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Just How Old is Dinosaur Soft Tissue?
http://www.apologeticspress.org ^ | 11/1/2012 | Eric Lyons

Posted on 10/04/2013 7:15:37 AM PDT by kimtom

Imagine watching an interview on television and hearing a bald, blind, deaf, wrinkled, hunched-back, bedridden man claim that he is 130 years old. Although you might doubt such a claim, if ever there was a man in modern times to live 130 years on Earth, he likely would have looked as worn out as this man appeared. Imagine, however, if a quick-witted, muscular, marathon runner with fair skin, thick, dark hair, low blood pressure, and a good memory, claimed to be 130 years old. What reasonable person would believe such a claim? Everyone would doubt the statement, especially the doctors, who had found the man’s overall health to be comparable to that of a 20-year-old.

Now take a step into the world of evolutionary science. According to evolution’s geologic timetable, since dinosaurs supposedly became extinct 65 million years ago, any dinosaur fossil found in the ground must be at least 65 million years old. But what if the fossils don’t “appear” to be that old? What if, when inspected by scientists, various dinosaur bones around the world are discovered with “highly fibrous,” “flexible,” and elastic bone tissue that “when stretched, returns to its original shape”? What if fibrous proteins such as collagen were found, along with “cell-like structures resembling blood and bone cells”? Would evolutionists come to a similar conclusion as most everyone would about a marathon-running, 130-year-old? Apparently not.

In the last few years, scientists have found a variety of dinosaur bones from around the world that are not completely fossilized. They actually contain intact protein fragments,.......

(Excerpt) Read more at apologeticspress.org ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: dinosaur; softtissue
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Still a interesting find....
1 posted on 10/04/2013 7:15:37 AM PDT by kimtom
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To: kimtom

Evolutionists will believe anything except the possibility that they could be wrong.


2 posted on 10/04/2013 7:36:06 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (From time to time the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.)
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To: kimtom

OMG, the Earth is flat!


3 posted on 10/04/2013 7:36:32 AM PDT by eclectic (Liberalism is a mental disorder)
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To: kimtom
I know this isn't exactly rigorous science, but ...

Some folks look at the Grand Canyon and say, "It's old. How can you not see it?"
I look at dinosaur tissue and say, "It's not that old. How can you not see it?"

4 posted on 10/04/2013 7:36:58 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (21st century. I'm not a fan.)
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To: AngieGal

ping


5 posted on 10/04/2013 7:41:32 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: kimtom
Imagine, however, if a quick-witted, muscular, marathon runner with fair skin, thick, dark hair, low blood pressure, and a good memory, claimed to be 130 years old.

His name would be Lazarus Long.................. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long

6 posted on 10/04/2013 7:46:00 AM PDT by Red Badger (It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong. .....Voltaire)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Why does everyone believe that ALL dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago?

Isn’t it possible that since alligators and others of their type existed then, that some dinos may have actually survived up until near modern times, albeit several thousands of years ago? ...................


7 posted on 10/04/2013 7:49:45 AM PDT by Red Badger (It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong. .....Voltaire)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

True Bro


8 posted on 10/04/2013 7:51:53 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom
Well first of all, I don't think the author understands just what a fossil is - he seems to believe that they all have gone through the process of petrification, and that simply isn't the case. And the fact that something is elastic implies nothing - there are a number of minerals that are quite elastic. At any rate, this should be an interesting thread...


9 posted on 10/04/2013 7:54:26 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Red Badger

“Why does everyone believe ...... albeit several thousands of years ago?..”

a logical question.
but the answer is ; the fossil record does not support that theory.

unless, fossil record (age) is misunderstood...?


10 posted on 10/04/2013 7:57:12 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

Proteins do not degrade all by themselves. They are degraded by the environment. There are bacteria that eat it, oxygen that oxidizes it, water that gets into its nooks and crannies and unfolds it, and a whole slew of natural enzymes that cut it into pieces just because that’s what the body has to do to keep such junk from clogging everything.

Likewise, bones do not become hard and brittle just from age. Over time, as you use them, the body puts calcium in the bones to make them hard and brittle so they’ll be able to support your weight. The body doesn’t have any mechanism of stopping this process, so it just keeps turning your bones into limestone. If you die young, your bones will not calcify in the grave. This is why you normally find bones and teeth as fossils - they were already mineralized at the time of death.

Additional mineralization can replace soft tissue when it rots and mineral-rich water evaporates from the resulting cavity. If the soft tissue is completely enclosed by calcified bone in an airtight and watertight fashion, then it will not decay with time. There would be nothing in there to degrade it.

So no, it is not really surprizing to find soft tissue 65 million years old. It is rare merely because soft tissue is never fully enclosed. Even bone marrow has blood vessels going into it. To preserve it you’d have to have these holes plugged quickly after death, before the decay sets in. This does not occur often, making soft tissue finds very rare.


