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College student loses lawsuit over lusty writings
Associated Press ^ | 07/23/13 | ED WHITE

Posted on 07/23/2013 7:15:08 PM PDT by oxcart

DETROIT (AP) -- A college student suspended for writing an essay called "Hot for Teacher" has no First Amendment right to express his sexual attraction to his instructor, a judge said Tuesday.

Joseph Corlett's lawsuit was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Patrick Duggan, who ruled in favor of Oakland University in suburban Detroit.

When Corlett referred to his teacher as "'stacked' and graphically compared her to a sitcom character he fetishized in a writing assignment, he brought a pig into the parlor," Duggan said.

(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; academicbias; banglist; constitution; firstamendment; flagburning; pornification; savethemales

1 posted on 07/23/2013 7:15:08 PM PDT by oxcart
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To: oxcart

Well, what does she look like?


2 posted on 07/23/2013 7:17:38 PM PDT by ZULU ((See: http://gatesofvienna.net/) Obama, do you hear me?)
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To: oxcart

So only hardcore porn is protected by the first amendment?


3 posted on 07/23/2013 7:18:15 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: oxcart

This is what entitlement brings.

Mommy and Daddy’s little boy can do no wrong, why he’s “special” - his behavior is always excused, no matter how odd or socially awkward. He’s just “expressing himself”.

The teacher should be able to expel him from her class, with a “F” for his grade, and his permanent transcript. Perhaps the school should hold a board to see if this is the caliber of student they want want to represent their Alma Mater.

What happens when this little spoiled child is expected to behave like a professional? Is he magically going to start reigning in his thoughts and behavior? Is he magically going to censor what he says in a crowd?

Or, will he remain true to form; and as a company representative - expose his employer to a large sexual harassment lawsuit?


4 posted on 07/23/2013 7:19:50 PM PDT by Hodar (A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.- Burroughs)
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To: oxcart

A Muslim could get away with it. In that culture, women are simply chattel. From a political and religious viewpoint, women would be seen as mere objects for use by a man in a man’s world. First Amendment protection would seem a no brainer. But, if you are not of the protected class, then you must be politically correct at all times.


5 posted on 07/23/2013 7:19:58 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (21st century. I'm not a fan.)
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To: ZULU

Maybe his crime was he wasn't 19 years old.

6 posted on 07/23/2013 7:20:54 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: a fool in paradise

Wow, she looks blonde, sexy and stacked to me!!


7 posted on 07/23/2013 7:21:40 PM PDT by ZULU ((See: http://gatesofvienna.net/) Obama, do you hear me?)
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To: oxcart

I would have to see teacher before passing judgement.

Only an Fugly woman with horribly low self esteem would handle thisin the manner being exacted.


8 posted on 07/23/2013 7:21:59 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Maybe he should’ve ended his piece by burning the flag. THAT is protected speech and the litmus test for “protection” was if there was ANY social redeeming value in the work.


9 posted on 07/23/2013 7:22:28 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: a fool in paradise

I tend to agree with the ruling. It has less to do with the actual content than it did with the personal nature of the writing. It is the same thing if you anger your boss with an email and he fires you.


10 posted on 07/23/2013 7:23:20 PM PDT by Perdogg (Cruz-Paul 2016)
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To: a fool in paradise

Yeah...a tad bit inconsistent, eh?


11 posted on 07/23/2013 7:25:04 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper (And yet...we continue to tolerate this crap...)
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To: oxcart

Where did he get the pig? Did he have a pig fetish?

Is the judge a muslim?

I don’t get it...


12 posted on 07/23/2013 7:25:41 PM PDT by Hardraade (http://junipersec.wordpress.com (Obama: the bearded lady of Muslim Brotherhood))
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To: Perdogg

So can an atheist professor kick you out for citing God in one of your writings?


13 posted on 07/23/2013 7:28:45 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: oxcart

Stacked...with that sort of erudition, how could she possibly fail to be impressed....?


14 posted on 07/23/2013 7:28:52 PM PDT by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: a fool in paradise

colleges will fail you for citing wikipedia as a source


15 posted on 07/23/2013 7:30:17 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: Vendome
Maybe she hoped that her class would treat her with respect, and that a married man in her class wouldn't act like a disgusting, creepy, lecherous stalker.

I

16 posted on 07/23/2013 7:31:05 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: oxcart

ruling is correct


17 posted on 07/23/2013 7:31:06 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: oxcart

Get a load of this email from the instructor, Pamela Mitzefeld. She is afraid of Corlett because he has a “gun obsession.”

http://thefire.org/public/pdfs/9250dff8b0960db30f46fac58acd4d1c.pdf?direct


18 posted on 07/23/2013 7:32:10 PM PDT by iowamark
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To: oxcart
Okay, she did tell him to write honestly about his feelings and that no topic was off-limits. Sounds to me like she has no sense of humor at all. I'd have graded it, handed it back with a smirk, and that would have been the end of it.

