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Vatican's shift on gay priests may influence civil law in US
Allvoices ^ | Monday, July 29, 2013 | Paul Jesep

Posted on 07/29/2013 10:25:42 AM PDT by Jyotishi

Rome, Italy: Pope Francis made a seismic shift in Vatican policy this week. He appeared to accept the service of gay priests who don’t act on their sexuality.

The implications can’t be overstated. It has the potential to influence the views of those opposed to LGBTQ legal rights in many American states and countries throughout the world.

Celibacy is a requirement to serve in the Catholic priesthood. Hence, it shouldn’t matter if the priest is gay or straight. Hence, celibacy becomes the key, not the sexual orientation. This changes much of the discussion.

According to the pope, “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” He added, “You can’t marginalize these people.”

The comments raise questions about long-standing Vatican policies that are spiritually and emotionally abusive. The predecessor of Pope Francis, Benedict, said homosexuality, “is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." Of course, science has long rebutted the notion homosexuality is a “disorder.”

In his comment, Francis spoke to the personhood of every individual, regardless of his calling to the priesthood. In doing so, he has set the stage for a lively, much needed discussion about human sexuality.

Will the Vatican now take a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach to the priesthood? Will it permit celibate, but openly gay priests to serve? What message does it send to LGBTQ Catholics long marginalized by orthodox Catholics and conservative hierarchs, if openly, celibate gay priests serve the holy sacraments?

If a gay or straight priest acts on a need for physical intimacy and companionship, what makes it a sin, breaking the vow given to the church over celibacy?

If an openly gay, celibate priest is worthy to serve Eucharist, solemnize straight marriages, and perform the last rites at someone’s bedside, how is it possible two parishioners of the same gender can’t have a blessing of their union, though not called a marriage?

Will gay, celibate priests be able to speak out against such injustices as discrimination in housing and employment due to sexual identity? Will a lesbian teacher now be allowed to keep her job at a Catholic school?

Does acceptance of gay priests finally break the ugly, hateful stereotype someone gay is inclined to be a pedophile, long perpetuated by conservative elements in the Catholic Church, but disavowed by science?

The comments made by Francis have enormous implications, assuming the dogmatists in the Vatican, once they’ve recovered from their shock, don’t down play his words and reaffirm Catholic orthodoxy without appearing to disagree with the pope.

This will either be a period of holy revelation for Catholics or one of growing theological and philosophical friction. Either way, this may be a very exciting time for the Catholic Church.

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Paul Jesep is a policy analyst, corporate chaplain, and author of “Lost Sense of Self & the Ethics Crisis: Learn to Live and Work Ethically”.

PJesep is based in Schenectady, New York, United States of America, and is an Anchor for Allvoices.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholic; christian; homosexualagenda; popefrancis; religion; sodomy
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1 posted on 07/29/2013 10:25:42 AM PDT by Jyotishi
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To: Jyotishi
In doing so, he has set the stage for a lively, much needed discussion about human sexuality.

Swell. Just what we DON'T need.


2 posted on 07/29/2013 10:27:47 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Jyotishi
Can gays be celibate? To me it is an oxymoron.
3 posted on 07/29/2013 10:29:58 AM PDT by Cowboy Bob (Democrats: Robbing Peter to buy Paul's vote.)
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To: Jyotishi

Has there actually been a shift in RC policy and practice?

Are the statements by the Popes contradictory?


4 posted on 07/29/2013 10:31:26 AM PDT by mbarker12474
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To: Jyotishi

More from the writer

“The comments rai.se questions about long-standing Vatican policies that are spiritually and emotionally abusive. The predecessor of Pope Francis, Benedict, said homosexuality, “is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” “

Correct

“Of course, science has long rebutted the notion homosexuality is a “disorder.” “

BS.


5 posted on 07/29/2013 10:31:35 AM PDT by Hostage (Be Breitbart!)
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To: Cowboy Bob

Yea, to me gay is a verb.


6 posted on 07/29/2013 10:31:43 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Cowboy Bob

Priests face terrible temptations. Celibacy is a challenge for both gay and straight priests.

