Posted on 07/29/2013 5:33:38 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
It's not about whether it is in "the catechism or the bible"....it's about telling the whole truth about what the Church teaches. There is no question that the Church teaches that "outside the Church there is no salvation". Pretty much every work of apologetics I have read addresses the issue and explains what the teaching really means.
Your line of argument is intellectually dishonest.
There’s no question that those who think that Catholic teaching goes beyond the catechism and the bible are wrong
The church doesn’t have any teaching that is unspoken unwritten and secret
Drop it
You are ignorant of the facts
And you are lying about the Church
I agree with you. He should have been more careful when he discussed it with the press.
There are no true books on apologetics which cite sources and teaching outside of the bible and the catechism ormake things up To do so is heretical
It’s why I am asking for the sentence and the source
Still not getting the answer
Exactly.
The ignorant one here is you. The Catechism devotes a whole section to the "...no salvation outside the Church..." teaching and what it means.
From the Catechism:
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
"And you are lying about the Church...
And the only liar here is you.
That's two strikes. Care to try for three??
The assertion about which you are referring, stated, days ago, by Metmom, who gave up trying, was that the Catholic church states that unless one is a Catholic, he or she cannot achieve salvation.
That is simply not so.
The Church does not state that unless one is Catholic, he or she cannot get into heaven.
Nothing in the Bible nor in the Catechism states that.
If it did, it would be in one sentence, like, ‘I am the way, the truth and the life.’
It would be a profound teaching, and it would be simple and it would be divinely inspired, as it is not something any person or group of people could make up.
It would be stated By God very clearly, like on the tablets of the Commandments, as it is the path to heaven and it would be extremely clear.
Additionally, if it were so, Catholics would exhibit a profoundly different way of evangelizations. They would resemble Jehovah’s Witnesses or Evangelical Protestants, but they don’t, because it is not in the teaching of the Catholic Church that in order to be saved people need to be Catholic.
But it doesn’t teach that, therefore, Catholics are not simply lazy and uncaring, as some might think who are under the impression that Catholics are taught that the only way to salvation is through being a Catholic.
They handle evangelization much differently from that.
And they do listen very attentively to God’s Word, which never tells them that unless people are Catholic, they cannot get to heaven.
Catholics do not interpret the Bible they study the Bible itself, and turn to the theologians going back to the time of Christ, the Apostles, Paul, particularly, in his letters to the Romans, Corinthians, Colossians, and the Church Fathers, also, Timothy, Paul’s companion.
And they do not sit around and opine about what this means and what that means and go out and assert it.
They do not go about saying who is going to be saved and who isn’t based on their opinions of what God meant.
Their priesthood and its traditions go back to St. Peter, who was with Jesus during His time, and nowhere did he, Paul, Jesus, Mary, nor any of the Saints nor the Popes, bishops nor Patriarchs say that unless one is Catholic, one cannot enter heaven.
I might add, in case you are compelled to print or link to the Catechism, that Catholics do not read into the Catechism.
What’s in there is written for the laity and in lay terms, easy to understand. So, the full understanding is that we do not read between the lines.
The language is clear.
If the Church wanted us and the world to know that Catholics are the only ones to get into heaven, that’s what it would say.
If there are other sects or religions which state this about their religion, that is up to them, but to ascribe it to the Catholic Church for whatever reason is just not the truth.
None of your long-winded diatribe is telling me anything I don't already know. Before I joined the RCC, I read the Catechism cover-to-cover, and many, many, many other works on Catholicism and what it taught/teaches. Plus my wife is a cradle Catholic. I TEACH RCIA.
"The language is clear.",
Indeed, the language "is" clear, and it says precisely what "I" have said all along.
You're so focussed on somehow "winning the argument" that you miss opportunities to teach what the Church actually "does" say.
And in addition your "style" will (and does) simply alienate people.....even those who actually agree with you.
One sentence is all we need.