11 posted on 10/04/2013 8:04:14 AM PDT by Driabrin
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To: stormer

“..I don’t think the author understands just ..”

disagree

How can the soft tissue survive 65 million years?

a fair question


12 posted on 10/04/2013 8:04:56 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

Relying solely on fossils can be misleading.

Assume that some dinos did actually survive up until at least the paleolithic era. They may have been hunted to extinction and eaten by early humans and their bones left to turn to dust. Even small animal bones that were eaten by humans or other animals are only preserved in caves or burial sites. Those left to the open, decay and are never seen since they returned to the soil.

Fossils are very old, but assuming that the animals all died out because of that is not logical..............


13 posted on 10/04/2013 8:05:02 AM PDT by Red Badger (It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong. .....Voltaire)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

Your right! Evolution is junk science and has too many flaws. Seen fossilized cowboy boots, fishing reel, other items that didn’t exist “millions” of years ago. Once again they will do anything to push their view on those that are to stupid to understand anything else.


14 posted on 10/04/2013 8:05:06 AM PDT by Busko (The only thing that is certain is that nothing is certain.)
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To: Driabrin

“...So no, it is not really surprizing to find soft tissue 65 million years old....”

How about a few thousand..?


15 posted on 10/04/2013 8:11:50 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

Read title and thought this was about Harry Reed.


16 posted on 10/04/2013 8:36:00 AM PDT by Musketeer
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To: kimtom

It is a fair question - too bad Lyons didn’t look for any answers. Basically you are citing as a source a fellow with a degree in theology who apparently, because he can’t fathom the science, disagrees with the scientists who actually study and experiment with the material in question. Why didn’t he bother to ask Schweitzer about how old her discovery is? Why didn’t he explore the literature that seeks to answer the questions surround this material like “Dinosaurian Soft Tissues Interpreted as Bacterial Biofilms” Kaye, et al, or Schweitzer’s own paper, “Dinosaur Peptides Suggest Mechanisms of Protein Survival”? Lyons is simply unqualified to intelligently comment on the subject - he doesn’t understand the processes involved and apparently hasn’t sought information that will counter his preconceived notions of Earth’s biological and geological history. Typical apologetics - long on rhetoric, short on fact.


17 posted on 10/04/2013 8:37:55 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Blood of Tyrants; Allegra; big'ol_freeper; Lil'freeper; shove_it; TrueKnightGalahad; ...
Re: Evolutionists will believe anything except the possibility that they could be wrong.

For those convinced in the existence of God and every word in the Bible being completely true, that is fine as they have the faith to believe it with all their heart.

For those convinced in evolution as a scientific fact, that is also fine as they have the faith to believe it with all their heart.

Those that believe in God can also believe in evolution.

Or they can be atheist and believe in evolution.

When any of those above try to make their version the ONLY VERSION I can believe, that is when we split the blanket--

18 posted on 10/04/2013 8:38:00 AM PDT by Bender2 ("I've got a twisted sense of humor, and everything amuses me." RAH Beyond this Horizon)
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To: stormer

and you are???

attacking the author shows your colors......

not interested in truth


19 posted on 10/04/2013 8:49:49 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Musketeer

you made my day...

good one..!!


20 posted on 10/04/2013 8:51:06 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Busko

An old boot with a bunch of minerals precipitated on it is hardly “fossilized”, and the claim of a fossil fishing reel is just too stupid to even entertain.


21 posted on 10/04/2013 8:51:17 AM PDT by stormer
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To: kimtom

I’m a guy with an advanced degree in a hard science who knows that when it comes to science, the information you get from people who have actually done the work is superior to those who have not.


22 posted on 10/04/2013 8:55:37 AM PDT by stormer
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To: stormer

no, you are a evolutionist whose pride is in his knowledge
and gets angry when your religion is threatened.

You are wrong, anyone (even you) can quote the work of other people. You do not need advanced degrees to see the truth. (even lies)
you do not need an advance degree to disagree, you do not need a degree to have knowledge.

you need only to read.

Therefore , I disagree with you, most emphatically

It is WHAT you read that makes you who/ what you are.
But alas! “the wisdom of men is Foolishness to God..”


23 posted on 10/04/2013 9:03:04 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Driabrin

Maybe if you reduced the temps to single degree Kelvin levels, otherwise the soft tissue should disappeared due to simple thermal degradation over 65 million years.


24 posted on 10/04/2013 9:03:55 AM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: Bender2
Those that believe in God can also believe in evolution.

There are those of us who believe God's Word is not an engineering manual, and are open to scientific explanations of how human beings became what we are, but do not bitterly cling to unproven scientific theories.