People just get off on over-reacting.

19 posted on 07/23/2013 7:32:21 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: iowamark

Okay, now we’re getting to what the real issue is.


20 posted on 07/23/2013 7:33:39 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: oxcart
When Corlett referred to his teacher as "'stacked' and graphically compared her to a sitcom character he fetishized in a writing assignment, he brought a pig into the parlor," (Judge) Duggan said.

Now the teacher is suing the judge.

21 posted on 07/23/2013 7:34:44 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Hodar
This is what entitlement brings.

Mommy and Daddy’s little boy can do no wrong, why he’s “special” - his behavior is always excused, no matter how odd or socially awkward. He’s just “expressing himself”.

The teacher should be able to expel him from her class, with a “F” for his grade, and his permanent transcript. Perhaps the school should hold a board to see if this is the caliber of student they want want to represent their Alma Mater.

What happens when this little spoiled child is expected to behave like a professional? Is he magically going to start reigning in his thoughts and behavior? Is he magically going to censor what he says in a crowd?

Or, will he remain true to form; and as a company representative - expose his employer to a large sexual harassment lawsuit?

Someone got caught posting without reading!!

This "little spoiled child" is 57 years old.

22 posted on 07/23/2013 7:40:58 PM PDT by Zeppelin (Keep on FReepin' on...)
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To: Hodar
This is what entitlement brings.

Mommy and Daddy’s little boy can do no wrong, why he’s “special” - his behavior is always excused, no matter how odd or socially awkward. He’s just “expressing himself”.

The teacher should be able to expel him from her class, with a “F” for his grade, and his permanent transcript. Perhaps the school should hold a board to see if this is the caliber of student they want want to represent their Alma Mater.

What happens when this little spoiled child is expected to behave like a professional? Is he magically going to start reigning in his thoughts and behavior? Is he magically going to censor what he says in a crowd?

Or, will he remain true to form; and as a company representative - expose his employer to a large sexual harassment lawsuit?

Someone got caught posting without reading!!

This "little spoiled child" is 57 years old.

23 posted on 07/23/2013 7:40:58 PM PDT by Zeppelin (Keep on FReepin' on...)
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To: a fool in paradise
If you cite God in a paper for physics, then perhaps. I also believe that these issues would be better resolved within the confines of the university rather than the courts. It would be very difficult for the courts to address all university complaints on the First amendment bases.

If you apply the First Amendment to everything in life, then a student could claim he has an A in math since it is his First amendment right to say 1+1 = 3. We cannot make up words in an English class and then claim a First Amendment protection when we fail.

The First Amendment was not intended to be applied in this case. Clearly I believe in a free society, and for universities to produced literate individuals there has to be a degree of Academic freedom.

I think it is up to the universities to define boundaries and not the courts in a case like this. If the university violates its established rule of redress, then the courts could review the case - otherwise if I were an appellant judge - Cert. Denied
24 posted on 07/23/2013 7:44:34 PM PDT by Perdogg (Cruz-Paul 2016)
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To: iowamark

In the email she said “he might have had a gun in his backpack when he was sitting 20 feet away from.” Lady, that wasn’t a gun in his pocket. He was just glad to see you.


25 posted on 07/23/2013 7:49:06 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican (If you vote for evil because you can't see evil, you ARE evil!)
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To: oxcart

She clearly said NO topic was off-limits, and a working person his age views a college campus as exactly that —collegial and open.

A deal is a deal, right? Wrong.

His crime was that he took her at HER WORD and expected her to be adult about it.

Ah, I see —what the woman *said* and what was *in her mind* were two different things.

Gosh, imagine my surprise.

And then, it’s a fact that the LEAST truly open places are college campii. Indeed for more than a couple things they are in fact the most REGIMENTED.


26 posted on 07/23/2013 7:59:31 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: wideawake

I didn’t actually read the story .

He was married? if so i agree.

If he’s a kid then I was thinking about a talk regarding decorum, venue and a do over .


27 posted on 07/23/2013 8:08:11 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: oxcart

I would apologize profusely to the instructor before this ever got to court; perhaps ask her to dinner to talk things over.


28 posted on 07/23/2013 8:19:25 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: wideawake

Went and read the story.

Guy is an idiot and a lech.

He should be kicked out of class.


