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To: faithhopecharity

“Nobody has to agree with me. Indeed, it seems as if nobody ever does, so with that...”


You and John Hagee agree, fhc. He does not believe the Jews need to accept Jesus to be saved and thus does not evangelize them. This is called Duel Covenant Theology, which you named in a roundabout way. :)

This particular Catholic website recognizes Duel Covenant Theology to be error. But, perhaps, they just want them to become Catholic. :)

Thanks for the replies. I enjoyed our small debate!

46 posted on 08/07/2013 10:30:02 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

There are citations within RCC that agree or tend to agree with dual covenant theology, and others which argue or tend to agree with single covenant theology, it does not appear to be finally determined within RCC yet. What is determined is that Jews remain part of “the People of God” (the others being, of course, RCC believers...nothing too surprising there)....and that, as Pope Benedict put it, “the Jewish messianic expectation (hope for salvation) is not in vain...”.

John Hagee has to be one of the best preachers in world history. I can understand why some would not agree with everything he says, but he certainly brings more faith to more people than any other preacher I’ve seen since, at least, Billy Graham was active. Hagee’s son is taking on for the future it seems, too...and he’s learned a lot at his Daddy’s knee...(though I still like the old man!)

From a Church perspective, the Jews are promised a Messiah, but from a Jewish perspective that did not always mean the kind of Messiah we see, believe in, in the Christian church.
Even in Scripture it was made clear that many Jews, including within Jesus’s own circle of followers, were looking for another type of Messiah, and scholarship is rich in explaining the various meanings that were extant in the Jewish world of that place and time. What the promise to the Jews clearly includes is salvation or redemption...
(Psalm 14 and Isaiah 59 come to mind, but there are many additional verses spanning centuries). The point being, a faith in a particular Messiah or even a particular kind of Messiah as prerequisite for the promised salvation is really not a part of the deal for Jewish believers in the one true God. The Jewish Covenant is clearly (in several variants, to be sure) spelled out in Scripture and to try to force new terms into that “deal” would be most unfair of us, indeed the height of arrogance... considering that the “deal” is of Divine origin. Where Jesus Christ comes in, then, is as a pathway for non-Jews to graft onto Israel and thus share in the salvatory benefits of the Jewish Covenant (or, as we often like to say, a new Covenant.,.. but one that arises from, grows from the Jewish Covenant with God, and either way we parse it... the result is that the Christian graft fails if it kills off its source plant, the Jewish people and the Jewish covenant with its promise of salvation.

or something like that. They liked to use agricultural illustrations back then, because it was mostly an agricultural most people understood such things. Graft a new shoot onto a plant, you need a healthy plant and you definitely need to keep it healthy if the graft is itself to have continued life. (Deny or kill off the host plant and you wind up with a dead graft, too.)

keep faith

48 posted on 08/07/2013 10:53:38 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (E)
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