You cannot provide it because it is not there
I question your intent, now, with all the insults
I did provide it. It's the part in BOLD PRINT in post 506. Your reaction is simply not to see it. Putting your hands over your eyes will not make the quote go away.
"I question your intent, now, with all the insults"
I didn't start the insults...you did. And your continuing denial of reality makes me begin to doubt your sanity.
Nothing is gained by denying the truth, and the truth is that the RCC does teach that "outside the Church there is no salvation". Where the Protestants "go astray" on this issue is by not understanding what the RCC understands comprises "the Church", which is NOT solely the set of living, practicing members of the RCC on earth.
Only God knows who are the "members" of His Church, as He selects them. Some (many?) active practicing RCC's are NOT "members", despite appearances. And some Protestants, atheists, agnostics, and heathens ARE members in good standing....again despite appearances.
One sentence
You cannot produce it
It doesn’t exist
Give up and ask yourself why you are persisting with a false statement
Any further assertions of the same or a different premise should be directed to a Catholic priest
I did produce it, and it most certainly DOES exist. The sentence is right there in the Catechism...."There is no salvation outside the Church".
Did you think I made up that section in bold print?? If so, assuming you actually even OWN a copy of the Catechism, look it up. The section numbers are there, and will be the same no matter what the pagination happens to be in your specific copy.
"Give up and ask yourself why you are persisting with a false statement.
I'm persisting because it most emphatically is NOT a "false teaching". The only one here "persisting with a false statement" is you, by denying what the Catechism directly proclaims.
As to a Catholic priest, I see mine weekly at Mass, and bi- or tri-weekly at Confession. You need to make a good Confession about your lies as soon as you can arrange it.
But one cannot have a sane, logical discussion with an insane person, and I think you qualify. Good luck in whatever alternate reality you live in mentally.
Look at the original argument you jumped in on.
This does not say that if someone is not Catholic they cannot get into heaven.
Such a sentence would read as such, the original assertion.
I will respond to this only after you have left this dead end track and have gone to speak with a Catholic priest
If you will not speak with a priest now about this then your regard for the Church and its tenets are low and no longer worth a moment of my time
I don't care about the "original argument". You jumped on another posters comment about what the church DOES teach (i.e. "..no salvation outside the church").
"This does not say that if someone is not Catholic they cannot get into heaven. Such a sentence would read as such, the original assertion."
That's right, it doesn't. And that is not the point, and has nothing to do with the point.
"I will respond to this only after you have left this dead end track and have gone to speak with a Catholic priest.
PLEASE hold your breath waiting. There is no reason for me to "see a priest", because "I" am telling the absolute truth as taught by the church. "You" are the one distorting the Church's teaching(s).
"If you will not speak with a priest now about this then your regard for the Church and its tenets are low and no longer worth a moment of my time"
Believe what you like. I know what the truth is, and have told it. GOOD-BYE and good riddance.
No. There was no jumping by anyone but you
Now, I suggest you print out the thread, highlight your comments. Bring it to a priest and ask him your question or tell him what it is you have an issue with and be prepared to tell him why you have suuch an issue with sorting about a religion that is not yours
Post 476 to FortySeven's very reasonable post 475.
"Now, I suggest you print out the thread, highlight your comments. Bring it to a priest and ask him your question or tell him what it is you have an issue with and be prepared to tell him why you have suuch an issue with sorting about a religion that is not yours"
And what religion might that be "that is not yours", since I am a member in good standing of the RCC, attend mass and Eucharistic Adoration weekly, teach RCIA, and other stewardship??
You're the one denying one of the Church's infallible doctrines ("no salvation outside the Church"), not me.
I suggest you print out the thread, highlight your own comments, roll the paper into a tightly wrapped cylinder. Wind barbed wire around it, and use it for a suppository.
Speak witha priest abot York assertions. If you won’t you are wasting your time my time and you haven’t enough regard for the church than to fling unfounded accusations
But I am finished here
Good!
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