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Crisis of Conscience: Anti-Semite Learns He's a Jew
CBN ^ | August 07, 2013 | Dale Hurd

Posted on 08/07/2013 6:41:24 PM PDT by xzins

BUDAPEST, Hungary -- What do you do when you learn you are not the person you thought you were, when you learn you are the very thing you hated?

It was a question Csanad Szegedi was confronted with -- one that led to a remarkable transformation.

Szegedi was once a rising star in Hungary's third largest and most controversial political parties, Jobbik. Jobbik has been labeled fascist and anti-Semitic.

Its leader once asked for a list of all the Jews in Hungarian government. And Szegedi, still in his 20s, was on a trajectory to lead the party someday.

"I joined Jobbik in 2003, when the party foundations were being built," he told CBN News. "I was a member for 9 years. I was vice president for 6 years and I have served in the European parliament since 2009."

Szegedi was also branded an anti-Semite, although he told CBN News that when he joined Jobbik, "I was kind of indifferent toward Jews."

"I didn't care about Jews," he said. "I didn't care about the Holocaust. I didn't consider the Holocaust as a tragedy for the Hungarian people."

Szegedi's Damascus Road

But still, Szegedi was a leader in a major anti-Semitic party, and his public statements showed that, at the very least, he didn't like Jews and was suspicious of them.

But that would all change when Szegedi learned something about himself that would turn his world upside down: Szegedi discovered he was a Jew.

When rumors of his Jewish ancestry started swirling on the Internet, Szegedi went to talk to his 94-year-old grandmother, who he never knew was Jewish.

"She opened up and she talked about her life and how she was sent to Auschwitz and how our family was annihilated," he recalled. "I was shocked. First of all because I realized the Holocaust really happened."

At first, Szegedi tried to hide his Jewishness and act like nothing had happened. But he realized he couldn't stay in Jobbik.

"It started such a crisis in my consciousness," he told CBN News. "I realized I can't take part in any organization that has anything to do with anti-Semitism. And after my Jewish origins were disclosed, they really didn't want to see me in the party anymore."

A Spiritual 'Leper'

So what do you do when you discover you are one of the very things you hated? Szegedi decided to change.

He contacted local Rabbi Schlomo Koves, who first thought it was a joke.

"When I first met with Csanad, I had very, very mixed feelings because on one hand I was sitting across from a member of the Jobbik party, which has extreme anti-Semitic views," Rabbi Koves told CBN News.

"But on the other hand, I was sitting across from a broken person who has realized what he has done and has come to a situation where he figured he had to change but he didn't know how to change," he said.

Szegedi started attending synagogue and jokes that he was treated by some members "like a leper."

"It was very interesting to see how other people viewed it and some stepped back," Rabbi Koves said. "They were shocked."

But Szegedi started taking classes at the synagogue, learning Hebrew and the meaning of kosher and Shabbat. He said his life has completely changed.

"It's changed everything. It's like being re-born, and the changes in my life are still happening," he said. "I had this set value system that I had to change completely. I had had this value system until I was 30 and I had to admit that it was all wrong and to find the will to change."

Visiting Israel

He also became a politician without a party and has continued to serve in the European parliament as an independent.

"As a politician, now I want to defend human rights for everyone," Szegedi explained. "I am aware of my responsibility and I know I will have to make it right in the future."

One of the high points of his new life was visiting Israel with his wife and visiting the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum and the Western Wall.

"When I landed in Israel, airport security asked me a lot of questions, and when the guard asked me, 'Are you a Jew?' Then for the first time in my life, I could say, 'Yes,'" Szegedi recalled.

"Just to feel like you are on the right way spiritually, and you can get closer to God," he continued. "It's a whole new feeling for me, that I am doing the right thing."

"Since then, my life has been full of incredible miracles," he said. "But I believe everyone who chooses the way of God sees miracles."


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antisemite; auschwitz; budapest; csanadszegedil; europeanunion; holocaust; hungary; israel; jew; jobbik; schlomokoves; theholocaust
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But still, Szegedi was a leader in a major anti-Semitic party, and his public statements showed that, at the very least, he didn't like Jews and was suspicious of them.

But that would all change when Szegedi learned something about himself that would turn his world upside down: Szegedi discovered he was a Jew.