29 posted on 07/23/2013 8:29:11 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: oxcart

On the other hand, if he were hot for a male teacher ....


30 posted on 07/23/2013 8:42:11 PM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: Zeppelin; Hodar
This "little spoiled child" is 57 years old.

That makes it worse. What a fool.

31 posted on 07/23/2013 8:59:22 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: oxcart
"...students in the English 380 class were told to write honestly and that no topic was off limits."

"Oakland said the work was clearly inappropriate off limits."

"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

32 posted on 07/23/2013 9:37:17 PM PDT by TChad
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To: oxcart

> students in the English 380 class were told to write
> honestly and that no topic was off limits

If some topics are off limits, don’t say no topic is off limits.


33 posted on 07/23/2013 10:44:01 PM PDT by BinaryBoy (Socialism is built on slavery.)
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To: BinaryBoy

Given the world’s lust for porn, the guy will probably end up much more wealthy than the teacher.


34 posted on 07/23/2013 10:45:12 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Vendome; oxcart; A_perfect_lady
8 posted on 7/23/2013 9:21:59 PM by Vendome: “I would have to see teacher before passing judgement. Only an Fugly woman with horribly low self esteem would handle this in the manner being exacted.”

I cannot agree. I know you've since re-read the article and changed your view, but I want to add something beyond what you said.

There is a difference between a woman being attractive and a woman being seductive or otherwise suggesting she is "available." There are many attractive women who do not appreciate and would not accept a student in their class writing a paper treating them as a sex object. That goes double if the woman is the teacher, i.e., a person in authority, rather than a fellow student. Boundaries need to be respected and the teacher-student relationship is one of those boundaries. Very bad things happen from compromising or even appearing to compromise that relationship.

I realize both parties involved are adults. If the student and teacher were both single, asking for a date after the class is over might be acceptable, but as long as one person is responsible for giving a grade to the other person, this kind of relationship is out of line even if both parties fully agree with it. Would you want to be the student in the class wondering if the guy dating the teacher is getting a better grade based on his extracurricular activities?

19 posted on 7/23/2013 9:32:21 PM by A_perfect_lady: “Okay, she did tell him to write honestly about his feelings and that no topic was off-limits. Sounds to me like she has no sense of humor at all. I'd have graded it, handed it back with a smirk, and that would have been the end of it. People just get off on over-reacting.”

I'll give you an important point here — as a woman, I think you understand these matters better than many men.

I realize the woman gave an open-ended assignment, but in a civilized society, some things just don't typically come to mind as things to rule out in advance. Obviously, an attractive female teacher is aware that some of her male students are going to be attracted to her, but most students have enough decency not to submit a paper detailing that in explicit detail.

As a woman, if you choose to handle it via a smirk and handing the paper back, that's your choice. But I think that would open you to questions about whether the smirk meant you might be open to a personal relationship outside of class.

I can think of a number of attractive female teachers who, if the student were a young adult, would have a male teacher or her husband explain matters to the student. I realize some 18- or 19-year-old kids in college are away from home for the first time, are testing their boundaries, and need to be told there are reasons why rules exist not only in the home and high school but also in the adult world.

For an adult married man in his late 50s to act this way is far worse. He knows better and I think the female teacher was quite correct in dealing with his behavior directly and bluntly on her own rather than using an intermediary. It's not too many years ago that the female teacher might have slapped him or had her husband do so.

35 posted on 07/23/2013 10:45:20 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina

Even as adults a teacher dating their student is not acceptable because of a conflict of interest - did the student deserve those grades or is it payment for services?


36 posted on 07/23/2013 10:55:48 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: darrellmaurina

This doesn’t explain why ‘nothing is off limits’ should not be interpreted as exactly what it clearly states.

The woman is at fault. If she is sexually prudish, she can’t take the responsibility for her own mistake. If it’s about gun ownership it is clearly political harassment in addition (in universities it is often the case that white males become demonized after being invited in class to be ‘honest’).

The problem was easily avoidable in advance by the teacher stating in the assignment that nothing is off limits but guns and sex.

Most collegiate flimflam is excused by putting form over function. This is an extreme of form over function. Somehow the student is expected to know some writing is off limits even when it is explicitly stated nothing is off limits. If nothing means something as in this case, then something can mean just about anything, and the entire exercise becomes arbitrary.

It is slippery slope. The judge is pandering to the university and the emotions of some of the university staff. What if the guy had written about lacrosse and the teacher had a severe emotional aversion to lacrosse? Or about Republicans winning elections? (well, no, that would be clearly off limits)


37 posted on 07/24/2013 12:48:17 AM PDT by SteveH (First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.)
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To: GeronL
36 posted on 7/24/2013 12:55:48 AM by GeronL: “Even as adults a teacher dating their student is not acceptable because of a conflict of interest - did the student deserve those grades or is it payment for services?”

