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BREAKING: FAA: UPS jet crashes in Birmingham, Ala.
CBS 12 News ^ | August 14, 2013 | Michele Wright

Posted on 08/14/2013 4:26:40 AM PDT by The Working Man

Edited on 08/14/2013 5:40:11 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

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To: machogirl
The Tower is 1 and 1/2 to 1 and 3/4 miles away from the crash site based on the Fox News witness,
and if the Airbus 300 crashed 1/2 away from the airport, then it crashed in the clear-zone, before the under-run to Runway 24.
If my memory serves me correctly that would be real close to Interstate 59, exit 132 or 133.
It would have been unlikely that the Tower Controllers heard what the witnesses heard because of the distance from the crash and the insulated windows and the control tower's location.
101 posted on 08/14/2013 10:30:10 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

Thanks for the analysis. :)


102 posted on 08/14/2013 10:32:47 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: moovova

“The recent crash of the A300, caused by an explosion in a fuel tank...”

Center fuel tank, to be exact.


103 posted on 08/14/2013 10:32:52 AM PDT by MRadtke (Light a candle or curse the darkness?)
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To: The Working Man

RIP.


104 posted on 08/14/2013 10:33:17 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: Yosemitest

105 posted on 08/14/2013 10:35:02 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

Wow, the plane clipped trees and missed this couple’s house by feet.

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2013/08/ups_flight_1354_missed_birming.html


106 posted on 08/14/2013 10:35:58 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: MRadtke
I assume your source is TWA Flight 800 crash caused by overheated fuel tank vapors, not bomb or missile: officials ?
107 posted on 08/14/2013 10:38:06 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: machogirl

Power lines might explain one boom.


108 posted on 08/14/2013 10:41:35 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: machogirl
Thanks.
The location of "the intersection of Tarrant Huffman Road and Treadwell Road" is about 1 and 1/4 mile final to RWY 18,
so either the pilot was lining up on the 7,000 ft runway due to parking location
or was on a visual approach on a base-to-dogleg turn to final to RWY 24.
Very interesting, and revealing.
109 posted on 08/14/2013 10:48:13 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

welcome, thanks for the insight on that too


110 posted on 08/14/2013 10:56:39 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: machogirl
Heres KBHM current NOTAMS.
Here's the download to the RNAV (GPS) RWY 18 approach plate.
Here's the download to the LOC RWY 18 approach plate.
Here's the Runway data.
111 posted on 08/14/2013 11:03:14 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

Does it makes sense (i have no clue), that a big cargo plane like that would use the short (by 5000 ft runway?)

That looks like they were shooting for the shorter runway.

I wonder when the first bits will come out about the communication between Birmingham Tower and the plane?


112 posted on 08/14/2013 11:08:27 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: Yosemitest

I’m lost. Something either catastrophic happened, or for whatever reason, they had no idea exactly where they were with respect to the runway. (i know next to nothing and haven’t flown on a plane in 30 years)


113 posted on 08/14/2013 11:10:43 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: machogirl
I found an interesting NOTAM. If I read this correctly, Runway 18/36 has been closed since Aug 03, 2012.
Does anyone knows anything about this or can anyone verify this?
114 posted on 08/14/2013 11:13:06 AM PDT by Yosemitest
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To: machogirl

according to reuters (quoting spokesperson for mayor), no distress calls were made to the tower.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-crash-ups-urgent-idUSBRE97D0JW20130814


115 posted on 08/14/2013 11:13:22 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: machogirl
The Airbus 300 is capable of landing on a 7,000 ft runway and it's no big deal, but if I read the NOTAMS correctly that runway was CLOSED on the 3rd of August and hasn't been opened since.
Now it would be normal for that runway to be closed AFTER the crash.
116 posted on 08/14/2013 11:15:57 AM PDT by Yosemitest
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To: Yosemitest

I saw something about it being closed.

If they made no distress calls, what the heck? Then I’m thinking they didn’t know where they were. Was this the same crew that flies regularly from, to KY, and back? If it was, what the heck?

Was the flightaware data correct about those last few minutes in which there were some HUGE drops in altitude? If so (data correct), weird, and why would that not be troubling to the pilots/tower?

Why would they lose lift while landing? Instrument error or pilot error or ?

Very sad.


117 posted on 08/14/2013 11:17:31 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: Yosemitest

Strange, just sad and strange. The angle of the debris field and the relatively intact cabin/front of the plane (from pics) looks strange too. Almost like the SF crash.


