Skip to comments.Rules of engagement bind U.S. troops’ actions in Afghanistan [New ROE are WORSE!}
Posted on 11/26/2013 9:17:13 PM PST by huldah1776
"Said retired Army Col. Ken Allard, now a military analyst: Call me crazy, but what on earth is the point of remaining there under these [rules of engagement], much less subjecting American soldiers to another set of restrictions that make sense only in proportion to your distance from the combat zone?
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
My thoughts exactly, let them do what they were trained to do or bring them home. The more restrictive the ROE, the more our troops pay.
Their rules of engagement should be no tighter than the rules our own police operate under.
Nothing like trying to derail a thread.
All we need there is a drone station.
The place is not even suitable to place our people at an airbase.
This is so ridiculous, it’s sickening and again I ask, where the ‘f’ is code pink????
Nevermind, it’s a rhetorical question.
must read book on this very matter
Betrayed : The Shocking True Story of Extortion 17 as told by a Navy SEAL’s Father
Support the Vaughn’s ; BUY and read this book .
They are relentless in pushing back on this travesty .
I don’t understand why anyone would join the military in this day and age. I don’t understand why anyone who is currently in the military would stay in the military.
I can only assume it’s for the paycheck ‘cause there ain’t no jobs for them.
On the contrary: his remark was on point.
Why do the ROE for the police LESS strict than for the troops?
US police can anally delve an innocent man for nine hours, or bulldoze a house and shoot an unarmed man.
US troops - on the other hand - are barely allowed to shoot back if fired upon.
“My thoughts exactly, let them do what they were trained to do or bring them home.”
Bringing them home would be tantamount to admitting the same thing we did in Iraq with out midnight retreat: we lost, and ur troops died for nothing there. The higher these casualties go, the less likely that we’ll pull everyone out altogether. We’re still pretending Iraq was a worthwhile venture, while people are dying daily over there in the instability we created.
“... The rules of engagement place the burden on U.S. air and ground troops to confirm with certainty that a Taliban fighter is armed before they can fire - even if they are 100 percent sure the target is the enemy. In some cases, aerial gunships have been denied permission to fire even though they reported that targets on the move were armed ...
“... U.S. forces shall not enter Afghan homes for the purposes of military operations, except under extraordinary circumstances involving urgent risk to life and limb of U.S. nationals, Mr. Obama pledged ...
“Terrorist-hunting missions will require U.S. personnel to engage in combat by accompanying Afghans on counterterrorism raids and supplying close-air support. That is why the rules for when U.S. troops can and cannot fire on the enemy or enter a dwelling remain important ...”
The formerly less restrictive ROEs were responsible for the Seal Team 6 RPG attack and the total lack of reponse.
I wonder if an objective analysis would show that more of our American troop injuries and deaths are caused by our own government than by enemy action if we could fight without the current ROEs?
How many generals have resigned or publicly complained about these PC rules of engagements which our killing American soldiers?
None. This gives me a clear picture of the leadership in the military today.
1. The rules of engagement place the burden on U.S. air and ground troops to confirm with certainty that a Taliban fighter is armed before they can fire even if they are 100 percent sure the target is the enemy. In some cases, aerial gunships have been denied permission to fire even though they reported that targets on the move were armed.
2. U.S. forces shall not enter Afghan homes for the purposes of military operations, except under extraordinary circumstances involving urgent risk to life and limb of U.S. nationals, Mr. Obama pledged in a letter to the Afghan leader.
This obscenity means that armed enemy within a dwelling simply have to wait for troops to become targets, and then they can fire with impunity. Our troops are forbidden to enter that fighting position that is also a dwelling because they will be told "there is no threat to life or limb if you just leave it alone and exit the area."
These ROE are additional grounds for impeachment.
This is an outright criminal and traitorous act on Obama's part.
Do you disagree that the ROE on our troops is too restrictive?
It should be written in stone that anytime we stop pursuing total victory in any combat operation that we are required to bring our troops home.
This is obscene what's happening to our troops in Afghanistan.
We had a lieutenant sentenced to hard labor for protecting his troops:
The recent conviction of First Lieutenant Clint Lorance is a prime example of how the rules of engagement have placed our troops at risk. No where is this more apparent than in the recent conviction of Lt. Lorance was found guilty of violating the ROE and sentenced to 20 years in prison, forfeiture of pay, and dismissal from the Army.
A First Lieutenant was convicted of murder for ordering his platoon to fire on the Taliban in hostile territory? What kind of war is this?
The twenty-seven year old Lorance had been placed in charge of the platoon on June 30, 2012. The previous commander and 3 of his men had been ambushed and taken off of the battle field just 3 days prior in a small village there.
Lorance and his platoon were off to that village 72 hours later on July 2. His platoon was on high alert in enemy territory in a remote sector of Kandahar Province. They were on foot, using mine detectors to traverse the area. Lorance received a radio warning from Army pilots patrolling the skies that hostiles were North, East and West of the platoons position on the ground. The Lieutenant confirmed the description of the hostiles with the Army pilots, and the pilots continued to monitor the enemy presence.
So the group is in enemy territory surrounded on three sides by hostiles, they are on foot in an area that is believed to be full of landmines on their way to a village that had just wiped out a group of Americans three days prior.
That is when a couple of men sitting idle on motorcycles came into view; they appeared to be acting as spotters. The group fit the description from the Army pilots of hostiles.
It is not uncommon for the Taliban to approach on motorcycles and toss a few grenades as they speed passed, or to relay positions via radio to distant artillery. The area had been taken over by the Taliban after forcing out the local population. So, it wasnt like there was a chance these guys were a motorcyle club out on an afternoon picnic or to travel to the store or inspect their farms. The farmers had long abandoned that region and were south to the river of Kandahar province. It is a bit dicey to grow crops in a combat region and farmer tend to prefer places where troops are not trampling their crops and livestock.