Priests who break their vows are not spending enough time with Christ in humble prayer. When we cease to pray, we lose the ability to resist our temptations. Holds true for the ordained and the laity.


7 posted on 07/29/2013 10:33:29 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Jyotishi

I hope this is erroneous reporting of a blabbermouth Pope who needs to watch his diarrhea of the mouth


8 posted on 07/29/2013 10:33:35 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Jyotishi

If only the “orientation” is present, and not the behavior or the self-advertising, then there is nothing to be observed, judged, or objected to.


9 posted on 07/29/2013 10:34:05 AM PDT by G Larry (Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Psalms 109:8)
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To: Jyotishi

This article is trash

Look for the Pope to restate his position which is the Catholic position and always has been

This article staes that there is hatred in the conservative circles of the Church

This is ignorant beyond reason for any journalist

There is no such thing as a coservative circle in the Church. It is not a democrat organization

It’s members do mot get to opine nor onfluence it. When they don’t like that they can separate from the Church in disobedience and free (but not God’s) will

Second, there is no hatred toward people in the Church. It unwaveringly states that homosexual acts are sin, bit that those who have mere temptation without acting on it are not in sin

It’s in the Catechism


10 posted on 07/29/2013 10:36:40 AM PDT by stanne
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To: Cowboy Bob

He did not state that priests should enter the clergy. In fact the Church states that they should not do so, as temptation is there


11 posted on 07/29/2013 10:38:10 AM PDT by stanne
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To: Jyotishi
He appeared to accept the service of gay priests who don’t act on their sexuality.

It isn't my place to judge, but I have questions.

Who benefits by this opinion? Is it for the gay priests' benefit or for the lost sheep and lambs? Or something else?

Can the gay priest speak to everything that Scripture teaches with the same spirit, conviction and intent as the Original Teacher, so that his flock isn't lead astray?

To what end is this designed to lead Peter's Church to?

12 posted on 07/29/2013 10:38:34 AM PDT by GBA (Our obamanation: Romans 1:18-32)
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To: yldstrk

I think in a sense these comments speak to his naiveté regarding public discourse in our current cultural decline. Perhaps he as led a cloistered existence and doesn’t fully grasp the rabid nature with which the immoral will twist and turn the words of truth for their own purposes.

In some ways his naiveté is more dangerous than his would be acceptance of homosexual priests.

The catholic church has knowingly allowed gays into the seminaries because they fear a decline of priests to lead the flocks, instead they have let in the wolves.

Pray for priests and the pope, they are under constant attack because they strive for the salvation of souls. Follow Christ and love your neighbor. Easier said than done.


13 posted on 07/29/2013 10:43:07 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Jyotishi
the ugly, hateful stereotype someone gay is inclined to be a pedophile

Because of course NAMBLA was founded by heteros, and 98% of the priestly molestation cases were not adult males fondling adolescent altar boys.

14 posted on 07/29/2013 10:44:51 AM PDT by Argus
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To: Jyotishi

A link to the catechism statement on homosexuality

It’s no different from what the pope said

The news will have a whole month of fodder over this and the sweet pope will clarify and regret trusting the media to exhibit intelligence and logic

Free Republic will post these anti Catholic sources gleefully
Trust National Catholic Register not Reporter and EWTN.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357


15 posted on 07/29/2013 10:49:52 AM PDT by stanne
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To: Jyotishi

The Vatican did not “shift” at all. It as always been the policy that if someone suffers from a homosexual orientation, it’s like any other problem (for example, being born with a birth defect that leaves one crippled) and is a cross that must be dealt with. A person who is crippled cannot let himself be swamped by anger and bitterness or attempt to cripple other people of jealousy; a person who has homosexual tendencies (which I think are the result of upbringing) cannot let them take him over and cannot act on them.

Obviously, acting on a homosexual tendency would be a sin and encouraging it would be a sin, as he clearly points out. But people can fall and repent and come back again, and this has ALWAYS been the position of the Church. And it was not up to him to judge them (because only God can judge). That was all he was saying, not that homosexuality was ok.

I also think he wants to avoid having witch-hunts in the Church (he was asked about this in connection with the charges that an appointee of his was homosexual, which he had investigated and found without cause).

