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Ukraine Deeply Divided over World War II Legacy
AP via Real Clear History ^ | 08/01/2013 | staff

Posted on 08/03/2013 10:55:04 AM PDT by Kid Shelleen

Ukrainians dressed in Nazi SS uniform trudge through trenches and fire model rifles in a reconstruction of a key battle against the Soviets during World War II. An Orthodox priest leads a ceremony for fallen soldiers of the Nazi unit, sprinkling his blessing over several men sporting swastikas who lower a coffin in a ritual reburial.

-snip-

More than 20 years since gaining independence from the Soviet Union, Ukraine remains painfully divided over the legacy of World War II and the actions of Ukrainian nationalist fighters, who are honored as heroes by some and condemned as traitors by others. Some of those fighters served under or cooperated with the Nazis, seeing a chance to overthrow the Soviet regime, while others fought both the Red Army and the Nazis.

(Excerpt) Read more at realclear.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: russia; stalinslegacy; ukraine; ussr

1 posted on 08/03/2013 10:55:04 AM PDT by Kid Shelleen
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To: Kid Shelleen

Any body who would hold truck with the arabs....


2 posted on 08/03/2013 10:58:35 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Kid Shelleen

What a terrible dilemma thee people faced; defend your country with your oppressors (Russian Communists) who slaughtered millions of your own people just a few years before, or work with the Nazis, your “liberators” (well, for at least until the Russians were defeated and then, being Slavs, the Ukrainians would be “second class” slaves to the Nazis). Talking about choosing between two evils to survive...no wonder to this day there is issues on both sides. Bummer.


3 posted on 08/03/2013 11:03:30 AM PDT by john drake
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To: john drake

A Romanian neighbor said the same thing of their country. Sided with the Nazi’s first - then with the Soviets when it looked like they would be the winner. But the Soviets didn’t let them forget that they had first sided with Hitler. (I THINK that is how it went - or vise-versa).


4 posted on 08/03/2013 11:08:01 AM PDT by 21twelve ("We've got the guns, and we got the numbers" adapted and revised from Jim M.)
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To: john drake

I had a great uncle that was in the Russian army in WWII. Afterwards he had problems immigrating to this country.


5 posted on 08/03/2013 11:12:05 AM PDT by meatloaf
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To: john drake

If the Germans had been smart, and not treated the Ukrainians as terribly as the Soviets, they would have had millions of volunteers and workers and not had to waste so many resources on occupation of the Ukraine. Might have actually tipped the balance in their favor.


6 posted on 08/03/2013 11:14:03 AM PDT by Kozak ("Send them back your fierce defiance! Stamp upon the cursed alliance! To arms, to arms.....")
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To: Kid Shelleen
I've known Ukrainians whose families fought with the communists, and others whose families sided with the German national socialists. I predict another few generations will have to pass before Ukrainians will be able to look back dispassionately.

There's naught new in any of that: the Ukraine, some of the richest agricultural land in the world, has been invaded from all directions and fought over for millennia.

7 posted on 08/03/2013 11:18:47 AM PDT by Standing Wolf
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To: Kozak
If the Germans had been smart, and not treated the Ukrainians as terribly as the Soviets, they would have had millions of volunteers and workers and not had to waste so many resources on occupation of the Ukraine. Might have actually tipped the balance in their favor.

You're right, Kozak, and if they'd been cunning as well as smart, they'd have put off trying to invade the Soviet Union until they'd solidified their grip on Western Europe and neutralized the English.

Blind hatred never sees very far ahead.

8 posted on 08/03/2013 11:22:32 AM PDT by Standing Wolf
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To: john drake

Yeah, ‘can’t help but feel sorry for the Ukrainians. Rock and a hard place.


9 posted on 08/03/2013 11:39:45 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

The Germans were welcomed as liberators — at first. Germany recruited Waffen SS in the areas where they’d kicked out the Soviet occupiers, and the armies on both sides weren’t fussy about collateral damage during the war years, covering a lot of territory.


10 posted on 08/03/2013 11:45:18 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: Standing Wolf

Well said. Hitler directed the war like a bus driver makes all his stops on time.


11 posted on 08/03/2013 11:46:20 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: 21twelve
A Romanian neighbor said the same thing of their country. Sided with the Nazi’s first...

Those were difficult, terrible times for the small nations of eastern Europe. One thing they had to keep in mind was the fate of Yugoslavia.

When, in early 1941, the Yugoslavs rejected an alliance with Hitler, Yugoslavia was invaded and occupied.

So to keep at least some independence, many eastern European leaders made a deal with the devil, so to speak.

