Shepard", paraphrasing - "We are the rightful owners and citizens of this country, the rest of you are guests".
147 posted on 07/21/2013 7:01:55 AM PDT by indthkr
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To: Ken H
So whose position most closely matches your own - Paul or Cheney?

At this point in the fight? I'm with Paul. Obama has destroyed our status as a super-power. We're long past the big military to put out the fires of the world. Sad but true. Obama has created the situation in this nation where Ron Paul would actually make sense in 2016. That's also sad but true.

148 posted on 07/21/2013 11:03:32 AM PDT by tsowellfan
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To: meadsjn

How exactly do you outlaw a religion? I take it you’re not what we would call a strict constitutionalist.


149 posted on 07/21/2013 12:06:50 PM PDT by bigdaddy45
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To: doc1019

Don’t take it too personally. Free Republic is loaded with armchair ideologues who will instantly paint you as “unclean” if you don’t agree lock step with every position they hold. They are petty and insecure. Ignore them.


150 posted on 07/21/2013 12:10:27 PM PDT by bigdaddy45
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