When rumors of his Jewish ancestry started swirling on the Internet, Szegedi went to talk to his 94-year-old grandmother, who he never knew was Jewish.

"She opened up and she talked about her life and how she was sent to Auschwitz and how our family was annihilated," he recalled. "I was shocked. First of all because I realized the Holocaust really happened."

1 posted on 08/07/2013 6:41:25 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins

Wasn’t Hitler part Jewish?

What is it with Europeans? They have muslims slitting their throats and creating infidel no-go zones and they hate some peaceful Jews baking knishes...


2 posted on 08/07/2013 6:46:07 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: xzins

Parallel to Paul the Apostle?


3 posted on 08/07/2013 6:47:33 PM PDT by NonValueAdded ("When there is no penalty for failure, failures proliferate." George F. Will)
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To: xzins

Better get out there and hang that monkey right now!

LOL


4 posted on 08/07/2013 6:47:38 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: 2banana

I don’t know if the Hitler thing is true, folk legend, or carefully planted propaganda by the allies during WWII.

I don’t know how to find out, either.


5 posted on 08/07/2013 6:48:07 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: 2banana

Oh but you don’t understand. It’s Israel that has so mistreated these people, that they have to lash out.

Innocent terrorists. Evil Jews...

/s mindset


6 posted on 08/07/2013 6:49:12 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Just wondering...isn’t George Soros an Hungarian Jew from the concentration camps who turned on his people?

He could be responsible for the deaths of this guy’s family.


7 posted on 08/07/2013 6:49:55 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

Is it anything like Chapells “Black , White Supremicist” ?


8 posted on 08/07/2013 6:52:18 PM PDT by Figment
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To: 2banana
Many of Hitler's top lieutenants were almost certainly Jewish. Hitler himself might be a Rothschild, which would make him a Hebrew.
9 posted on 08/07/2013 6:52:20 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I aim to raise a million plus for Gov. Palin. What'll you do?.)
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To: xzins

A real life Clayton Bigsby!


10 posted on 08/07/2013 6:52:50 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: DoughtyOne

I heard of spanking the monkey but I never heard of hanging the monkey.


11 posted on 08/07/2013 6:52:55 PM PDT by sport
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To: DoughtyOne

Yep. Obviously a spy.


12 posted on 08/07/2013 6:56:17 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
It had been my take that he did this.  There are some concerns out there that argue differently with some reasonable sounding rebuttles.  I'm more or less up in the air on it right now.

Soros has enough dough to be able to spin this just about any way he likes.  I don't know the real truth of the matter.  As I said up front, it had been my take he was involved in this.

Was he old enough.  Was he the real person doing things?  Was he sympathetic to it if not actually doing it himself?

Can't say for absolute sure.


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13 posted on 08/07/2013 6:59:01 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: sport

Anti Semites are known to call Jews monkeys.

Thus the reference to him hurriedly hanging himself, since he’s Jewish.


14 posted on 08/07/2013 7:03:55 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: xzins

I was referencing him hanging himself, since anti-Semites often refer to Jews as monkeys.


15 posted on 08/07/2013 7:06:16 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: xzins
What do you do when you learn you are not the person you thought you were, when you learn you are the very thing you hated?

Wasn't this a Twilight Zone episode?

16 posted on 08/07/2013 7:11:14 PM PDT by vbmoneyspender
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To: DoughtyOne

O.K. I did not know that.


17 posted on 08/07/2013 7:12:53 PM PDT by sport
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To: xzins

His nephew, one Patrick Stuart-Huston (formerly Patrick Hitler) ate at a restaurant, and left behind his napkin. A person interested in such things took up the napkin and had the DNA analyzed. It had Jewish and Berber markers in the DNA.

Hitler’s father was the son of Maria Schickelgruber, who had worked as a domestic for the family of Leopold Frankenburger, a Jew. It was suggested that Hitler was the natural son of Leopold Frankenburger.

Hitler’s commander in WWI was a Jew. He survived WWII and asserted that Hitler had only one testicle.

Hitler had SS#1. His driver/bodyguard and friend Emil Maurice had SS#2. Himmler had #5.

Himmler’s investigations found that Maurice was Jewish. Hitler refused to drum him out of the SS, perhaps because Hitler wanted at least one friend in the world, perhaps because he knew that Himmler would use it as a precedent.