We agree, GeronL. That's what I meant by saying asking for a date may be acceptable after the class is over.

However, now that I see your comment, I realize I wasn't clear about that being after the student-teacher relationship was over.

Maybe I should have said “after the course” — i.e., once the grades have been given and there is no more student-teacher relationship — rather than “after the class,” which is ambiguous. “Class” could mean either one class period on a single day, which is not what I meant, or the entire semester or term, which is what I intended to say.

I realize that even under the best of circumstances, former students dating former teachers will create questions. That is true even if both are adults, even if both are close in age, and even if both have agreed not to be in another class together. People are going to ask if the student and teacher had started dating during the class even the relationship didn't begin until long afterwards.

However, a couple of generations ago when morals were better, it wasn't that unusual for young graduate students to marry — not hook up or sleep with, but marry — former students. I don't think we want to forbid a 24-year-old graduate student from asking a 21-year-old junior out on a date after the course in which he worked as her TA is over. It may not be a good idea, and I'm not going to encourage it, but I think we have to draw the line at forbidding relationships between current students and current teachers, not between former students and former teachers.

38 posted on 07/24/2013 4:18:51 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: SteveH
Steve, I hear your point, and I agree that the teacher's “nothing is off limits” approach created a problem.

However, some things couldn't reasonably be anticipated.

Yes, I know that teachers need to anticipate consequences in advance. Yes, I know that teachers need to anticipate that students will look for loopholes. And yes, I know that an attractive female teacher needs to recognize that young male students may be “thinking with the wrong head,” so to speak.

But I still think that a student writing paper on this topic is so far out of the range of predictable responses that the teacher can be excused for not anticipating this as a possibility. For this to come from an older male student who is married and in his late 50s is even worse.

I do think that cases like this should serve as a warning to teachers about the dangers of open-ended “write about anything” assignments.

39 posted on 07/24/2013 4:29:35 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: Hodar
Well it pays to read the article first.

As per the article the student in question is 57 years old.

Second: "Corlett said students in the English 380 class were told to write honestly and that no topic was off limits."

While I agree that the subject he wrote about is creepy and lewd, If the above guidelines were truly in place for this particular assignment then the college and the professor is guilty of being full of shit for giving this guy trouble over what he wrote. If you don't want someone writing about certain subjects then damn it don't tell everyone involved the exact opposite!

40 posted on 07/24/2013 4:38:42 AM PDT by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
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To: darrellmaurina
I stand by my answer. Many situations can be defused simply by remaining calm. If he misinterpreted my lack of outrage, I'd tell him, "No, I thought it was funny, but we won't be having an affair."

You see, I am a teacher, and I have also taught undergrad classes at the university where I got my Master's. I have been in situations where men or boys decide they have an interest in me, and even if they are rather caddish about expressing it, I don't believe in hurting them professionally or academically over it unless it is necessary. In other words, if they got to where they were stalking or harassing, I'd take it higher, but being an adult means you handle things yourself if you can.

This guy was an idiot, but he deserved a chance to simply be told "No." All she did was make the situation worse, bigger, and more public because without even a warning, she took it to the next level. Women like that reinforce the notion that women just don't have the internal fortitude to handle the workplace, that their delicate feminine sensibilities require that their emotions be placed forefront at all times, and in all places. It makes me understand why men 100 years ago didn't want women working at all: it was enough to have someone having the vapors every time you opened your mouth at home; men didn't want to have to follow parlor-room rules all day too.

Now they can't even escape the specter of Feminine Sensibilities in the military. There is literally no where a man can go anymore without some woman there with her arms crossed, tapping her foot because she's offended. I'm surprised more men haven't simply headed off into the woods and never come back.

41 posted on 07/24/2013 8:22:49 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: darrellmaurina

I don’t agree that things can’t be reasonably anticipated.

The teacher is supposedly a professional and trained on how to come up with assignments. It is their job to come up with well written assignment descriptions and be responsible for the assignments they come up with.

Once the students get the assignment it is their responsibility to perform the assignment. If the assignment involves creativity, it is the student’s task to be as creative as they possibly can.

The teacher is totally on the hook for setting up a situation that the teacher created in which she gives an assignment involving creativity in writing and a student responded with a creatively written response but something which just happens to offend the unwritten, unspoken sensibilities of the teacher. This is wrong. It is as wrong as, for example, condemning Mark Twain for including uncensored slave vernacular in Huckleberry Finn. Twain was castigated at the time for doing that and to he has continued to be castigated for doing that up through modern times.

