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Vanity, lets do a brainstorm: How do we END property taxes (permanently)?
JSDude1 | 7/30/2013 | Myself

Posted on 07/30/2013 12:00:05 PM PDT by JSDude1

Ok people here's the problem: Property taxes I am sure you agree are un-American! Why should we ~rent~ our own property from the various government entities rather than owning it outright, for all of time for our personal use/posterity!?

So here's the question: what do we need to do to END PROPERTY TAXES? (I know we are a smart bunch, much smarter than the left-so we CAN get this done, somehow..).


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: assessment; home; localsalestax; propertytax
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I'll get it started: Here's one of my ideas.

1) First itemize what our property taxes are going to pay for.

2) Get as many of these government functions off of our public books, and into private hands (privatization)

3) We permanently end property taxes, and replace any revenue necessary for the remaining city/municipal functions that can't be privatized with local sales taxes.

Your thoughts, other comments?

1 posted on 07/30/2013 12:00:05 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: JSDude1

1) Take away everybody’s property!...............see how easy that was?.....


2 posted on 07/30/2013 12:01:11 PM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: JSDude1

Have everybody that does not want property taxes move to locales that don’t have them.

At some point (see Detroit) the remaining property-taxed-to-the-maxed locales go under. The locales that figured it out prosper.


3 posted on 07/30/2013 12:02:05 PM PDT by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: JSDude1
I would make type of taxation a local issue. Property taxes are pretty much local (city, county), and there are some areas (Ozarks) where real property taxes are negligible.

Rather than completely doing away with property taxes, I would work more towards restricting the ability to seize a property to satisfy the debt. I'm not aware the government seizing goods on which sales tax hasn't been paid.

Large scale public school alternatives would likely provide an opportunity to lower property taxes, as well.
4 posted on 07/30/2013 12:04:58 PM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: JSDude1

fees


5 posted on 07/30/2013 12:06:02 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: JSDude1
It's not exactly property taxes, but this idea for a constitutional amendment reform of our [income] tax system covers a lot of the issues with the property-tax in Sec II.
Tax Reform Amendment
Section I
No tax, federal or state, shall ever be withheld from the wages of a worker of any citizen of either.

Section II
No property shall be seized for failure to pay taxes until after conviction in a jury trial; the right of the jury to nullify (and thereby forgive) this debt shall never be questioned or denied.

Section III
The second amendment is hereby recognized as restricting the power of taxation, both federal and state, therefore no tax (or fine) shall be laid upon munitions or the sale thereof.

Section IV
The seventh amendment is also hereby recognized, and nothing in this amendment shall restrict the right of a citizen to seek civil redress.

Section V
No income tax levied by the federal government, the several States, or any subdivision of either shall ever exceed 10%.

Section VI
No income tax levied by the federal government, the several States, or any subdivision of either shall ever apply varying rates to those in its jurisdiction.

Section VII
No retroactive or ex post facto tax (or fee) shall ever be valid.

Section VIII
The congress may not delegate the creation of any tax or fine in any way.

Section IX
No federal employee, representative, senator, judge, justice or agent shall ever be exempt from any tax, fine, or fee by virtue of their position.

Section X
Any federal employee, representative, senator, judge, justice or agent applying, attempting to apply, or otherwise causing the application of an ex post facto or retroactive law shall, upon conviction, be evicted from office and all retirement benefits forfeit.

6 posted on 07/30/2013 12:07:40 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: JSDude1

Pretty simple actually. Based on the current attitude toward illegal immigration, we simply stop paying them. It will take a few years of myopic, whiney posts about how being punished for not paying property taxes separates families, and scares children, but we can point out, we are avoiding taxes to improve our lives. Congress will be obligated to forgive us, and let us continue not to pay taxes while promising to collect those taxes some time in the future. We might have to pay a $2500.00 fine though.


7 posted on 07/30/2013 12:08:50 PM PDT by Yogafist
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To: JSDude1

Ending any funding source that has existed for more than four years will be almost impossible as government programs become immortal. (That’s my fear about Obama-care.) I believe that property taxes were ruled constitutional in the ‘30’s. That means there is no constitutional rationale to stop them. Therefore I suggest that a constitutional amendment. But, I know Republicans (freepers) who feel that rich people should pay their “fair” share and that elderly people and “the poor” shouldn’t have to pay as much property tax. Incidentally, these taxes are supposed to fund education which I believe runs between $14k per student and $28k per student. But the largest property tax for the middle class is probably only a fraction of that, so, where does the additional money come from? (Business.)