18 posted on 08/07/2013 7:13:13 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: NonValueAdded

Note however that Paul the Apostle spent considerable effort to teach his non-Jewish followers to respect Jews and their faith practices, see especially Romans 9 thru 11 inclusive (which include the information that God has never abandoned His Jewish People, notwithstanding all their historical shortcomings, and that all of them will be saved.

How much a misunderstanding or misreading of Paul may have contributed to anti- Semitism in years past, is discussable, but it really doesn’t appear very accurate to lay the blame on Paul himself.


19 posted on 08/07/2013 7:13:30 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: xzins; a fool in paradise

Imagine if each one of us learned that he is an Indonesian Kenyan without a birth certificate!


20 posted on 08/07/2013 7:14:23 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: DoughtyOne

I was referencing the old English story of a French ship wreck during Napoleanic times and the residents hanging the powder monkey who might have survived the wreck. The song is about hanging the monkey because he’s a spy.


21 posted on 08/07/2013 7:14:39 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Revolting cat!

Easy one for me...I’d go to Harvard Law. :>)


22 posted on 08/07/2013 7:15:32 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

Soros was put out for adoption by his Jewish parents to protect him from the anti-Semitic local government. He was perhaps 15 when he was traveling with his adopted father foreclosing on Jews.


23 posted on 08/07/2013 7:17:26 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: xzins

Powder monkeys were boys who would run down the stairs pick up a charge of powder from the hold and carry it up to the guns. Small boys were preferred as they could more easily pass each other in the stairs.

Because of flash and burning embers, it was not permitted to store many charges near the guns.

there were also shot monkeys, but because of the inert nature of shot, more were permitted to be stored by the guns. Some were made of brass, and when it got cold the brass would contract more than the steel shot. When it was really cold the cannon balls could fall off the shrunken monkey, it then being cold enough to freeze the [cannon] balls off a brass monkey.


24 posted on 08/07/2013 7:22:25 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: donmeaker

Good info, thanks.

The song is about hanging a monkey, but the suspicion is that it’s about hanging one of the powder monkey boys.


25 posted on 08/07/2013 7:25:20 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

I don’t get it.

He was labeled anti-Semitic, and therefore HE WAS...? MANY people are labeled anti-Semitic, very many, and often for reasons that have NOTHING to do with Judaism.

I have gone to very few political rallies, but I did once protest the arrival of Bill Clinton in San Francisco, and I was called a nazi and anti-semite very many times —simply because I was not a fan of Bill Clinton.

Further, this states that his thinking about Jews changed BECAUSE he discovered his grandmother was Jewish:

I also don’t understand this —this is close to showing a triumph of narrow tribalism and Balkanization. We should instead read something like, “But then I joined a sports team full of GREAT guys, who were generous and fair to all, and after that I realized that my previous reservations about Jews were silly...”

Let’s say someone asked to be your friend “I want to be your friend BECAUSE you are an Eskimo”.

Eskimos are fine, but my point is shouldn’t something other than MEMBERSHIP drive people...?


26 posted on 08/07/2013 7:26:46 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: donmeaker

Story is also that Soros applied for help from a Jewish community charity in London after the war.
Most of the charities then were in the practice of checking with the British government to ascertain eligibility for any public benefits. This helped the charities make sure that their (very limited, especially then) resources went to the most needy, and that everybody who applied for help got it (from either source).
Soros allegedly did not disclose he was receiving public benefits, or else there was something else that the charity felt was wrong with his application (I heard it was that he didn’t reveal the monies he was getting from the public dole). However the details, his application for charity was apparently turned down, and he seemed to carry a grudge about it. If this is even partly accurate, it would help explain his anti-British and anti-Semitic attitudes....

if anyone can confirm just what made Soros into such a hate-filled man, please share with us. (Just his having to live through Nazism, and yes, rat on his family and friends....)... that would have probably warped a lot of people in that position, especially at such an early stage in life. But all I can do is speculate ... I wish we could find out just what broke his mold... perhaps this will provide us a means of “reaching out to him”... and just think of all the good he could do in the world if he could just overcome his sociopathy


27 posted on 08/07/2013 7:27:55 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: sport

From the radio Islam web site.

LINK to PHOTO / note address

Radio Islam Org

Just so you can see what ilk puts out this stuff.