In addition, he made the point that when people become a “lobby,” they are essentially leaving the Faith for some cause of their own, and setting it up to the destruction of the Church.

Remember when Benedict said that some people argued that condom use was permissible in Africa (because of AIDS) but that they were not even useful in preventing AIDS - and the press came out saying that BXVI had announced that condoms were ok?

I think Pope Francis should be more careful about what he says, but at the same time, there’s really no way to keep the press from twisting his words, no matter how bland or neutral they may be.


16 posted on 07/29/2013 10:51:50 AM PDT by livius
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To: don-o; ArrogantBustard

Of course this spin is just malicious propaganda, but it illustrates why a Pope must be very careful in both his official pronouncements as well as his off the cuff remarks and interviews.


17 posted on 07/29/2013 10:53:41 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: mbarker12474
Has there actually been a shift in RC policy and practice?

Are the statements by the Popes contradictory?

No shift. Pope made distinction between the sin or temptation and the person. The person who is tempted should be cared for. The person who acts on activity is sinning gravely.

Not said is whether public knowledge of the sin disqualifies from priesthood. What is confessed in the sacrament of penance remains, as always, secret. I can't imagine an publicly active homosexual priest would remain in the ministry.

18 posted on 07/29/2013 10:55:24 AM PDT by HapaxLegamenon
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To: Argus

Understanding why homosexuality leads to pedophilia requires a truthful look into homosexuality... Here goes hope I don’t get censored.

Men who enjoy sex with other men ( and animals and children ) do so because of the thrill of the taboo. In other words it is the thrill of doing perverted things and evil things that results in a high. Once the initial thrill of doing the taboo wears off, the perversion must be extended to regain the high. Look to examples of S&M behavior and torture combined with sexual acts. This leads to pornography, orgies and sex with children as it becomes impossible to achieve the high without increasing the degree of depravity. Homosexuality comes from a love of the perverse not from the love of another human being. It comes from a desire to rebel against the rules ( i.e. God’s natural law)

Now who started the rebellion? Look at the dedication in Saul Alinsky’s rules for radicals if you need a refresher.


19 posted on 07/29/2013 10:55:55 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Jyotishi
The comments raise questions about long-standing Vatican policies that are spiritually and emotionally abusive. The predecessor of Pope Francis, Benedict, said homosexuality, “is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." Of course, science has long rebutted the notion homosexuality is a “disorder.” In his comment, Francis spoke to the personhood of every individual, regardless of his calling to the priesthood. In doing so, he has set the stage for a lively, much needed discussion about human sexuality.

Will the Vatican now take a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach to the priesthood? Will it permit celibate, but openly gay priests to serve? What message does it send to LGBTQ Catholics long marginalized by orthodox Catholics and conservative hierarchs, if openly, celibate gay priests serve the holy sacraments? If a gay or straight priest acts on a need for physical intimacy and companionship, what makes it a sin, breaking the vow given to the church over celibacy? If an openly gay, celibate priest is worthy to serve Eucharist, solemnize straight marriages, and perform the last rites at someone’s bedside, how is it possible two parishioners of the same gender can’t have a blessing of their union, though not called a marriage? Will gay, celibate priests be able to speak out against such injustices as discrimination in housing and employment due to sexual identity? Will a lesbian teacher now be allowed to keep her job at a Catholic school? Does acceptance of gay priests finally break the ugly, hateful stereotype someone gay is inclined to be a pedophile, long perpetuated by conservative elements in the Catholic Church, but disavowed by science?

What does a celibate-but-openly-gay priest look like?

20 posted on 07/29/2013 10:56:26 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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To: Jyotishi
great...a papal decree of “don't ask don't tell”
21 posted on 07/29/2013 10:57:33 AM PDT by stylin19a (Obama -> Fredo smart)
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To: stylin19a; MinuteGal

“great...a papal decree of “don’t ask don’t tell””

LOL. Well said. Boy don’t you have that right. This Pope has to learn to button his lip, because I don’t think I want to know what is on this Pope’s mind. I might be further horrified.


22 posted on 07/29/2013 11:03:24 AM PDT by flaglady47 (When the gov't fears the people, liberty; When the people fear the gov't, tyranny.)
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To: Alex Murphy
What does a celibate-but-openly-gay priest look like?