Also, there are shared services that homeowners do use, like fire protection and garbage collection. Those would need alternative funding.

The primary thing, though, is to cut down the size and scope of what government does to something like it was in 1920. With the internet and computers why, for example, is it necessary to have the DMV? Assuming that function survives your cut, why isn’t hit subbed out to, say, Wal-Mart?


8 posted on 07/30/2013 12:08:50 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: Red Badger

Beat me to it.

Besides - no one truly owns property anyway. Big Brother will take his share. If you protest - he will take it all.


9 posted on 07/30/2013 12:09:41 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Red Badger

LOL BEST ANSWER OF THE DAY


10 posted on 07/30/2013 12:11:07 PM PDT by NEMDF
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To: JSDude1

Property taxes that go for local infrastructure and protective services are reasonable (not strictly necessary; but reasonable). Streets, sewer and water systems, parks, etc. support property values. Fire and police are essential services — municipal governments aren’t the only way of providing them; but, so long as the costs are contained, they are a “reasonable” use for property taxes.

Property taxes should not be used to fund e.g. social welfare programs. That simply creates a vicious circle; as the more affluent move to escape the taxes, and an increasingly larger proportion of the remaining population are recipients of those services. Detroit is a case in point.


11 posted on 07/30/2013 12:11:17 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

Simply end them.
You pay for what you want. I pay for what I want.
The whole thing gets voted on every 1-2-5 yrs or whatever the voters decide.

The one caveat: If you get paid/maintained/receive taxpayer dollars, you can’t vote. Let the PAYERS decide how much they want to pay, let the moochers be damned.


12 posted on 07/30/2013 12:20:33 PM PDT by Macoozie (1) Win the Senate 2) Repeal Obamacare 3) Impeach Roberts)
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To: JSDude1

Property taxes vs sales taxes:

Sales taxes favor the big box store, the Amazon warehouse, the auto dealership - and give poor year to year stability in how much taxes are raised. When your city, and your neighboring city are all seeking the same source of taxation, it becomes ‘whatever the business needs to succeed’. And ultimately, your city becomes dependent upon residents of other cities paying sales taxes in your town - which they won’t do because you charge more sales taxes than neighboring cities.

Property taxes favor the homeowner as housing prices rise with the maintenance of city infrastructure, schools, police and fire.

Of the two systems, property taxes are the way to go. Raising them can make homeowners irate, and they are much more likely to take action, vs raises in sales taxes, whereupon even city residents simply go to neighboring cities to make their purchases.


13 posted on 07/30/2013 12:20:56 PM PDT by kingu (Everything starts with slashing the size and scope of the federal government.)
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To: JSDude1
Most charts I've seen have over half of property tax receipts going to schools. So privatize that and most poor kids won't get educated. And with AP saying that 4 out of 5 US adults are facing proverty, pretty much only our elite will have a high school eduation.

Hey but we weren't voting very smart anyway, so why waste the dollars on an education if they aren't going to use it. Besides they ain't your kids. Sure you want to live in a society where everyone can read the sign, but not if you have to pay for it. /s

Next is probably funding local municipalities. People who are robbed should pay for the police to investigate. And people whose houses burn down should pay for the fire trucks to keep it from spreading to their neighbors. If they can't pay, lock them up...oh well, someone would have to pay for that. so let's just shoot them, we can set up a voluntary deadbeat elimination ammo fund. There's probably people in your community that would shoot them for free. You can dump the bodies in the river to avoid burial costs. /s

You don't really need all those other city services. Who needs planning? If they build a bar next to my house, that's just more target practice. And building codes.... nobody needs to tell me how to build a house. If it burns down 10 times and takes the neighbor's houses with it, well that's their fault for building too close to me. /s

And some go to county services like sheriffs. But who needs them, that's why we moved out of the city in the first place so we could do what we like. /s

And orphans, well, they should sign a promissory note until they are old enough to work and then they should have to pay back every dime with interest. /s

By the way, property taxes are probably the oldest tax in America. Funny you should think they are un-American.

14 posted on 07/30/2013 12:23:03 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: JSDude1

Tarring and feathering a few hundred tax collectors is an oldie but goodie.


15 posted on 07/30/2013 12:24:43 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: JSDude1

Property tax is ok if:
Make all buildings by the sq. ft. all no farm land by the acre. People will be able to make home improvements without seeing their taxes go up. The ghetto property will still have to pay or sell to someone who will fix it up or demolish it. Quit punishing success and subsidizing failure.


16 posted on 07/30/2013 12:28:37 PM PDT by MCF
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To: C210N
Have everybody that does not want property taxes move to locales that don’t have them.

