Skip to comments.Pope bows for Muslim Queen Rania of Jordan in latest display of breaking with tradition
Posted on 09/01/2013 7:03:45 AM PDT by NotYourAverageDhimmi
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He is part of a church after all.
I see what you did there.
Without the Jordanian royals' support, these Assyrian Orthodox and Chaldean Catholic refugees are dead meat.
This is so much more serious than the FReeper LoFo refrain of "Poopy Ol' Pope bows to ragheads."
perhaps you mean knave.
Spelling is important if you want to make a point. Homonyms are a lot of fun.
Very well said. The Pope is the Head of the Church here on earth, but he is also a Head of State, a diplomat, and must keep that in mind when dealing with matters of state. The state of Christianity in the Middle East is tenuous, as the Pope well knows, and showing respect to other Middle Easter heads of state, who are trying to help, and their wives, goes a long way in the diplomacy department.
Thanks for that link. I KNEW I’d seen Popes ‘bowing’ when greeting other heads of state, or higher ups in various governments before. Seems it’s simply a gesture of respect, rather than one of supplication, as some here have seemed to interpret it.
A man his age is probably long past the days of making foolish mistakes. He very likely knew exactly what the expected benefits were when he bowed to the lady.
I was taught to always pay respect to a man’s wife when you go begging for his favor. I half think he’s flirting with the king’s young wife fully knowing how much influence she has in the king’s castle after business hours.
OK, pretty obviously the patriarchs, prophets, and kings knew about the commandment not to bow down and worship anything or anybody but God. But here they are bowing, kneeling, and prostrating, even to pagans (Hittite, Egyptian and Moabite) and God is not offended. Why?
Because the commandment clearly forbids bowing and worshipping a creature as the Creator; it does not forbid kneeling or bowing (to king, prophet, father, husband or brother) as a form of honor.
And as you can see, it was a very common, customary, form of honor.
As 21st century Americans, we do not live in a society with a rich culture of courtesy and honor.
That's why we do not evaluate it fairly. It is not abominable. It is the universal gesture of courtly behavior.
Remember --- this is almost better ---the woman at Jacob's well? Remember how the Apostles got their tefillin all in a wad because of the undignified way their rabbi, Jesus, was relating to her in public? A Samaritan and a woman?
Showing public respect to a queen from a Hashemite kingdom where women are still, in some ways, like property? I have to smile at your use to the term "a cavalier manner". It's the exact, precise opposite: not cavalier, but chivalrous. Chivalry which springs from the heart of Christ.
Actually I’m big on bowing (Renaissance re-enactor) but not big on worshipping a created being.
None of us is in favor of worshipping a created being. There is only one God. We all know that.
I do not know why is there a big deal being made about all of this. The royal couple from Jordan are not radical Islamofacists.
Could it be that Pope Francis is teaching by example the need for women in general to be treated with respect?
Considering how women in Islam are often not treated in a respectful manner by the male half of that religion, could the Pope be simply sending a message in that manner?
Maybe simply pleading in this way with the King and Queen of Jordan to make sure the Christians who do live in that country are protected.
“No it isnt. This Pope is demeaning his office. He is taking the dignity out of it. The less he acts with dignity, the less others will treat him and the Office of the Pope with dignity. This will not bode well in the future when heads of State have no respect for this Pope or the Vatican when he himself treats his position in such a cavelier manner.”
Eh. I find humility refreshing. Christ, as God, did not exert his authority at every turn. How much less should every proclaimed follower of Christ act like royalty?
Unless you are under the delusion that the pope is royalty...?
Lets hope he continues to strip away the worldliness as a leader of a Christian church.
How prescient of you to know he was indeed bowing to their religion. Of course there's absolutely no reason in your mind to believe that maybe he was just showing respect to a lady who is the wife of a head of state..........
You remind me of that guy at the local market whose job is to pick fly shit out of the pepper bins.......