Teacher responsibility includes blocking off the limits of an assignment in advance if she does not want the students going in a particular direction. As a professional, it is up to her to forecast and provide for the side effects of her own doing. She should not rely on the courts to help correct her mistakes.

Finally it is a writing assignment. Written words do not leap off a page and rape or pillage people. We have brains that distinguish between what someone writes or says, and what someone does.

This woman is simply in the wrong profession. If she is a prude, she should be in a convent praying for her continued eternal chastisty, not a university where freedom of thought and expression should be the first priority.

The courts prefer not to get involved in 1st amendment issues in the university out of laziness. I would not infer that the teacher is correct just because a lower court judge was too lazy and dishonest to honor case law. In the arts, one person’s trash is another person’s treasure. A prudish teacher getting offended due to her own carelessness does not constitute sufficient reason to override existing case law.

Standard disclaimer, I am not a lawyer but on occasion I have watched Perry Mason on TV.


42 posted on 07/24/2013 11:10:16 AM PDT by SteveH (First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.)
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To: Mad Dawgg
" Well it pays to read the article first." Proudly Posting on FreeRepublic Without Reading the Article Since 2000®
43 posted on 07/24/2013 3:49:33 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacituss)
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To: A_perfect_lady; SteveH; Vendome; oxcart; GeronL
Perfect Lady and SteveH, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree.

Perfect Lady, since you are a former college instructor who has had similar issues in the past, I'll give you credit for having actually dealt with obnoxious idiots like this guy. My attitude toward this sorry excuse for a human being is considerably less charitable than yours, but you've actually dealt with “hot for teacher” situations, and apparently you have more patience than I do.

I hope we can all concur on three things:

1) what this man did was wrong,
2) the teacher opened a door by not specifically telling her students that sexually provocative essays about herself could not be written, and
3) this adult married student should have not have walked through that door, even if the teacher left it open.

Where we seem to disagree is whether the teacher could reasonably have anticipated that an open-ended assignment would result in a sex-charged essay by a student toward the teacher.

I guess I need to continue to remind myself that common sense is no longer so common. There are some really creepy people out there, and I guess that means now we need to specifically rule things out as college essay topics which not long ago people would not have considered to be proper subjects for discussion outside their bedrooms with their wives.

44 posted on 07/25/2013 5:14:54 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina

i have also taught classes at the high school level and vocational school level. in my opinion:

1 there is nothing wrong with the assignment as the teacher wrote it;

2 there is nothing wrong with any student work that conforms to the specifications of the assignment;

3 the student’s work so far as has been presented, conforms to the specifications of the assignment;

4 the teacher failed to evaluate the student’s work based on conformance with the specifications of the assignment;

5 the university failed to honor its obligation to support the student in a matter in which the student conformed to the assignment but the teacher failed to evaluation according to the assignment;

6 the lower federal district court failed to honor the law in this matter;

7 the university and the teacher are hypocritical in proclaiming that they are both openminded in their curriculum, and justified in suspending a student who took the curriculum literally;

8 people are entitled to express their opinions on the matter.

teachers and educational institutions are given much leeway in classrooms and so should be held to a much higher standard in these matters. also teachers and educational institutions derive tangible benefits from formal curricula that is inclusive of open and creative inquiry and expression. your reaction of disgust at the student is understandable at the subjective level, but ultimately the instructor was imho arbitrarily and capriciously subjective in a situation which needs and requires a base level of objectivity. penalizing and persecuting a student for explicitly allowed freedom of inquiry and expression is the opposite of the traditional role of a learning institution.


45 posted on 07/25/2013 9:21:45 AM PDT by SteveH (First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.)
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To: darrellmaurina
Where we seem to disagree is whether the teacher could reasonably have anticipated that an open-ended assignment would result in a sex-charged essay by a student toward the teacher.

No, no... I don't think she should have anticipated it (although I bet she will after this.) As a teacher, there are some things you just cannot anticipate till some idiot does them, and there are a lot of stupid, silly people out there. I just think that you always handle things at the lowest possible level (you don't kill a fly with a shot gun), and you always give people at least one chance to correct a mistake. That's all.

46 posted on 07/25/2013 10:11:57 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: darrellmaurina

Those guys are self serving narcissists who’s moral relevancy informs them they are above consequences and they will manipulate others to concede their ground, not their views but, their backbone to ensure painful feedbacbehavior modification takes place.

With guys like them of they aren’t forced to go fetal and endure more pain then this is just one more event in their life.k is given until an appropriate


47 posted on 07/25/2013 10:51:08 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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