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A Chevy Impala That Goes 500 Miles On A Tank? With Natural Gas, It's Possible
Forbes ^ | 10/16/2013 | Joann Muller

Posted on 10/17/2013 6:06:17 AM PDT by thackney

Capitalizing on America’s abundant supply of clean-burning, low-cost natural gas, General Motors said Wednesday it will build a Chevrolet Impala sedan that can operate on either gasoline or compressed natural gas and travel up to 500 miles between fill-ups.

The bi-fuel Impala, which goes on sale summer as a 2015 model, could be the start of something big. Honda Motor has been selling a natural gas-powered Civic since 2011 and while still modest, sales have been steadily rising. The Japanese carmaker is on track to sell about 2,500 CNG Civics this year, up from 1,900 in 2012 and 1,200 the year before. In July, Ford Motor said its most popular vehicle, the F-150 pickup, will be offered with a compressed natural gas engine starting in the 2014 model year.

“Natural gas will grow increasingly attractive as an alternative fuel source, as we’ve seen each year with natural gas Honda Civic sales, particularly in areas like California where HOV lane access is available,” said Alec Gutierrez, senior analyst for Kelley Blue Book. “The lack of infrastructure remains a hurdle, but if more automakers begin to offer CNG-powered vehicles, we could see a greater push for access to CNG in the years to come.”

The Impala’s bi-fuel powertrain is engineered to switch seamlessly from CNG to gasoline, which should reassure consumers worried about finding a place to refuel. For business fleet customers, whose drivers return to a central location, CNG refueling shouldn’t be a problem. GM did not announce the new car’s price, which is likely to be higher than the standard gas model, but savings at the pump could offset that extra payout quickly.

(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cng; energy; naturalgas
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1 posted on 10/17/2013 6:06:17 AM PDT by thackney
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To: thackney

And in an accident it will break into 500 pieces and go 500 feet in every direction.


2 posted on 10/17/2013 6:09:22 AM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: thackney

Already well underway. I know a company that is doing quite well converting commercial fleets to run on LNG. Between the lower cost and the cleaner burn, resulting in less engine wear, the ROI is pretty dramatic.


3 posted on 10/17/2013 6:10:14 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: thackney

Not the first time this has been done, of course. My BF has two bi-fuel Chevys, both Cavaliers, from the early 2000s. They were commonly used as fleet cars for government agencies, but I guess they proved impractical at the time and were auctioned off.

The computers regulating the natural gas switchover in his cars went bad long ago, so now he just runs them on regular gasoline.


4 posted on 10/17/2013 6:10:51 AM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia (Democrats: The perfect party for the helpless and stupid, and those who would rule over them.)
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To: thackney

Yeah....really believable - from the people that brought you the destruction of free-enterprise, legal interest in financial assets, pandering to Unions and their medical plan, et al....

They lied, LIED about Volt’s efficacy, its financing, its value, its performance - everything....Just because you slap the name “Impala” on it ain’t gonna cut it this time, GM. Choke on your cars and trucks.


5 posted on 10/17/2013 6:12:21 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: thackney

This is easy to do, they just make the fuel tank larger.

I could build one that could go a thousand miles, but wouldn’t have a back seat, and the springs would have to be stronger.


6 posted on 10/17/2013 6:13:33 AM PDT by Venturer (Keep Obama and you aint seen nothing yet.)
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To: George from New England
And in an accident it will break into 500 pieces and go 500 feet in every direction.

We have been using compressed natural gas for decades in highway vehicles. The crash test data, and actual crashes, proves your made up claim false.

Carbon fiber tanks designed to withstand 4,000 psi or more are quite strong and don't shatter.

7 posted on 10/17/2013 6:16:37 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: George from New England

And in an accident it will break into 500 pieces and go 500 feet in every direction.

These pieces will go in excess of 500 MPH. I had a 79 Vega that got 35MPG at interstate speed limit. I often stopped to get gas just to stretch my legs and get something to drink. 500 miles in one setting is cruel and usual punishment.