West Bank and Gaza papers have pumped out this filth and worse over time.

28 posted on 08/07/2013 7:32:14 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: xzins

I hadn’t heard that before. Thanks for the mention.

You may want to look at what I posted just above to Sport.


29 posted on 08/07/2013 7:33:08 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: faithhopecharity
Was St. Paul a Jew? He says he belonged to the tribe of Benjamin. Would the term "Jew" (Ioudaios) in that period apply to any descendant of the twelve tribes of Israel (other than Samaritans) or only the descendants of the tribe of Judah? Does Ioudaios come from "Judah" or from the geographical name Judaea (which of course was earlier known as the land of Judah)?
30 posted on 08/07/2013 7:35:09 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: 2banana

No kidding!


31 posted on 08/07/2013 7:35:52 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: DoughtyOne

Odd, that take on the part of Arabs. Jewish inventiveness and technology far outstrips theirs and when considered in terms of ratio, number of Jews versus number of Islamics, it is exponentially enormous.


32 posted on 08/07/2013 7:36:19 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: faithhopecharity

“and that all of them will be saved.”

Disagree...only if they have accepted Jesus as Messiah and are born again.

Many have not, and many will not.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/will-all-jews-be-saved/


33 posted on 08/07/2013 7:41:43 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: xzins
Cartman learns that he's ginger

34 posted on 08/07/2013 7:44:56 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools - Solon, Lawmaker of Athens)
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To: goodwithagun

I thought of that skit when I saw the headline also. One of Chappelle’s finer moments.


35 posted on 08/07/2013 7:45:00 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: xzins

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

Agreed, and just in this one Jew alone. Incredibly intelligent people!


36 posted on 08/07/2013 7:45:18 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: xzins
Odd, that take on the part of Arabs. Jewish inventiveness and technology far outstrips theirs and when considered in terms of ratio, number of Jews versus number of Islamics, it is exponentially enormous.

Israel expends it's energy on being productive, and the Arabs spend too much energy being destructive.

I don't think the whole Arab world spends their time being destructive, but it's hard to deny the almost universal hatred of Jews, and for that matter the U. S.

In the old days we used to think or Russians here as potential sleepers. Today, that's more or less my concern about Arabs on U. S. soil.

I hate to think of it that way, but what we're having to do in this nation to keep us safe, causes me to view this whole thing very dimly.

37 posted on 08/07/2013 7:59:05 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This post coming to you today, from behind the Camelskin Curtain.)
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To: xzins

Not exactly. He was a preteen given to a non-Jewish family to save him. As a teenager he ended up working with the Nazis.
And though Soros is disgusting, and I wish him a slow and painful death, he is not nearly as terrible as were the Jewish leadership of Hungary, whose head was Erich Kastner, who when informed by an escapee from Auschwitz about the death camps, used the information to save their inmediate friends and family and let the Jews of Hungary go to their deaths.


38 posted on 08/07/2013 8:01:10 PM PDT by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: SJackson

Ping!


39 posted on 08/07/2013 8:15:25 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: jodyel

I realize that is a viewpoint, and it can be supported from other Biblical verses.
But it contradicts Romans 11.
The Church (RCC, plus some Protestants) have recognized and now teach this.
This also is consistent with our understanding of the nature of God (indeed, this may be the most important part of it all, that God is not a liar and that He keeps his word, etc...)

At any event, that’s what I can contribute.
Go in faith my friend...
Best regards,
fhc


40 posted on 08/07/2013 8:40:04 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: Verginius Rufus