Great idea! Maybe you could point out an American locale that DOESN'T have property taxes...

17 posted on 07/30/2013 12:30:45 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: JSDude1

Abolish government schrools. That gets rid of half of property taxes.


18 posted on 07/30/2013 12:33:58 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: Gen.Blather
Ending any funding source that has existed for more than four hundred years will be almost impossible

Fixed it for you.

19 posted on 07/30/2013 12:34:46 PM PDT by ReignOfError
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To: DannyTN
By the way, property taxes are probably the oldest tax in America. Funny you should think they are un-American.

Stealing your property after several years because of unpaid property taxes is a VERY recent development - within the last several decades.

I don't like renting my paid-off property from the government. Do you?

20 posted on 07/30/2013 12:37:16 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: JSDude1

It should be kept in mind that real estate transfers are commonly taxed at relatively low rates and exempt from sales taxes, and gains from real estate are commonly taxed at lower capital gains tax rates instead of as ordinary income. If we were to adopt an alternative tax system of some sort to replace property taxes, taxes on real estate transaction and gains would almost certainly be increased.


21 posted on 07/30/2013 12:40:30 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Red Badger; Responsibility2nd
1) Take away everybody’s property!...............see how easy that was?.....

I'd laugh, but it occurs to me that Feudalism is one of two known solutions to the problem of long-term labor surpluses. I don't put it past the other side to dust it off and give it another try.

22 posted on 07/30/2013 12:45:08 PM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: JSDude1

One thing that I would like to see done, and it could be implemented quickly, is a lifetime property tax option. Based on mortality tables you could pay your property tax for your future lifetime in one lump-sum amount (or x number of payments) based on a life expectancy formula. This would allow people to be able to retire with having their house paid off AND their taxes paid off for the rest of their life so they would never have to fear losing their home or being unable to afford it later in life.


23 posted on 07/30/2013 12:48:13 PM PDT by LivingNet
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To: jboot

If you think about it, feudalism is exactly what the elitists want.

They want different rules for them as “nobility” and us as the “peasants”.


24 posted on 07/30/2013 12:49:30 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: kiryandil

Well, I spoke too broadly. But, there are places that HURT property-tax wise, and others that have found mostly other means to pay for services:

If you live in any of these states (% paid of median home value):

New Jersey - 1.89%
New Hampshire - 1.86%
Texas - 1.81%
Wisconsin - 1.76%
Nebraska - 1.70%
Illinois - 1.73%
Connecticut - 1.63%
Michigan - 1.62%
Vermont - 1.59%
North Dakota - 1.42%

then, move to one of these:

Louisiana - 0.18%
Hawaii - 0.26%
Alabama - 0.33%
Delaware - 0.43%
West Virginia - 0.49%
South Carolina - 0.50%
Arkansas - 0.52%
Mississippi - 0.52%
New Mexico - 0.55%
Wyoming - 0.58%


25 posted on 07/30/2013 12:51:46 PM PDT by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: MrB
Most urban areas have defacto feudalism already. The "crown" permits the "serfs" to live on the land and maintains them in exchange for their votes.

They would certainly like to expand that system to "benefit" all of us.

26 posted on 07/30/2013 12:58:43 PM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: C210N
Thanks for the response! I was pretty sure they ALL rent you your property.

It seemed to be a state-by-state domino effect thingee.

Looks like there are some locales where you can get a lighter touch from The Heavy Hand...

27 posted on 07/30/2013 1:03:13 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: jboot

States use property taxes because, unless in their individual states, there is no prohibition against it. Second, it is a tax against wealth, in the form of real property. Texas used to tax “cash on hand”, “bank stock”, “personal property”(furniture, etc), but because no one declared it and it could not be found, it was ultimately removed from the Tax Code.

The problem is that property is not assessed evenly. For example, residential property under $500K in Texas is apprx 95% on average of value. Above $500K, it drops significantly due to a lack of information. Apartments and office buildings at about 35% of value, same with commercial land (Texas is a non-disclosure state).

Sales taxes would be more equitable as all would pay them depending on their consumption.


28 posted on 07/30/2013 1:07:13 PM PDT by rstrahan
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To: rstrahan

Taxing property when it is sold would be a good idea.

Taxing corporate properties that aren’t being used for a decade would help keep companies from buying up land to keep it out of peoples hands.


29 posted on 07/30/2013 1:09:29 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: kiryandil

“...Stealing your property after several years because of unpaid property taxes
is a VERY recent development - within the last several decades...”
-
That is just not true.