8 posted on 10/17/2013 6:16:38 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: George from New England
And in an accident it will break into 500 pieces and go 500 feet in every direction.

Nope. Hundreds of thousands of these cars are in operation (they are somewhat common in South America, which has plenty of car accidents). It doesn't happen. You can't compare what happens with an enclosed small tank with a six in natural gas feeder line. The auto insurance companies do not charge appreciably more for insuring CNG fueled cars.
9 posted on 10/17/2013 6:22:54 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: mountainlion; George from New England

Is CNG safe?
http://www.oringcngfuelsystems.com/is-cng-safe/

The answer to this is, unequivocally, yes CNG is a safe form of energy. However, there are many myths out there regarding the dangers of CNG and we would like to discuss those here. For a visual demonstration of just how safe CNG is, please check out these three videos: (at link above)

Gun Test on Natural Gas Tank

Dynamite Test on Natural Gas Tank

Severe Abuse Test on Natural Gas Tank


10 posted on 10/17/2013 6:23:00 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Venturer

lol

VW made a splash with the Passat turbodiesel, able to do 700 miles on one tank of fuel. Perhaps jealous, Mercedes has recently introduced the E250 diesel, a sedan that can travel a bladder-busting 800 miles on a single tank.


11 posted on 10/17/2013 6:23:20 AM PDT by hlmencken3 (Originalist on the the 'general welfare' clause? No? NOT an originalist!)
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To: thackney

A 1997 to 2001 Camry 4 cylinder will go 600 miles on a tank. 41 MPG at 75 MPH. I have done it many times. The newer ones are too heavy and have too much frontal area to do that good.


12 posted on 10/17/2013 6:23:57 AM PDT by SpeakerToAnimals (I hope to earn a name in battle)
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To: Gaffer
Yeah....really believable - from the people that brought you the destruction of free-enterprise, legal interest in financial assets, pandering to Unions and their medical plan, et al....

I don't know if the Impala is any good, but the technology is proven. It is a LOT simpler (and cheaper)to take a good ol' combustion engine and make modifications to run on CNG then to design a car that carries around enough battery juice to propel it 300 miles.
13 posted on 10/17/2013 6:25:24 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: Gaffer
Government Motors. What no one mentions is the cost of the energy it takes to compress the natural gas. That being said, LNG is going to be the future for road vehicles and much more - IMO
14 posted on 10/17/2013 6:27:23 AM PDT by atc23 (The Confederacy was the single greatest conservative resistance to federal authority ever.)
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To: thackney
Big deal...I used to have an '86 Chevy Corvette that could go over 500 miles on a tank (20 gallon tank, 28 mpg at highway speeds).
15 posted on 10/17/2013 6:27:40 AM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Venturer

Back in the early 70s, when the oil embargo hit, GM began working on a 40 gallon gas tank for the full size cars but the govt put the kibosh on it.


16 posted on 10/17/2013 6:28:47 AM PDT by nascarnation (Frequently wrong but rarely in doubt....)
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To: atc23
What no one mentions is the cost of the energy it takes to compress the natural gas.

That is part of the CNG price as it is sold. Just like we don't need to discuss the cost of refining crude into gasoline, the cost is built into the price of the fuel.

http://www.cngprices.com/station_map.php,/a>

17 posted on 10/17/2013 6:30:40 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Gaffer

Ok, the green liars lied about the volt.

Being conservative does not mean hating green if it makes free market sense.

Note: Honda has been making, selling, and profiting from a CNG Civic for a couple years now without any subsidies.


18 posted on 10/17/2013 6:31:07 AM PDT by staytrue
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To: atc23

No one mentions it because it is of course included in the price you pay.


19 posted on 10/17/2013 6:33:13 AM PDT by jiggyboy (Ten percent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
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To: thackney

The other advantage to CNG that no one every mentions is the storage of it. Typically around here when a gas station needs to replace their gasoline storage tanks the company goes out of business. Replacement of the tanks is very expensive. IF a gasoline storage tank ever leaks, it becomes an EPA superfund site. The owners of the station almost always end up declaring bankruptcy. If a CNG tank ever leaks it then just vents into the atmosphere.