12 posted on 08/03/2013 11:48:03 AM PDT by Leaning Right
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To: Kid Shelleen

bookmark


13 posted on 08/03/2013 12:06:17 PM PDT by DFG ("Dumb, Dependent, and Democrat is no way to go through life" - Louie Gohmert (R-TX))
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To: Kid Shelleen

Seems FR’s don’t know much about WWII. Germans armed and unformed a million man Russian army. Towards the end of WWII they fought the SS with German arms freeing Prague. The Czechs turned them over to the Russians after thanking them. They were all killed


14 posted on 08/03/2013 12:08:29 PM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause.Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: mosesdapoet

The so-called Vlasovites. Also the Cossacks of Von Pannwitz. Some made it to the West - New Jersey.


15 posted on 08/03/2013 12:26:18 PM PDT by Argus
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To: mosesdapoet
Germans armed and unformed a million man Russian army.

Most of them were POWs.

Death was the alternative for many of them.

16 posted on 08/03/2013 12:26:20 PM PDT by x
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To: 21twelve

During the Revolution (the Russian one), my family was made up of anarchists. When the Bolsheviks looked like they were winning, they fought with the Mensheviks. When it looked like the Mensheviks were winning, they fought with the Bolsheviks.


17 posted on 08/03/2013 12:36:27 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: Kid Shelleen
There are many wars throughout history in which decent,reasonable,intelligent people would want *both* sides to lose.Hitler vs Stalin is one of the best examples of such a war...best in recent history at least.Sadly,only *one* side lost.
18 posted on 08/03/2013 12:37:41 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (If Obama Had A City It Would Look Like Detroit.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Stalin was evil and would kill you.

Hitler was evil and would kill you.

So which side were the good guys on? The average Soviet soldier didn’t really start fighting until Hitler had made it apparent that he intended to kill them all either way. The odds that Stalin would kill them started looking more acceptable.

After the news arrived back (via non-official reliable sources) that most everyone who had surrendered in the summer of 1941 was dead and civilians were being liquidated, the Russians accepted death and began to take a real stand.


19 posted on 08/03/2013 12:40:47 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: john drake

“What a terrible dilemma thee people faced; defend your country with your oppressors (Russian Communists) who slaughtered millions of your own people just a few years before, or work with the Nazis, your “liberators” (well, for at least until the Russians were defeated and then, being Slavs, the Ukrainians would be “second class” slaves to the Nazis). Talking about choosing between two evils to survive...no wonder to this day there is issues on both sides.”

Anyone who fought the Bolsheviks under any flag was choosing the lesser of two evils; the numbers bear out their decision.


20 posted on 08/03/2013 12:55:40 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Kozak

“If the Germans had been smart, and not treated the Ukrainians as terribly as the Soviets, they would have had millions of volunteers and workers and not had to waste so many resources on occupation of the Ukraine.”

After the collapse of the USSR they admitted that they had infiltrated saboteurs/snipers behind German lines to successfully provoke retribution against the Ukrainians by the Germans (to drive them apart).


21 posted on 08/03/2013 12:57:56 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: SampleMan

“So which side were the good guys on?”

Eastern Europeans liked to say that neither was good, but one was worse (Stalin). The casualties of 1941 followed on the heels of the Soviet Katyn massacre; this actually helped rally many who might have remained neutral to fear the Soviets much more than they feared Nazism.

The legacy of the Nazis will always include the evil they did, and should also note that nobody had ever unified so much of Europe against a common enemy before.


22 posted on 08/03/2013 1:00:57 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: 21twelve

A lot of Romanians and Italians fought & died for the Axis in Stalingrad. Both changed sides at the end of the war, but Italy was spared the Communist hell Romania (and most of eastern Europe) endured for the next 45 years.


23 posted on 08/03/2013 1:02:58 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Standing Wolf

“You’re right, Kozak, and if they’d been cunning as well as smart, they’d have put off trying to invade the Soviet Union until they’d solidified their grip on Western Europe and neutralized the English.”

Many people who take that view forget that in 1917 Russia surrendered to the Central Powers in WWI. War can be fought on 2 fronts (we did it in WWII), and if not for propaganda/yellow journalism the Central Powers would have won WWI in 1917. Russia surrendered, French troops were mutinying, Austria-Hungary had Italy beaten, and England was alone.


24 posted on 08/03/2013 1:06:14 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Kozak
If the Germans had been smart, and not treated the Ukrainians as terribly as the Soviets, they would have had millions of volunteers and workers and not had to waste so many resources on occupation of the Ukraine.

Exactly. Many Ukrainians first looked at the Nazis as liberators. The Nazis let them know rather quickly that this would not be the case.