The term Jew as we now receive it in either English or Greek forms was capable of being applied in several ways, including (roughly) meanings corresponding more to tribe, to all the 12 tribes, to the religion, to the wider culture inclusive of its religious elements, to a geographical origin, etc.
It seems quite clear in Paul that he is speaking of the Jewish people as a whole (from all tribes and those who joined them)...
... because Paul emphasizes God’s covenant (as continuing, not having been terminated or abandoned or superseded, etc....that being his key point) ... and that covenant exists (and existed then) with all the people we would call “Jews”..... not just the Jews from Judea and not just the Jews with tribal identification as Judeans, but including the Jews from the north such as Nazareth (Jesus’ community, for instance) and the Jews from the disapora of that age, such as Paul himself and such as all the Jews in the several synagogues where Paul went or visited or preached around the eastern Mediterranean... indeed his epistle to the Romans was in response to a situation he observed in those diaspora synagogues .. so Paul was certainly not limiting his teaching to just the Jews who were of the tribe of Judea, or who happened to live in the little territory around Jerusalem.... Paul was plainly speaking of the entire Jewish (as we now call it) faith tradition/belief and people were thus part of the Jewish (as we use the term) covenant.
(Jesus understood the same, as when he rejected the pagan woman’s pleas for intercession.)
Christians are “grafted onto” the Jewish people by virtue of faith in the “Jewish God” as revealed by Jesus Christ (Himself of course a practicing Jew in this world).
Christians are not merely grafted onto one tribe of the 12, but the entire People Israel and their collective understanding(s) of covenant, with its various permutations perhaps, but the entirety of the Jewish People’s ongoing, continuing covenant with the Divine.
or something like that. That’s pretty close for sure...
Best regards,
fhc


41 posted on 08/07/2013 9:16:01 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: Verginius Rufus

PS: St Paul was not only a Jew but he was very proud to be one
.. it meant a great deal to him...


42 posted on 08/07/2013 9:17:48 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: faithhopecharity

I will review Romans 11. It speaks of a “remnant of Israel,” and if you take verse 25 to mean that every single Jew who has ever lived and who ever will live will be saved, then that negates them needing salvation in this life to begin with. The Pharisees are not saved...they rejected Christ. This belief also flies in the face of everyone needing a Savior...does accepting Christ and being saved in this life apply to everyone but the Jews? No. I think your interpretation of that verse is incorrect.

However, if I understand you to be Catholic then I can see where our differences come in. I completely disagree with Roman Catholicism, and its claim to be “The Church.” The Church is the body of born-again believers in Jesus Christ worldwide, regardless of denomination. You are correct when you say: “God is not a liar” and salvation is for all, Jew and Gentile, Catholic or Protestant or Evangelical or Pentecostal or non-denominational or no denomination at all. The only requirement is to believe in Christ. All the other stuff only gets in the way of that.

So I think we will have to agree to disagree on a lot of things.

But thank you for your gracious reply.


43 posted on 08/07/2013 9:55:16 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: DoughtyOne

Looking at Islam alone should be enough to tell anyone that the Arabs are bent on the destruction of anyone they cannot bend to the will of Allah and Islam. And that extends to themselves as suicide bombers. Completely ungodly and Satanic religion...however, that is not to say that God cannot call some out of that mess to His purpose and will. Few, but there are some.

No other race/religion, especially Israel, even comes close.


44 posted on 08/07/2013 10:05:12 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

Ok.
There is still discussion of whether there are two Covenants or just one (covering or including, if you will, Catholics/Christians/Jews all). Two Covenants make, I believe, the clearer sense of Scripture as a whole. But there are theologians who understand it as being a combined or single broader Covenant, and this leaves open the possibility that “in the end, it is Jesus who saves both the Christians and Jews, whether they all realize it now or not” ... A Jew would understand his salvation as still coming from God as it is promised to him in his faith, whereas a Christian would see all salvation as being through Jesus Christ. Contradiction? No, because to a Christian Jesus is God .... (I will avoid trying to parse the Trinity here, salvation is sufficient to keep us awake this night).
The thing that does not work is to say that Jews aren’t included (one way or the other) because then Christians not only deny much of Scripture and the Christian context itself, but Christians would then be grafted onto a dead tree...leaving Christian faith in vain (while alienating it from God and His Word).
That there is a Divine complexity, yes. That there can be a Divine contradiction, no. God is not a liar. We must therefore endeavor to give effect to as much of His Word as we can grasp, and trust Him to know it is all correct .. just as Christians (of all denominations) and Jews trust Him as our Loving Creator and ultimate Salvation.
Or something like that.
Nobody has to agree with me. Indeed, it seems as if nobody ever does
so with that...
Good night and Keep Faith (and hope, and charity/love alive)
fhc


45 posted on 08/07/2013 10:10:50 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: faithhopecharity

“Nobody has to agree with me. Indeed, it seems as if nobody ever does, so with that...”