20 posted on 10/17/2013 6:33:23 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: Kip Russell
Big deal...I used to have an '86 Chevy Corvette that could go over 500 miles on a tank (20 gallon tank, 28 mpg at highway speeds).

Could it do it on fuel that costs 1/3 less than gasoline? The big problem up to now has bee the range of the cars, as CNG definitely takes up more room. I'd like to see what's left of the trunk in the bi-fuel Impala. Also, to get 500 miles, do you have to use gasoline as well as CNG?
21 posted on 10/17/2013 6:33:29 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: staytrue

I agree CNG is a good option. However, the last company in existence that could do it justice is GM. They should starve and go out of business.


22 posted on 10/17/2013 6:35:05 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: thackney

I guess you could say that Dynamite, Black Powder and Nitroglycerin are safe also. It is a relative statement. I don’t want to hunt down a place to get high pressure natural gas just to drive a car. It is a risk and hassle that I am not ready to take. Why not get gas prices back under $2.00 a gallon and leave the exotic fuels to the hobbyists. Rational fuel prices would expand the economy greatly and give freedom of travel back to the people.


23 posted on 10/17/2013 6:35:43 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: hlmencken3
Dear hlmencken3,

My 2005 E320 CDI regularly goes 600 miles on a tank, plus or minus. In mixed driving, I average 30 mpg, but on one roundtrip from the Annapolis area to Ocean City, Maryland, I got 40 mpg, even with stop-and-go traffic in the Easton - Cambridge area, at speeds of 65 mph - 75 mph.


sitetest

24 posted on 10/17/2013 6:36:19 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: atc23
LNG is going to be the future for road vehicles and much more - IMO

LNG is not going to be economic for consumers like you and I. It works great for fleet service or long-haul trucking. But the need to either keep the engine running or the tank temperature below -260°F after a few days of non-use is not going be an economic solution for a daily driver.

25 posted on 10/17/2013 6:36:20 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: mountainlion
Why not get gas prices back under $2.00 a gallon

Wishing will not make it so. Pretending that the cost to produce oil in the shale fields is no different than older conventional fields won't make it true.

26 posted on 10/17/2013 6:38:40 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: mountainlion
And in an accident it will break into 500 pieces and go 500 feet in every direction.

You should google all the suppliers from fuel lines, fuel injection and the tankage involved. All the certified retrofitters meet all the Govt alphabet soup certifications, but you should look into the tanks for CNG made out of spun and welded aluminum rapped in Carbon-Fiber/Graphite, that meet all crash requirements...

27 posted on 10/17/2013 6:41:25 AM PDT by taildragger (The E-GOP won't know what hit them, The Party of Reagan is almost here, hang tight folks....)
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To: thackney
But the need to either keep the engine running or the tank temperature below -260°F after a few days of non-use is not going be an economic solution for a daily driver.

What? I don't think you've done much research into this, have you? There's no refrigeration on LNG tanks.

28 posted on 10/17/2013 6:43:18 AM PDT by TangoLimaSierra (To win the country back, we need to be as mean as the Libs say we are.)
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To: George from New England

At 28 mpg, my Impala is getting 400 + to the tank now.


29 posted on 10/17/2013 6:43:20 AM PDT by ArtDodger
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To: thackney
I had a diesel Land Cruiser in Uganda that would travel 960+ miles on a fill-up. We had the optional two 90 liter (24 US gal) fuel tanks.

Stories like this with insufficient information (no, I have not bothered to read the full article about a GM vehicle) are like the friend why says,

"My car gets GREAT gas mileage!"

"Really, how much?"

"Well, I filled up last Friday and am still showing a quarter tank remaining!"

30 posted on 10/17/2013 6:43:49 AM PDT by BwanaNdege ("Life is short. It's even shorter if you suggest going out for pizza on your anniversary" Peter Egan)
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To: mountainlion
I guess you could say that Dynamite, Black Powder and Nitroglycerin are safe also. It is a relative statement.