I agree. Rather than turn spelling-Nazi, you made a very elegant pun.
I would have no problem being corrected that way. It’s all in the attitude.
Makes sense to me, Biggirl!
‘sacrilegious against God or sacred things; profane.’ that’s the definition. Since the pope has decided to bow to another he is showing deference to that individual (like O did with the king of saudi arabia). There is no reason to do this. He is bowing to a sovereign. The pope is supposed to be God’s representative here on earth....God bows to no one.
If you want to say he was being polite. I say nonsense. Just as presidents shouldn’t bow to other sovereigns neither should the pope
‘sacrilegious against God or sacred things; profane.’
Interesting that you do not cite ANY New Testament evidence of bowing to a sovereign.
Your argument does not hold water. If you want to live in ‘that’ kind of society I am sure the Japanese would welcome you
That's your best shot--- an argument from silence?
There's no NT evidence of saluting an officer, rising for a judge, putting flowers on a grave, wearing a wedding ring, having a pot-luck supper or even kissing a wife. The argument from silence doesn't work.
St. John says, if everything the Lord Jesus said and did--- let alone everything His faithful saints said and did --- were recorded, the earth itself would not be sufficient to hold all the books.
Common sense, my friend: Biblical culture was a bowing culture. They had many of the same or similar forms of courtesy and honor as did other traditional societies around the world.
"Your argument does not hold water."
Are you going to attempt to adduce any evidence for that, or just float it out there with no foundation, for me to accept by faith alone?
"If you want to live in that kind of society I am sure the Japanese would welcome you"
It would be good to live in an America which retained and respected its own traditions of courtesy and honor. But ---I don't know you, I could be quite wrong --- perhaps you are young and can't remember when our presently flip, callous, slovenly-casual, vulgar, trashed-out society had its own firm norms of dignity and decorum.
George Washington bowed to the first House and Senate when he assumed his duties as President; he also thought it was un-statesmanlike to shake hands with visitors and dignitaries, and he bowed to them as well.
Lincoln, too, preferred bowing on occasions of state, and bowed to the audience in the Ford Theatre on the very evening when he was assassinated.
Yeah, I looked it up.
Oh you are so correct you do not know me. I remember a time when people were courteous and civil. But in those times I also remember there was a lot of hatred and injustice and truly awful behavior.
Every time has its own unique challenges.
Honoring some one’s position does NOT require that one bow to them....that is known as low towing. Read some Kipling to find the referrence and implication.
Lincoln and Washington were never considered to be the vicar of Christ....as the roman church claims of the pope.
I sure wish you had posted those pictures 75 replies ago!
I thought this was kinda nice: #73
Indeed I agree with this and it’s in keeping with how I’m one of those wascally Crazy Evangelicals.
Any move that the pope of the Roman Catholic worship community makes to say “hey, please do not treat me as a figurehead” is very, very Christian. Jesus said it in Jewish terms when He said don’t go by the name of Rabbi (a title of renown for greatness purportedly earned by amassed knowledge).
I keep wondering if this is the pope which will abolish the papacy! In some kind of stunning ecumenical move! If a certain Roman Catholic prophecy comes to pass which alleges to number the popes and, remarkably, has the number of the last one exactly corresponding to Francis. (It was going to be the pope who followed Benedict.)
Every sincere Christian should be in a sense “a” vicar of Christ. After all they may never meet a pope but still may meet you as a Christian and that puts YOU on the spot to do what you can for the Lord.
Clearly the Roman Catholic pope has the ceremonial top spot in that capacity (being vicar of Christ) within the Roman Catholic worship community. Popes who take this visibility seriously and lay their lives before the Lord do better than those who make it seem to be about themselves by fading away from the calls of the post. I do not know if Benedict was physically ailing but he made a wiser choice, I perceive, than John Paul did. John Paul wanted to bear up through suffering to the end for his Lord, not a bad aspiration, but Christ also wanted this part of His church to have better than suffering succotash at the top spot. He wanted it to have a vigorous, vocal leader. Which is why, I perceive, Benedict passed the baton to Francis.