I have read many historic newspapers from the 1860’s
and the pages are filled with tax sales and auctions at the courthouse.


30 posted on 07/30/2013 1:13:05 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th (We have met the enemy and he is us.)
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To: JSDude1

check back


31 posted on 07/30/2013 1:29:03 PM PDT by snooter55 (People may doubt what you say, but they will always believe what you do)
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To: OneWingedShark

Excellent


32 posted on 07/30/2013 1:32:01 PM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: JSDude1

How much “property tax” is paid via Section 8 housing?

So you’re not only paying your share of the local school costs, but you’re paying the entire share of the freeloaders, who are driving up costs for everyone.


33 posted on 07/30/2013 1:32:41 PM PDT by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: DannyTN
Most charts I've seen have over half of property tax receipts going to schools. So privatize that and most poor kids won't get educated

Not sure I buy your premise. The USA had the highest literacy rate in the world BEFORE the government got involved in education, and had maintained that status for many years. There were many privately run schools and church schools that offered educations to those who couldn't afford it, and some of America's most creative minds came out of that system.

I'm talking Andrew Carnige, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, among others.

34 posted on 07/30/2013 1:32:43 PM PDT by Red Boots
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To: JSDude1

The property tax is progressive confiscation. They take a small amount every year. They disguise the percentage by calling it a ‘mill rate’. (1,000 mills = $1). 30 ‘mills’ is really 3%. Most people could not tell you that 30 ‘mills’ is really 3%.

marxists hate private property. They can’t grab it all (not yet) so they take a little every year. Assuming all remains constant, at 3% in 33 years they’ll have confiscated the entire house.

How do you do away with the property tax? Get enough people to understand what is happening and contact their representatives.

I have no hope for change. Property is what the productive people have and the obamaphone people don’t have. Current government is doing all it can to take all that people have earned legitimately and give it to the obamaphone people. It’s taking it through income taxes, sales taxes, and property taxes. The obamaphone people are doing very well, without having to work, while the productive people work hard and realize nothing after taxes. The productive people have pride in themselves and would not stop being productive. The obamaphone people have no pride and are going to continue taking the handouts.

When enough of the productive people take their heads out of their a$$es, we’ll have change.


35 posted on 07/30/2013 1:34:52 PM PDT by I want the USA back (We live in a fascist dictatorship, thanks to half the public having its head up its a$$.)
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To: DannyTN
Plus I think you're making an either/or argument when there doesn't need to be one. The only choices are not: Abolish all property taxes and fund no services, educate no children, have no fire, etc; or keep the existing system, are they ?

An aside, but the country next to our heavily zoned county has no zoning, and it's interesting to drive around it. It's not totally chaotic nor are their property values abysmal, instead it seems just as well-laid out as our county, leading me to wonder if perhaps the advantages to zoning accrue mostly to those in seats of government power.

36 posted on 07/30/2013 1:38:49 PM PDT by Red Boots
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To: Red Boots
"The USA had the highest literacy rate in the world BEFORE the government got involved in education"

You mean before 1642?

"All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made "proper" education compulsory; other New England colonies followed. Similar statutes were adopted in other colonies in the 1640s and 1650s. The schools were all male, with few facilities for girls.[4] In the 18th century, "common schools," appeared; students of all ages were under the control of one teacher in one room. Although they were publicly supplied at the local (town) level, they were not free, and instead were supported by tuition or "rate bills." - Wikipedia - History of Education in the United States

37 posted on 07/30/2013 1:44:09 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: JSDude1

Stop Endorsing Private Credit


38 posted on 07/30/2013 1:47:26 PM PDT by phockthis (http://www.supremelaw.org/fedzone11/index.htm ...)
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To: C210N

Would you know Oklahoma’s? I’ve heard there property tax was low also.


39 posted on 07/30/2013 1:50:39 PM PDT by foundedonpurpose (It's time for a fundamental restoration, of our country's principles!)
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To: JSDude1
Government intervention in the housing market excludes the poor from being able to acquire housing leading to growing rates of homelessness.To reverse this phenomenon, the government needs to end property taxes,zoning laws,government building codes, the compulsory withdrawal of land from development, laws that compel home builders to deal with labor unions and thus to suffer the artificially high wage rates and inefficiencies imposed by the unions, rent control, and urban renewal.

All of these are ways in which the government causes either an increase in the cost of building and operating housing or a decrease in the existing supply of housing.The people who can least afford the higher costs imposed are, of course, the poor.