Remember, the Ptolemaic Model of cosmology was considered a "fact" for more than a thousand years.

25 posted on 10/04/2013 9:04:27 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.' Matthew 5:37)
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To: stormer

PS

“...the information you get from people who have actually done the work is superior to those who have not....”

Not if they do not understand it.


26 posted on 10/04/2013 9:04:35 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: dangerdoc

I can see an “out” for them... maybe.

The earth is billions of years old,
but somehow, some dinosaurs continued to live up to a few thousand years ago.


27 posted on 10/04/2013 9:07:11 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: kimtom

Otzi, and many bog man and women. Also mummies found in deserts, like the Gobi and in Peru. The conditions are bad for decomposition.


28 posted on 10/04/2013 9:08:31 AM PDT by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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To: kimtom
What if, when inspected by scientists, various dinosaur bones around the world are discovered with “highly fibrous,” “flexible,” and elastic bone tissue that “when stretched, returns to its original shape”? What if fibrous proteins such as collagen were found, along with “cell-like structures resembling blood and bone cells”? Would evolutionists come to a similar conclusion as most everyone would about a marathon-running, 130-year-old? Apparently not.

A couple of questions.

1. Is '“highly fibrous,” “flexible,” and elastic bone tissue that “when stretched, returns to its original shape”' and accurate description of what was really found?

2. If it's not, why are there conclusions being drawn based on the premise that it was?

29 posted on 10/04/2013 9:12:15 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: stormer

And just which branch of science is your specialty?

Well, then I guess we need people like you to explain who is right in the global warmi - err - climate change science then too, ehh?!?!

Evolution has more lies, fraud, and abuse of science than global warming [as well as all other scientific disciplines] but it has had much longer for the stories to be concocted huh?


30 posted on 10/04/2013 9:13:39 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: tacticalogic

UUhhmmmm....?


31 posted on 10/04/2013 9:14:01 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

It’s due to man made global warming, Republican radical enviromental policy(s), effects of long dormant racism, and failure to support a wealth redistibution plan. Had these items been taken into account in our past then this soft tissue would have fossilized timely in their 80,000,000 year life span.

It is all very simple.


32 posted on 10/04/2013 9:16:28 AM PDT by dirtymac (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country)
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To: tacticalogic

to answer both questions,

The material was not “expected” to remain flexible.
It was not fossilized.

It raises questions about age.
we know that fossilization does NOT take long. it begs the question, How long did it take, how old is this fossil.
Now to question standing evolutionary thought, is un thinkable!

Honestly is needed.


33 posted on 10/04/2013 9:18:10 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom
The article talks about finding "protein fragments".

That seems to be a far cry from '“highly fibrous,” “flexible,” and elastic bone tissue that “when stretched, returns to its original shape”'

34 posted on 10/04/2013 9:20:37 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: kimtom
Honest is needed.

Do you think implying that they found '“highly fibrous,” “flexible,” and elastic bone tissue that “when stretched, returns to its original shape”' is providing that honesty?

35 posted on 10/04/2013 9:24:09 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic; kimtom

So tactic, are you just trying to sow doubts about stuff that ‘s been reported for almost 10 years now?

“In the course of testing a B. rex bone fragment further, Schweitzer asked her lab technician, Jennifer Wittmeyer, to put it in weak acid, which slowly dissolves bone, including fossilized bone—but not soft tissues. One Friday night in January 2004, Wittmeyer was in the lab as usual. She took out a fossil chip that had been in the acid for three days and put it under the microscope to take a picture. “[The chip] was curved so much, I couldn’t get it in focus,” Wittmeyer recalls. She used forceps to flatten it. “My forceps kind of sunk into it, made a little indentation and it curled back up. I was like, stop it!” Finally, through her irritation, she realized what she had: a fragment of dinosaur soft tissue left behind when the mineral bone around it had dissolved. Suddenly Schweitzer and Wittmeyer were dealing with something no one else had ever seen. For a couple of weeks, Wittmeyer said, it was like Christmas every day.

In the lab, Wittmeyer now takes out a dish with six compartments, each holding a little brown dab of tissue in clear liquid, and puts it under the microscope lens. Inside each specimen is a fine network of almost-clear branching vessels—the tissue of a female Tyrannosaurus rex that strode through the forests 68 million years ago, preparing to lay eggs. Close up, the blood vessels from that T. rex and her ostrich cousins look remarkably alike. Inside the dinosaur vessels are things Schweitzer diplomatically calls “round microstructures” in the journal article, out of an abundance of scientific caution, but they are red and round, and she and other scientists suspect that they are red blood cells.

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html#ixzz2glrvxY1T


36 posted on 10/04/2013 9:26:00 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: BrandtMichaels
So tactic, are you just trying to sow doubts about stuff that‘s been reported for almost 10 years now?