LOL

You and John Hagee agree, fhc. He does not believe the Jews need to accept Jesus to be saved and thus does not evangelize them. This is called Duel Covenant Theology, which you named in a roundabout way. :)

This particular Catholic website recognizes Duel Covenant Theology to be error. But, perhaps, they just want them to become Catholic. :)

http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/content/view/103/25/

Thanks for the replies. I enjoyed our small debate!


46 posted on 08/07/2013 10:30:02 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: faithhopecharity

That same Catholic website, btw, gets it almost right (see below) on the error of Duel Covenant Theology but blows it by being totally wrong on what Replacement Theology is.

http://carm.org/questions-replacement-theology

Perhaps that is where the Catholic view of the whole thing diverges from truth.

And nearing the end of that first article on DCT from the Catholic website I see they’ve said this: “This does not mean, however, that Jews are automatically condemned to hell if they do not explicitly and consciously accept Christ, for the Church also teaches that those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church but seek God with a sincere heart and try to do His will to the best of their ability can be saved. Nonetheless, the fullness of the means of salvation can be found only in Jesus the Messiah and in the Church He founded (CCC 846-47).”

Okay, I will leave you alone now. :)


47 posted on 08/07/2013 10:44:35 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

There are citations within RCC that agree or tend to agree with dual covenant theology, and others which argue or tend to agree with single covenant theology, it does not appear to be finally determined within RCC yet. What is determined is that Jews remain part of “the People of God” (the others being, of course, RCC believers...nothing too surprising there)....and that, as Pope Benedict put it, “the Jewish messianic expectation (hope for salvation) is not in vain...”.

John Hagee has to be one of the best preachers in world history. I can understand why some would not agree with everything he says, but he certainly brings more faith to more people than any other preacher I’ve seen since, at least, Billy Graham was active. Hagee’s son is taking on for the future it seems, too...and he’s learned a lot at his Daddy’s knee...(though I still like the old man!)

From a Church perspective, the Jews are promised a Messiah, but from a Jewish perspective that did not always mean the kind of Messiah we see, believe in, in the Christian church.
Even in Scripture it was made clear that many Jews, including within Jesus’s own circle of followers, were looking for another type of Messiah, and scholarship is rich in explaining the various meanings that were extant in the Jewish world of that place and time. What the promise to the Jews clearly includes is salvation or redemption...
(Psalm 14 and Isaiah 59 come to mind, but there are many additional verses spanning centuries). The point being, a faith in a particular Messiah or even a particular kind of Messiah as prerequisite for the promised salvation is really not a part of the deal for Jewish believers in the one true God. The Jewish Covenant is clearly (in several variants, to be sure) spelled out in Scripture and to try to force new terms into that “deal” would be most unfair of us, indeed the height of arrogance... considering that the “deal” is of Divine origin. Where Jesus Christ comes in, then, is as a pathway for non-Jews to graft onto Israel and thus share in the salvatory benefits of the Jewish Covenant (or, as we often like to say, a new Covenant.,.. but one that arises from, grows from the Jewish Covenant with God, and either way we parse it... the result is that the Christian graft fails if it kills off its source plant, the Jewish people and the Jewish covenant with its promise of salvation.

or something like that. They liked to use agricultural illustrations back then, because it was mostly an agricultural society...so most people understood such things. Graft a new shoot onto a plant, you need a healthy plant and you definitely need to keep it healthy if the graft is itself to have continued life. (Deny or kill off the host plant and you wind up with a dead graft, too.)

Blessings,
keep faith
fhc


48 posted on 08/07/2013 10:53:38 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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To: faithhopecharity

Why do you always say, “or something like that”?

Personally do not care for Hagee. I listen to Dr. Charles Stanley’s teaching ministry in Atlanta, Georgia.

Rock on, Southern Baptists!

Truthfully, if everyone just agreed that Jesus is the way and all have to come by Him and drop all the other stuff...we’d take back the world from the Muslims.

I guess we can let the Way sort it all out in the end. It is His show after all.


49 posted on 08/07/2013 11:27:39 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

I also like Charles Stanley. Good preacher. We agree. Thanks. As for the Islamic problem in the world I am worried we won’t have the will or faith to defend ourselves. Maybe God might still help us. But we will need human leadership more palatable to Him. “Or something like that”. (Sorry I just couldn’t resist). Happiness. Fhc.


50 posted on 08/07/2013 11:45:24 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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