40 posted on 07/30/2013 2:00:35 PM PDT by mjp ((pro-{God, reality, reason, egoism, individualism, natural rights, limited government, capitalism}))
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To: kiryandil
Stealing your property after several years because of unpaid property taxes is a VERY recent development - within the last several decades.I don't like renting my paid-off property from the government. Do you?

Property taxes existed in the colonial times. I'm not sure what they did if you didn't pay. But it's probably more lenient now than it was back then.

The view back then is that government provided a valuable service in protecting your property. Thus it was only natural that property owners should be expected to pay for that service.

That's why I don't confuse terms and call "property taxes" by the name "rent" like you or "theft" like others. It's neither. It's a tax. Scripture says pay your taxes. It has a history in our country from the very beginning. The founders fathers were okay with it. I am too.

41 posted on 07/30/2013 2:01:54 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: JSDude1

Call it something else. Just kidding.

As far as taxation goes, property tax is about as fair as it gets. Pretty much everyone pays the same rate, it is spent fairly locally and the representation is fairly local.

Yearly tax too high, run for local office to change it, move to a smaller place or to an area with lower rates.

It’s not like federal taxes where you have effectively no representation, the money is shipped out of your state and tax rates vary greatly.


42 posted on 07/30/2013 2:05:20 PM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: Red Boots
"Plus I think you're making an either/or argument when there doesn't need to be one. The only choices are not: Abolish all property taxes and fund no services, educate no children, have no fire, etc; or keep the existing system, are they ?"

No but if you are going to have those services, you need to fund them somehow. Property taxes were around since the start of the country and the founding fathers were okay with them. It makes sense to me that property owners in an area would pay a fair share of the costs of providing certain services.

It makes sense that if the services are directly related to owning property, or even somewhat indirectly related, or related to developing that community, that a property tax would be a reasonable way of funding those services.

An aside, but the country next to our heavily zoned county has no zoning, and it's interesting to drive around it. It's not totally chaotic nor are their property values abysmal, instead it seems just as well-laid out as our county, leading me to wonder if perhaps the advantages to zoning accrue mostly to those in seats of government power.

Well I'm aware of two counties near me, that have less zoning and they are much poorer counties. Whereas the higher zoning areas like Franklin, TN are the fastest growing areas of the state.

There are a core set of building codes here that are state wide. But local communities can add on.

I think the thing you notice in the poorer counties is more land per house. And you don't see a lot of businesses in residential land, because it's almost all residential or farmland.

43 posted on 07/30/2013 2:13:10 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: JSDude1

If you end property taxes as such, speculators will move in and buy up private property, driving homeowners out.

So to start with, property taxes should only be ended under strict criteria: the property must have your primary home, and you must live there. It is limited in size and amenities, and must be non-commercial. That is, no home based businesses.

Property tax abatement also goes hand in glove with inheritance tax abatement, or else you pay no property tax, but for you to give the land to your children costs 100% of its value. That is, as soon as Democrats are in power.

Such tax abatement must be created with a 2/3rds vote needed for ending it, or it will be killed quickly.


44 posted on 07/30/2013 2:28:43 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Be Brave! Fear is just the opposite of Nar!)
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To: JSDude1

Well, every July 4th we are supposed to remember a singular event which ended oppressive taxes and other injustices. Any event so hallowed ever since ought to provide an inspiration for the solution of our present distress.


45 posted on 07/30/2013 2:28:43 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: Macoozie
The one caveat: If you get paid/maintained/receive taxpayer dollars, you can’t vote.

Nice to see that you don't want members of the armed forces or the post-office to vote (chosen because both are Constitutional set-up): all their salaries come from taxpayers.

46 posted on 07/30/2013 2:29:31 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: JSDude1

Only property owners should be allowed to vote. This would change things.


47 posted on 07/30/2013 4:39:18 PM PDT by vetvetdoug
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To: DannyTN; Repeal The 17th
Property taxes existed in the colonial times. I'm not sure what they did if you didn't pay. But it's probably more lenient now than it was back then.

In my state, they couldn't touch your property for unpaid taxes until you died. They changed that 15 years ago.

Now, it's 3 years, and they take it.

It's rent.

Wear your chains lightly, both of you.

48 posted on 07/30/2013 4:56:47 PM PDT by kiryandil (turning Americans into felons, one obnoxious drunk at a time (Zero Tolerance!!!))
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To: kiryandil

It is sort of like sharecropping. Sort of like feudalism. Okay... a LOT like feudalism!


49 posted on 07/30/2013 4:57:58 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: JSDude1

There should NEVER be taxes on the possession of property. That’s COMMUNISM!!!


50 posted on 07/30/2013 5:10:50 PM PDT by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off. -786 +969)
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