118 posted on 08/14/2013 11:19:53 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: machogirl
Most crashes are "catastrophic", but it's quite normal for an aircraft on a visual approach with an experienced pilot, to turn a dogleg to final that tight to the runway.
A less experienced pilot might turn it further out.
But you must consider obstacles in the area, such as radio towers, mountains, and other obstacles.
119 posted on 08/14/2013 11:21:25 AM PDT by Yosemitest
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To: Yosemitest

thanks


120 posted on 08/14/2013 11:23:44 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: machogirl
I think you're way off target.
When you're upo to you @ss in electrical problems (think lightening strike and both engines flamed out)
and you're trying to restart the engines before you smack the ground,
a radio call is the least of your concerns.

I didn't see anything abnormal about the altitude data for the Airbus 300, except that it stops at 1,500 feet MSL and the Birmingham Airport is at 650 feet MSL.
There's 850 feet of data missing.
Now, the question might lead to "Did the pilot RESET the aircraft Altimeter to Birmingham's LOCAL ALTIMETER SETTING when he was handed off from Atlanta Center to Birmingham Approach Control ?
Did the pilot report the current Birmingham ATIS Code and fail to RESET his Altimeter ?
But the Birmingham METAR reports the Altimeter at 29.99 at the time of the crash.
Since Center runs all traffic on a standard day Altimeter of 29.92, that's a difference of 700 feet, and a pilot can have an Altimeter difference of 250 feet without correction.
Normally a noticed difference of 75 feet from the field elevation when the aircraft is parked on the airport would be reported by the pilot.
But there could have been an uncorrected altimeter that needed replacing, or failure to change the altimeter setting to the Birmingham airport setting.
121 posted on 08/14/2013 11:41:38 AM PDT by Yosemitest
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To: Yosemitest

there is a reason i don’t work for the ntsb.
thanks for the analysis so my brain doesn’t go way off track.

so sad.

i have a kid working on boeing stuff. since i’m not an electrical engineer, but i was trained in another engineering discipline, i asked him last year about the redundancy in the systems (hoping it’s redunant by a factor of 2 or 3, i was thinking of the souix city crash). he says it is, but darn, if it’s all controlled by computers and the electronics fry, and there is no safety net of altitude?


122 posted on 08/14/2013 11:52:42 AM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: The Working Man

One report had the UPS plane on fire before it crashed. MANPAD?


123 posted on 08/14/2013 12:04:49 PM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- which have been proven over time.)
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To: machogirl
How much do you know about micro-burst?
124 posted on 08/14/2013 12:05:51 PM PDT by Yosemitest
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To: topher
One report had the UPS plane on fire before it crashed. MANPAD?

Report was from CNN from someone at the crash scene.

Quote from CNN article:

Witness Peter Torres, a Civil Air Patrol member who said he is a former airline mechanic, said he thought he heard what sounded like a backfire from the jet's engines as the plane passed overhead. He rushed to his window.

"I saw the flash," of an apparent explosion, he said, followed by a "boom" that shook his home.

I guess the flash and 'boom' were the plane crashing (impact)...

125 posted on 08/14/2013 12:13:38 PM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- which have been proven over time.)
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To: Yosemitest

I know about microbursts. I also looked at several playbacks of the radar and airport warnings. Didn’t see anything on the radar indicative of that, but I remember the wind shear in (Dallas?) crash. That’s a lot of good info to digest.

Pilot identified. Godspeed.

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/23133265/pilot-copilot-dead-in-birmingham-ups-cargo-plane-crash


126 posted on 08/14/2013 12:17:02 PM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: Yosemitest
But the Birmingham METAR reports the Altimeter at 29.99 at the time of the crash. Since Center runs all traffic on a standard day Altimeter of 29.92, that's a difference of 700 feet

29.99 minus 29.92 equals 70 feet, not 700 feet. Even if they neglected to reset the altimeter, it's not enough to have made a difference in this case.

That notam closing runway 18 was issued after the crash.

As for the cause, of course this is speculation, but it appears weather was not a factor. The glideslope was out but the visibility was good enough, and there is a PAPI on runway 18 that should have been visible at that range, so I don't think they were following a false ILS glideslope.

So far it seems there must have been a mechanical issue that at least contributed to the accident.