No, the article does a pretty good job of that. I do wonder how it's been reported for almost 10 years, and keeps showing up as "News".

37 posted on 10/04/2013 9:28:40 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

post 36

honesty


38 posted on 10/04/2013 9:32:51 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: tacticalogic

“..almost 10 years, and keeps showing up as “News”...”

anything not heard before becomes news!!!

(is that new news, or old news..??)


39 posted on 10/04/2013 9:34:46 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

The article describes things that the account of the researchers does not say they found. That causes me to have doubts. It was an honest assesment.


40 posted on 10/04/2013 9:43:00 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

I’m not surprised when the ptb [powers that be] decide to spike stories that don’t agree with their agenda or those that just plain embarrass them due to lack of scientific reasoning and logic.

Have not seen much on the 65 million year old coalecanthe and it’s living releative in South America fish markets lately either...

Below from creationscience.com

” 25. Out-of-Sequence Fossils

Frequently, fossils are not vertically sequenced in the assumed evolutionary order.a For example, in Uzbekistan, 86 consecutive hoofprints of horses were found in rocks dating back to the dinosaurs.b A leading authority on the Grand Canyon published photographs of horselike hoofprints visible in rocks that, according to the theory of evolution, predate hoofed animals by more than 100 million years.c Dinosaur and humanlike footprints were found together in Turkmenistand and Arizona.e Sometimes, land animals, flying animals, and marine animals are fossilized side-by-side in the same rock.f Dinosaur, whale, elephant, horse, and other fossils, plus crude human tools, have reportedly been found in phosphate beds in South Carolina.g Coal beds contain round, black lumps called coal balls, some of which contain flowering plants that allegedly evolved 100 million years after the coal bed was formed.h Amber, found in Illinois coal beds, contain chemical signatures showing that the amber came from flowering plants, but flowering plants supposedly evolved 170 million years after the coal formed.i In the Grand Canyon, in Venezuela, in Kashmir, and in Guyana, spores of ferns and pollen from flowering plants are found in Cambrianj rocks—rocks supposedly deposited before flowering plants evolved. Pollen has also been found in Precambriank rocks deposited before life allegedly evolved.

Petrified trees in Arizona’s Petrified Forest National Park contain fossilized nests of bees and cocoons of wasps. The petrified forests are reputedly 220 million years old, while bees (and flowering plants, which bees require) supposedly evolved almost 100 million years later.l Pollinating insects and fossil flies, with long, well-developed tubes for sucking nectar from flowers, are dated 25 million years before flowers are assumed to have evolved.m Most evolutionists and textbooks systematically ignore discoveries which conflict with the evolutionary time scale. “


41 posted on 10/04/2013 9:48:29 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: tacticalogic

I believe the article is about the question , not the find. I think the author assumed knowledge of the fact.


42 posted on 10/04/2013 9:49:10 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: BrandtMichaels
I’m not surprised when the ptb [powers that be] decide to spike stories that don’t agree with their agenda or those that just plain embarrass them due to lack of scientific reasoning and logic.

They don't seem to be doing a very good job of spiking it if it's "been reported for almost 10 years".

43 posted on 10/04/2013 9:51:53 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: BrandtMichaels
evolutionist responses (from scientist) are usually subdued or silent.

Honest scientist like questions, and if shown inconsistencies will explore other hypotheses.
I have found even honest evolutionist will do this, however they refuse to except sometimes the obvious answer.

except those (scientist) that change and become Creationist.

Of course then, they (in the eyes of evolutionist)cease to be scientist.

44 posted on 10/04/2013 9:56:26 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: tacticalogic

What I’m getting at is how many other studies this one article must have spawned and yet I am hard-pressed to find much in the way of similar reports [prsumably b/c it does not fit the approved agnda of the ptb].

Just like so many creation questions and assertions go unanswered by the pro-evo crowd on these threads.


45 posted on 10/04/2013 9:56:48 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: kimtom
I believe the article is about the question , not the find. I think the author assumed knowledge of the fact.

The author is attacking scientists for their reaction to a discovery that has never been made. How is that helping?

46 posted on 10/04/2013 10:00:30 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: kimtom

For the most part, the dinos began to die off about 1000 years ago, judging by the cultural evidence we have, both written and physical.


47 posted on 10/04/2013 10:02:11 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: BrandtMichaels
[prsumably b/c it does not fit the approved agnda of the ptb].

Have you ever considered the possibility that the presumtion is flawed?

48 posted on 10/04/2013 10:03:03 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Well, I would agree


49 posted on 10/04/2013 10:06:15 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: tacticalogic

How old is the sample in discussion?
How do you arrive at that?

Does the evidence support it?


50 posted on 10/04/2013 10:08:04 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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