What does a celibate-but-openly-gay "Orthodox" Presbyterian look like?

What does a celibate-but-openly-gay person of any religion (or no religion) look like?

Is celibate-but-openly-gay an oxymoron?

23 posted on 07/29/2013 11:03:56 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Is celibate-but-openly-gay an oxymoron?

Precisely what I was thinking.

24 posted on 07/29/2013 11:05:09 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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To: Jyotishi

The Pope just split his britches on that one. Nevermind what he privately thinks, the perception of his comment is very damaging.


25 posted on 07/29/2013 11:05:32 AM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
but it illustrates why a Pope must be very careful

Hmmm ... aeons ago, I was a teacher. One the first things I learned was that no matter how carefully I wrote or said something, no matter how much I tried to resolve possible ambiguities, some joker would find a way to misconstrue it.

26 posted on 07/29/2013 11:05:51 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Jyotishi
What does a celibate-but-openly-gay priest look like?

A guy in handcuffs after he is arrested for abusing young boys.

27 posted on 07/29/2013 11:08:11 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: Cowboy Bob

I don’t think it’s an oxymoron, because the question, “Can heterosexuals be celibate?” is also a valid question.

There are plenty of heterosexuals who have made the personal decision to remain celibate for a higher personal goal.


28 posted on 07/29/2013 11:08:51 AM PDT by 353FMG ( I do not say whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: Alex Murphy
What does it say of someone if he wraps up his whole identity in his temptation to commit a particular sin?

(I fumble-fingered that word as "warps" ... corrected it, but the inadvertent typing error had some truth to it.)

29 posted on 07/29/2013 11:09:11 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Alex Murphy
What does a celibate-but-openly-gay "Orthodox" Presbyterian look like?

A guy in handcuffs after he is arrested for abusing young boys.

30 posted on 07/29/2013 11:11:14 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: Cowboy Bob

Well, it’s not like the church has ever had any problems with gay priests before...

/sarc


31 posted on 07/29/2013 11:12:11 AM PDT by Dr. Pritchett
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To: 353FMG
There are plenty of heterosexuals who have made the personal decision to remain celibate for a higher personal goal.

The desire, in the abstract, to engage in sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex is not a desire to commit sin. It becomes sinful when the desire is specifically directed toward someone other than one's spouse.

The desire, in the abstract, to engage in genital arousal conduct with a person of the same sex is inherently a desire to commit sin.

Thus the normal person who abstains from sexual relations is giving up one good for what he perceives as a greater good.

The person who abstains from homosexual genital arousal is abstaining from that which is inherently evil.

32 posted on 07/29/2013 11:13:28 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

As they split hairs and argue technicalities the faithful diminish in numbers and the power of the church to overcome evil loses its voice. Slowly I turn away from them and ignore their words.


33 posted on 07/29/2013 11:18:15 AM PDT by Rapscallion (Obama does not know how bad he really is.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; All

Hmmm ... aeons ago, I was a teacher. One the first things I learned was that no matter how carefully I wrote or said something, no matter how much I tried to resolve possible ambiguities, some joker would find a way to misconstrue it.

________________________________

As another teacher I can state the same.

And we KNOW the press will always attempt to misconstrue what this Pope says...to suit their own perspective and/or agenda.

It still amazes me how gullible many Americans are.

Sigh...


34 posted on 07/29/2013 11:22:00 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Jyotishi

If that is true, I have just lost my trust of Pope Francis.
What a way to begin His Papacy.
Sad, Sad , Sad..h


35 posted on 07/29/2013 11:22:11 AM PDT by chatham
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To: SumProVita
It still amazes me how gullible many Americans are.

I am convinced that many who accept the distortions and fabrications from Big Media are not gullible ... they deliberately seek evil, and wallow in it when they find it.

36 posted on 07/29/2013 11:24:34 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Jyotishi
The slightest softening by any conservative institution is heralded as a major trophy by the Gaystapo, and these statements made by Francis were out of the park.