25 posted on 08/03/2013 1:09:50 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: kearnyirish2

If you were a Russian, Stalin was very bad, but Hitler was worse. Yet, it took Hitler proving it, to make the typical Russian a true believer.

Katin (and other Soviet atrocities) occurred before Hitler invaded those areas, thus it set a tone going forward in regard to the Soviets. That said, Hitler immediately went to work enslaving the entire populations of those lands, forcing the women into brothels, and exterminating certain elements altogether.

A very, very bad time to be in Eastern Europe.


26 posted on 08/03/2013 1:26:25 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan

Stalin knew many Russians preferred Hitler to him, so he went about a campaign of terror to force their loyalty. Katyn occurred when Hitler took western Poland and Stalin took eastern Poland.

It was a miserable time for eastern Europe; the fortunate ones in 1945 ended up of west of the line Stalin and Roosevelt drew between communism and relative freedom.


27 posted on 08/03/2013 1:30:44 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Kid Shelleen

No doubt literally NO ONE in all of Russia knows what really happened in WWII..
The Russians have been brain washed since toddlers for a hundred years..

Probably no one remains that WANTS TO KNOW either..
Russians murdered more of their OWN people in WWII and before than they did anybody else..
A corrupt and murderous people the Russians..

Thr Russians and Chinese people have never known FREEDOM.. EVER..
Still today they are ruled by depots.. they know of no other way..


28 posted on 08/03/2013 1:50:57 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
"The Russians and Chinese people have never known FREEDOM.. EVER..

Still today they are ruled by depots.. they know of no other way.."

While true of China, there was an all too brief time when Russia, under its first democratically elected President Boris Yeltsen (first President of the Russian Federation, serving from 1991 to 1999.) knew the true meaning of freedom and sought to establish it within Russia after the fall of Communism.

When the Russian communists tried to overthrow the free, democratically elected government in October of 1993 and reestablish communist rule, President Boris Yeltsen stood tall, called out the army who sided with President Yeltsen against the "Supreme Soviet" (A remarkable feat given the fact that the army had been aligned with, and loyal to the "Supreme Soviet" for nearly 70 years!) and had them besiege the Russian White House and fire on the communist rebels who had barricaded themselves within. The coup was quenched after the White House was stormed. The shelling and subsequent retaking of the White House resulted in the deaths of 187 rebels within the White House and Democracy was temporarily reestablished.

In spite of President Yeltsen's personal faults, and political shortcomings he sought to do everything within his power to establish Democracy and freedom within post-Soviet Russia.

Sadly, his vision for a Democratic Russian Federation was thwarted for many reasons beyond his control. 70 years of unparalleled and whimsical death and banishment to Siberia and other "camps" at the hands of your own government, government oppression, fear of your neighbor and fear of your own family, corruption permeating every level of society and "Soviet Socialist control" and enslavement to "the state" that had been systematically engrained within the masses for generations is a hard thing to change. Coupled with that, you had a cadre of committed Soviet Socialists who had just changed their uniforms for business suits and called themselves "democrats" who were and are opposed to Democracy within Russia doing everything within their power to subvert Democracy.

The vision died and the time past on December 31, 1999 when President Yeltsin surprisingly announced his resignation, leaving the presidency in the hands of then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin (former head of the KGB) who was his chosen successor.

29 posted on 08/03/2013 4:03:57 PM PDT by Jmouse007 (Deliver us from this evil, in Jesus name, amen.)
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To: Jmouse007

>>>>While true of China, there was an all too brief time when Russia, under its first democratically elected President Boris Yeltsen (first President of the Russian Federation, serving from 1991 to 1999.) knew the true meaning of freedom and sought to establish it within Russia after the fall of Communism.

When the Russian communists tried to overthrow the free, democratically elected government in October of 1993 and reestablish communist rule, President Boris Yeltsen stood tall, called out the army who sided with President Yeltsen against the “Supreme Soviet” (A remarkable feat given the fact that the army had been aligned with, and loyal to the “Supreme Soviet” for nearly 70 years!) and had them besiege the Russian White House and fire on the communist rebels who had barricaded themselves within. The coup was quenched after the White House was stormed. The shelling and subsequent retaking of the White House resulted in the deaths of 187 rebels within the White House and Democracy was temporarily reestablished.

In spite of President Yeltsen’s personal faults, and political shortcomings he sought to do everything within his power to establish Democracy and freedom within post-Soviet Russia.<<<<

Yeltsin is a very poor example of libertarian to say the least.
In terms of rule of law and some freedoms his regime was a devolution comparing to late Soviet period in the 1980s.


30 posted on 08/04/2013 10:19:45 PM PDT by cunning_fish
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