Insurance companies that evaluate cost and risk have figured out that CNG is safer than gasoline.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westport.com%2Fis%2Fnatural-gas%2Fhow-safe-are-natural-gas-vehicles.pdf&ei=heNfUqiIOMnj4AOSm4GwDg&usg=AFQjCNH4YnftP1beCblRrMGxzEkVMv_Wrw&bvm=bv.54176721,d.dmg

Data collected over time has demonstrated natural gas vehicles to be safe in actual operation. Based on a survey of 8,331 natural gas utility, school, municipal and business fleet vehicles (NGVs) that traveled 178.3 million miles:

• The NGV fleet vehicle injury rate was 37% lower than the gasoline fleet vehicle rate.

• There were no fatalities compared with 1.28 deaths per 100 million miles for gasoline fleet vehicles

31 posted on 10/17/2013 6:45:45 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
They said on the radio yesterday that the USA had passed Saudi Arabia in production. The current administration has an energy policy to keep all energy as high as possible. We have only something like 24% of our energy coming form public land and have exceeded Saudi Arabia in production. The USA has the largest carbon based energy reserves in the world but demoRats are against reasonable energy costs. A real American administration would serve America's energy needs not Saudi Arabia's banks and terrorists.
32 posted on 10/17/2013 6:45:52 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: BwanaNdege

the sad part being, of course, that by law Ugandan gas stations are 1,000 miles apart


33 posted on 10/17/2013 6:46:36 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: mountainlion
I guess you could say that Dynamite, Black Powder and Nitroglycerin are safe also.

You left gasoline out of your dangerous materials list. when the engine in my Grand Marquis caught fire, the flames shot 30 feet in the air. Ever see a gasoline refinery explosion. Not pretty, and it does happen.


34 posted on 10/17/2013 6:46:39 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: mountainlion

You can probably get around that one.

Has anyne tried a car gas turbine yet?


35 posted on 10/17/2013 6:46:44 AM PDT by Hardraade (http://junipersec.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/nicolae-hussein-obama/)
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To: mountainlion
Just because you have a car that will do 500 miles per tank, does not mean you have use it all up in one sitting.
My motorcycle will do 250 miles per tank of fuel. While I have done that a few times in one sitting, but I sure as hell don't do it every time I ride.

As for as the tank exploding in a collision,I have to call Bull Crap. This ain't 1935. Some fear mongers
sound a lot like today's crop of civil rights activists who are stuck in the 1960s

36 posted on 10/17/2013 6:47:46 AM PDT by Tupelo (Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory, an old Republican Tradition.)
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To: TangoLimaSierra
I don't think you've done much research into this, have you?

LOL!!!

There's no refrigeration on LNG tanks.

No. The insulated tanks must also be designed to withstand the increasing pressure for a typical span of 5 days. After that point, they start venting fuel if nothing else is done to reduce the temperature. This is not going to be acceptable in a residential environment.

37 posted on 10/17/2013 6:48:14 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Dr. Sivana
Could it do it on fuel that costs 1/3 less than gasoline?

No it could it not. I didn't realize CNG had that kind of costs savings on a doller per mile traveled basis.

38 posted on 10/17/2013 6:49:14 AM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: thackney

A compressor must be used to put the gas into your car while parked in your garage. The compressor cost $10,000 and takes 8 to 16 hours to recharge the tank depending on tank size. No one ever mentions this little detail about CNG vehicles.


39 posted on 10/17/2013 6:49:17 AM PDT by robert14 (cng)
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To: thackney

I just re-read some of your posts and you are right on in your support of LNG. However, you are confusing LNG with CNG when talking about low temp tanks. Sorry if my last post was snarky but I thought you were the one poo-pooing LNG.


40 posted on 10/17/2013 6:51:39 AM PDT by TangoLimaSierra (To win the country back, we need to be as mean as the Libs say we are.)
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To: robert14

Competing projects propose $500 home CNG fueler
http://www.cngnow.com/news/Post.aspx?ID=688

They fill overnight. Also most people don’t drive 500 miles every day.