127 posted on 08/14/2013 12:25:14 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: zipper
Then means that it was the 35th NOTAM for August for KBHM, and not the 5th NOTAM issued on August the 3rd?
128 posted on 08/14/2013 12:50:28 PM PDT by Yosemitest
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To: All
People living near the airfield reported seeing flames coming from the plane and hearing its engines struggle in the final moments before impact.

"It was on fire before it hit," said Jerome Sanders, who lives directly across from the runway.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/faa-ups-jet-crashes-birmingham-ala-19954797

129 posted on 08/14/2013 12:51:24 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: machogirl

My sympathies and prayers for the healing of the families.


130 posted on 08/14/2013 12:52:03 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: zipper
Striking tree tops before it crashed might contribute to that.
131 posted on 08/14/2013 12:59:06 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

Yes, each NOTAM has a number, which is nearly meaningless clutter to the end users. The missing NOTAMs in the sequence were no longer valid, thus the gaps in the numbers. Only effective NOTAMs are shown.


http://ourairports.mobi/airports/KBHM/notams.html


132 posted on 08/14/2013 12:59:46 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: zipper

133 posted on 08/14/2013 1:06:12 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: zipper
Okay, thanks.
The further I get away from my retirement as an air traffic controller, the more I forget.
134 posted on 08/14/2013 1:07:57 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

NOTAM BHM 08/035

!BHM 08/035 BHM RWY 18/36 CLSD
CREATED: 14 Aug 2013 10:56:00
SOURCE: KANBYFYX


10:56:00 is in zulu time, which was an hour or so after the crash. They’re on zulu minus five hours, so 5:56 a.m.


135 posted on 08/14/2013 1:11:45 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: ConservativeStatement

I was on an A319 many years ago — about 2005 -— horrible yaw on the approach to Denver. I’m rarely scared or worried when flying but I’ll tell ya, I had no faith he would be able to put her down, straight.

Guess he did - the one-wheel and rudder thing.

I don’t ever want to repeat that approach like that again.


136 posted on 08/14/2013 1:11:50 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: machogirl

FedEx uses a similar aircraft for KSNA, it’s runway(19R)is more than 1500ft shorter than KBHM(RWY18)...of course landing weight has to be figured into the mix.


137 posted on 08/14/2013 1:13:04 PM PDT by RckyRaCoCo (Shall Not Be Infringed)
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To: Yosemitest

wow


138 posted on 08/14/2013 1:15:40 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Yosemitest

I think you may be on to something there — a former airplane mechanic reported hearing sputtering (compressor stalls) just before the impact. Could have been due to damage from the trees, unless they were already experiencing compressor stalls that caused them to lose altitude. 1/4 mile at probably 130 knots (over 2 miles/min) is not long, probably 60 sec divided by 8, or about 7 seconds before impact.

Thanks for your service, those guys in the tower had a really tough job this morning.


139 posted on 08/14/2013 1:18:46 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: zipper
Okay, thanks.
This means the Airbus 300 was probably on approach to RWY 18.
140 posted on 08/14/2013 1:22:01 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: zipper
Accident reports from a tower controller's perspective are a real headache.
But the controllers can walk away from the crash after they get relieved of duty, and go have a drink.

But I still wonder about thunderstorms in the area, lightening strikes on final (electrical and computer failure/reboot, and flame outs on both engines),
and micro-burst from a rainstorm, or just a sudden change of direction in wind and a sudden change in wind speed with a micro-burst.
All of this could have happened in sudden sequence, or at the same time.
141 posted on 08/14/2013 1:28:27 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: machogirl
After watching that video,
More proof that thunderstorms were in the area ... or is it just as glitch in the replay function of that video ???
142 posted on 08/14/2013 1:42:34 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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Comment #143 Removed by Moderator

To: zipper
One other question,
144 posted on 08/14/2013 1:52:05 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

The 2nd pilot in the plane was a woman . . .


145 posted on 08/14/2013 1:58:18 PM PDT by imemyself
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To: zipper
Thank machogirl because she's the one who found and linked that fact.
146 posted on 08/14/2013 1:58:27 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: imemyself

Source?


147 posted on 08/14/2013 1:59:22 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

I did see that white flash while watching. Will a lightening strike while take off or landing fry everything? or enough that recovery is tough?


148 posted on 08/14/2013 2:30:39 PM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: RckyRaCoCo

wow, thanks


149 posted on 08/14/2013 2:34:10 PM PDT by machogirl (First they came for my tagline)
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To: F15Eagle
Update:
150 posted on 08/14/2013 2:41:53 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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