I don't think Pope Frank is going to abolish the papacy, but he certainly has the power, and apparently the inclination, to tweak its scope in practice. The Orthodox brethren certainly perked up heir ears when, on his first day, Francis described himself as having been elected "Bishop of Rome" --- and didn't mention any of the other stuff. It hinted that he was going to focus on his own backyard, jurisdictionally speaking.
He also has the authority to determine how his successor will be picked. (It hasn't always been by a vote of Cardinals, of course. That was a relatively recent innovation: 1059.)
I always thought it would be neat if they said all the candidates for Pope have to be bishops (men), but all the electors (cardinals) would be women.
Are you sure you're not a closet Catholic?
then why cite their bowing as being comparable to that of the pope
"If you want to live in that kind of society I am sure the Japanese would welcome you."My point was, it's not just Japan. America, too, used to be a country where people knew a bit about courtesy and honor.
As for the Pope being comparable to Washington and Lincoln? Well, he's comparable in, at minimum, two ways: first, as a head of state; and second, as a Christian gentleman.
I wouldn’t see that happening either in a literal sense, but maybe this pope’s presiding will be marked with an unmistakable change in tone towards the remainder of Christendom. That of course he hopes Christendom will reunite, but that at the same time he respects the choice of the rest of Christendom to worship in the milieu where they are and sees them all together with his congregation (the largest single one on earth) as part of one large church. It would be a new model for the papacy rather than an abolition of the office. And one which definitely would get the evangelicals talking with Rome far more freely now that they do not perceive Rome as stating they are doomed for worshiping where they are.
I’ve got beliefs that wouldn’t rhyme with current Roman Catholic doctrine. One of them is a “Calminian” belief that holds to the permanency of a sealed salvation; this is not a testimony to our power but to the power of the Lord to line His deterministic ducks up in a row, yet mystically without robbing us of our wills. “My Father gives them to Me and nobody can snatch them out of My hand.” We don’t see all the details of how God lines up our choices with space and time and that’s fine with me; He’s God and I’m not. Anyhow you can’t fail to notice how I got a certain cynical bruin to shut up when I pulled that card out of my deck! He’s Calvinist and we agree with respect to the final phase of the life of a person who is saved and that is sufficient when we discuss it.
I am an odd case in modern Christendom. I affirm the work of Christ wherever it occurs. I take a grace view, slow to condemn, when seeking to understand what’s really going on. Some folks just pull together big conglomerations of damnation in their thoughts, like a magnet. Agh, this or that thing is the Great Whore (which actually does not appear in the bible until well into a very godless phase of history). I have never seen Roman Catholics rejoice that hey they are Roman Catholics... if this happened then I would say they have truly gone off the deep end and shucked off the Lord for a completely synthetic entity. THAT is how this Whore would act; she’d be extremely brazen because she would be powered from hell. Anyhow to me that’s like comparing a garter snake to a deadly cobra. That doesn’t mean such thoughts of damnation can’t be set straight later, but getting rid of the “damns” in a life really allows the light in. If Christ did not come to damn, leaving that to happen later when attempts to bless fail, why should we? Why should I? That’s my standpoint.
Anyhow we can agree we disagree on a lot of stuff. But I look at the work of the Lord wherever it takes place and honor it; I always accept the baby, I often detest the bath water.
God bless you.
A mobius-strip of a paradox for sure. That's how I explain it to my RCIA students (the annual comin' in class of Catholic wannabees).