41 posted on 10/17/2013 6:52:52 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

In good conditions, my GMC Duramax can go 500 miles on a tank. In perfect, 600 miles. On straight #2 Diesel. Diesels are easy to convert to CNG.. Add the tank, control system (regulated by boost pressure) and a nozzle in the intake to fumigate the intake with CNG. The kit is very affordable. I considered doing the conversion but the tall pole in the tent was a place to fill the CNG. I have natural gas in my house, but the pump cost $15K last I checked and had to be rebuilt every 40 hours of use. The only other places to fill the CNG around me were municipal filling stations.


42 posted on 10/17/2013 6:52:58 AM PDT by IamConservative (The soul of my lifes journey is Liberty!)
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To: robert14

That can be worked around, by doing the thing modular. Keep two tanks, one being always recharged. Load charged tank instead of charging the car.


43 posted on 10/17/2013 6:54:13 AM PDT by Hardraade (http://junipersec.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/nicolae-hussein-obama/)
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To: IamConservative

How big a tank?


44 posted on 10/17/2013 6:55:41 AM PDT by Chickensoup (we didn't love freedom enough... Solzhenitsyn.)
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To: Kip Russell
No it could it not. I didn't realize CNG had that kind of costs savings on a doller per mile traveled basis.

Yup. The nice thing is that the CNG stations price the fuel in GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent). It is not like E85, where you pay 25 cents less but get a 20% hit on your mileage. The comparison is apples to apples. The main downside is that a tank of CNG holds fewer BTUs/calories/joules than the same sized gas tank.Also, the tanks themselves, and some of the pieces to deliver the fuel to the engine cost more. Modern car computers fdefinitely make the bi-fuel approach more pracical.

The chicken/egg problem is being solved by the truckers, as major truck stop companies are starting to install the pumps nationally. For consumer vehicles, we have some pick-up trucks and the Honda Civic. We definitely need a minivan, SUV and large sedan option available from a good manufacturer. Ford is going in at least for the trcuks, cars might be next.
45 posted on 10/17/2013 6:55:49 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: thackney

They lost me at “chevy”.


46 posted on 10/17/2013 6:57:54 AM PDT by Darksheare (Try my coffee, first one's free..... Even robots will kill for it!)
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To: Dr. Sivana

You left gasoline out of your dangerous materials list.

I saw sometimes 20 full propane tankers on the railroad going though the campus at Colorado State University. Each one was capable of wiping out a radius of one mile.

The Russians have a bomb that weighs about 30,000 pounds and uses fuel for its explosive. It is a “Fuel Air Explosive” device which is their largest non nuclear device.


47 posted on 10/17/2013 6:58:03 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: IamConservative

You can buy a lot of diesel for $15k.


48 posted on 10/17/2013 6:58:10 AM PDT by robert14 (cng)
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To: IamConservative
I have natural gas in my house, but the pump cost $15K last I checked and had to be rebuilt every 40 hours of use.

The original manufacture of the Phill home CNG unit went out of business, mostly due to their quality problems and poor reliability many years ago. The rights to the name and product were purchased by BRC, a commercial CNG refueling manufacture.

The housing may look similar, but it is a far better unit and should be closer to $5,000 installed unless you have other onsite issues.

http://www.brcfuelmaker.it/phill-domestico-prodotto-brc-fuel-maker.aspx

Also, depending on where you live, more CNG commercial stations are opening up.

Natural Gas Fueling Station Locations
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html

In some locations, lease option of the compressor is also available.

http://www.northwest.williams.com/Files/Northwest/AGL_LDC_NGV_Mtg_Fuelmaker_Presentation_2-29-12.pdf

49 posted on 10/17/2013 7:02:02 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Well, crap. I’m the one confusing the two. Sorry.


50 posted on 10/17/2013 7:07:34 AM PDT by TangoLimaSierra (To win the country back, we need to be as mean as the Libs say we are.)
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