I witnessed in horror the Southern Baptist Convention meeting with radical homosexual activists last year at their national convention, and I was disheartened beyond telling. Merely giving them a place at the table was a major victory for the sodomites, even though they didn't get the answer they wanted. They operate by microscopic incrementalism.

37 posted on 07/29/2013 11:30:05 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Unfortunately, THAT segment of our society is growing as well.

;-(


38 posted on 07/29/2013 11:34:44 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; don-o; ArrogantBustard
Nail on the head.

I hope there is a clarification forthcoming from the Vatican. Francis I's choice of words has serious implications when read out of context, which is, of course, how virtually everyone will read them. They will cause much mischief if not quickly qualified.

39 posted on 07/29/2013 11:40:02 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: Jyotishi
"Of course, science has long rebutted the notion homosexuality is a “disorder.”

Of course, 'science' has done no such thing.

40 posted on 07/29/2013 11:41:41 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Army dad. And damned proud.)
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To: Jyotishi

I don’t think this was meant to be a shift at all. He was just saying he can’t judge them soley on their orientation, if they are a priest now. That doesn’t mean they should be ordained going forward.


41 posted on 07/29/2013 11:42:07 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Wow, the main street media is evil... unless it is twisting the words of the Pope and bashing the Catholic Church. Then the press is sacrosanct and everything it reports is 100% accurate. Sheesh.


42 posted on 07/29/2013 11:45:08 AM PDT by Armando Guerra
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To: Jyotishi

Cristian Brothers and Priests praying(D’oh) on young people Part II


43 posted on 07/29/2013 11:47:05 AM PDT by molson209
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To: Jyotishi
MOST of the priests who were pedophiles were homosexual.
Homosexuals have done more to blacken the Catholic churches name than any other entity and ignoring them or playing nice with them will be a huge mistake. The same mistake as allowing them to adopt children.
44 posted on 07/29/2013 11:49:28 AM PDT by Larry381 ("Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.")
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To: fwdude
The SBC has recently shown troubling signs of relenting their stance against homosexualism. As you say, even the slightest concessions are damaging. Every inch thus conceded will only be won back with much pain and suffering.

This blurtation on the part of Francis I, grossly misinterpreted as it surely is, still constitutes far more than an inch. It will be walked back only with the greatest difficulty. But it must be walked back, lest the enemy be allowed to mold the words to fit his own schemes.

45 posted on 07/29/2013 11:52:38 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: Jyotishi
Pope Francis made a seismic shift in Vatican policy this week. He appeared to accept the service of gay priests who don’t act on their sexuality.

That's not really a"seismic shift" is it? I believe that was pretty much the position of the previous Pope and maybe the one before (i.e. you don't choose what tempts you, but you do choose whether to act on that temptation or not)

46 posted on 07/29/2013 11:55:32 AM PDT by MEGoody (You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: jboot
Every inch thus conceded will only be won back with much pain and suffering.

Very true, but you are far too optimistic even in this assessment. An inch conceded through a statement will establish a precedent that cannot be undone - a word spoken can never be unspoken. It will remain as an indelible foothold for some future anarchist to point to as a point of traction.

This is why the BSA will never be what it once was, even if they completely reverse the new unconscionable policy change made in May.

47 posted on 07/29/2013 12:02:31 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: fwdude
a word spoken can never be unspoken. It will remain as an indelible foothold for some future anarchist to point to as a point of traction.

Preach it! The time for idle "grace talk" is over for now. We need to guard our tongues well and give the enemy no footholds.

48 posted on 07/29/2013 12:09:52 PM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: fwdude
An inch conceded through a statement will establish a precedent that cannot be undone - a word spoken can never be unspoken.

Nonsense. A thousand opinions and a hundred million words from libertines and God haters will not change the teaching of the Church one iota. Book it.

49 posted on 07/29/2013 12:13:07 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: longfellowsmuse

“Priests face terrible temptations. Celibacy is a challenge for both gay and straight priests.”

Isn’t the biggest problem not that they are gay but they are petafiles and open the alterboys to the lawsuits now going on?

Those priest were it seemed gay and yet celibacy did not seem to restrict their actions.


50 posted on 07/29/2013 12:14:15 PM PDT by edcoil (Something wonderful is going to happen today!)
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