Peace and grace to you, ya redneck! (I prefer "Out and Proud 7A Zone USDA Appalachian-American")
I can be Christian sympatico in multiple contexts because half my mind is not occupied with “oh damn those horrible heretics.” A sentiment which you won’t see in the New Testament. At the same time my mind is not so open my brains fall out... I got deep, fundamental problems with, say, the Mormon model. Christ is more than a spirit brother; He is also God already. They are at best dealing an insult to Christ that He has to work past, and at worst worshiping a powerless, synthetic entity. And the problem seems to show; high muckety muck bishop Mitt Romney is the consummate weather vane. I guess weather vanes are OK if you can keep the wind blowing the right way (we can’t, however) and otherwise they are trouble!
I worship quite boldly in a Southern Baptist congregation and I feel this is where the Lord has brought out my forte.
Baptists and Catholics are pretty good prolife allies here in Upper East Tennessee.
Well, there could be some philosophical convergence here, but obviously there will need to be greater discussions between the Roman Catholic and evangelical segments of Christendom to hash out these details. There may be fewer segments of stark disagreement than we think.
Anyhow when I’ve totally dumped it on the floor, I don’t worry. I exalt the Lord that he forgave me, tell the accusing devil to buzz off because God even used that situation as an advantage in my life to teach me more about His grace, and go on in victory.
This being the bible belt, I am not surprised at all.
When the communities talk, a lot of misconceptions get mowed down on both sides. NOT talking allows room for a lot of lies. There are disagreements no doubt, but adding more that aren’t even based on facts, but on surmises on how the existing disagreements play out in real life, don’t help Christ’s own purpose that we should be one, in status if not physically now.
Christians are saved, live, and thrive because of Christ. That’s one invariant I will insist upon. Mistaken claims that a part of the family is more important and thus defines who the family is (like the elder brother in the story of the prodigal son) don’t affect Christ’s own love because it doesn’t depend on how well His family reflects it right now, this side of heaven.
Re the prodigal son... note that the young, wastrel brother came home to his FATHER. Not to his OLDER BROTHER!
Let’s keep a humble perspective as we seek the Lord’s blessing in what we do. He puts up with a lot of guff that He knows He will get straightened out later. He planned things that way. Satan’s chaos won’t have the last say.
This is such an excellent analogy. And notice that the elder brother doesn't even call him a brother, he calls him "this son of yours" --- boy, you can feel the ice in that across 20 centuries.
Have a beer on me! Or ---oops ---are you from the non-drankin Baptists? (Insert very puzzled Catholic look...)
Yes, the ice is chilling. Fortunately God has more than enough warmth to melt it. I am optimistic with a military strength optimism about Christendom, because Christ is so mighty, not because our modern worship communities are so wonderful. God never lets things happen without a reason. Sometimes it is lessons in retrospect.
Anyhow as the Father throws a party for the younger brother, and it seems to be going on right now (there is emphatic gospel going on in much of it) the whole family will eventually understand because they will all share the Father’s love.
Hey, I do believe the alcohol restriction in the Baptist covenant is the wrong perspective. Since I technically am not a member, I belong officially still to a Bible congregation that has a laxer policy, they let me skate on the joy juice (and in moderation offered to the Lord it is literally a joy juice). The right perspective would be to agree to honor God in our bodies and that would take care of not just the alcohol issue but the sex issue and the eating issue and the exercise issue and the health issue and... lots of stuff.
But! That does not stymie the Lord. It does serve to show that the Lord can minister amongst marked imperfection.
Also I do have a more robust view than the official, if not the unofficial, Roman Catholic one about the durability of a salvation sealed with the Holy Spirit.
The consequence of disobedience in this context isn’t to literally become unsaved. It is to incur chastisement which could easily be more harsh than that of a nonbeliever who sinned in the same way. Because much more is at stake now.
The mortal sin in this context would also be the one that brings on physical death. We are told prayer for this is not necessary, for whatever reason. That seems to open a door for the option, but as we would have a very limited view at best upon the continuation of that story, as opposed to actually watching a stumbling Christian straighten up before our eyes, such a prayer would have little to guide it.
Anyhow... that’s my Crazy Evangelical take. God bless you and remember He never leaves or forsakes you.