In enemy territory, the intelligence description fit the group. Lorance could have waited for the distant artillery to take out his platoon. He could have waited for them to speed into his platoon with grenades, or fire a shot to set off a land mine. He could have sat there and wondered if the Afghan soldiers were going to take the lead, or inquire if would they perhaps like Americans to do so. A wrong decision would have resulted in his whole platoon being wiped out. To protect his platoon, Clint Lorance radioed his marksman and ordered two long-range precision shots. Two members of the Taliban were killed.
A short while later, Lorances platoon entered the Taliban village where the prior platoon had been wiped out. They were met with gunfire. The arrested two confirmed Taliban fighters and brought them back to headquarters. The arrested Taliban members tested positive for gunpowder. The Taliban members were later released.
The Afghanistan government filed a complaint regarding the incident. That is when the Army arrested First Lieutenant Lorance. Four of his platoon members, including the trigger man who actually took out the two scouts, agreed to testify against Lorance in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Had they not accepted immunity, they would have faced similar prosecution.
Prior to this incident, Lorance had served two combat tours; 15 months in Iraq and 7 months in Afghanistan. He wasnt a rookie to the battlefield and had served in the Army for 10 years and had led the platoon less the 72 hours when the incident occurred. He had seen action before and based his actions on his experience and intelligence report. He did what he believed to be the right thing to save his soldiers and protect their life. For this, he has been convicted of murder under the new ROE.
The website to defend Lt. Lorance has this to say about the Afghan in the Lead ROE when Lorance had asked for clarification on ROE changes in July.
LT Lorance sought clarification as to what exactly Afghan in the Lead meant. The Company Commander replied with if the Afghans dont want to patrol, we dont patrol. This guidance was vague. US Generals should have very clearly specified the modification, if any, to the current rules of engagement. Many platoons simply stopped patrolling, which set the stage for the Taliban to retake the territory. When the US is absent, there is a power vacuum. LT Lorance knew that in order to protect his men, his platoon must continue to patrol often.
What kind of war are we fighting? It would seem this guy is worthy of a medal, not a court-martial. Taking a soldier to task for patrolling an area and responding the intelligence seems like a smart thing to do. If this is the sort of situation our soldiers are in, then it is time for our troops to come home.
Afghanistan is just another Korea and Vietnam.
Its a limited war, a police action.
A higher tech, lower casualty version of Korea and Vietnam.
Its ironic to realize that the supply lines for both sides in this war run through the same country, Pakistan.
The Taliban of Afghanistan who enabled Bin Laden were the creation of the Pakistani intelligence agency the ISI.
They run war like they run healthcare.
Reminds me of Breaker Morant and Rule 303. That’s a hell of a predicament our troops are faced with. Shameful.
Afghanistan is the "Just" War we should be fighting to win, not Iraq"
"If you are attacked by the Taliban, you can engage and destroy them, period."
Liar In Chief Obama keeps on keepin' on. Our troops pay the price.
I read “Lone Survivor” by Marcus Lutrell. He said that the reason everyone in his team got killed but him was largely because they didn’t shoot a shepherd that they knew would alert the enemy. They were afraid of repercussions from the media if it was found out. His team essentially died because of political correctness.
“First you must fix the Obamacare website!”
What is this? Obamacare version of ROE.
Soldiers should be able to shoot at anything THEY deem hostile. They should not fear JAG lawyers more than they fear the enemy.
“They run war like they run healthcare.”
From the same golf course, no less ...
We might as well SURRENDER at this point!
Thanks for that summary. I was only somewhat familiar with this incident. It just rips my heart out when I hear of this sort of nonsense. War is not supposed to be kind and gentle. It is supposed to be brutal. Only then does war become so undesirable that it is avoided at all cost. The other side does not “play nice”, so why should we at the cost of our valuable troops. I am not excusing atrocities, as we are better than that. However, when a reasonable threat is encountered, troops should be given the latitude to neutralize the threat without the fear of prosecution.
I would hope the next president would order his conviction tossed out, reinstate him, and restore all back pay. I have nothing but the highest respect for the troops on the battlefield. Senior leadership? Not so much.
By the way, I love your tagline.
I heard his interview with Glenn Beck on his radio program a few years back. He said they decided it would be better to take on a numerically superior Taliban force than take their chances in an American courtroom. I was stunned that they would even have to make a choice like that. What a ringing endorsement to the quality of senior leadership in this country. What the hell has happened? (Yes, that is rhetorical.)
Military deals with foreigners, who Obama cares about more than Americans.
Fight to win or don’t fight.
There are many young who still want to fight for our freedom. Once they get in and serve, however, especially under this administration, their motivation is crushed, pulverized, and flushed.
And then there are the commanding officers who are being dismissed. This list was posted at Rules of Engagement on FB
CM) Commanding Generals fired:
General John R. Allen-U.S. Marines Commander International Security Assistance Force [ISAF] (Nov 2012)
Major General Ralph Baker (2 Star)-U.S. Army Commander of the Combined Joint Task Force Horn in Africa (April 2013)
Major General Michael Carey (2 Star)-U.S. Air Force Commander of the 20th US Air Force in charge of 9,600 people and 450 Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (Oct 2013)
Colonel James Christmas-U.S. Marines Commander 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit & Commander Special-Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force Crisis Response Unit (July 2013)
Major General Peter Fuller-U.S. Army Commander in Afghanistan (May 2011)
Major General Charles M.M. Gurganus-U.S. Marine Corps Regional Commander of SW and I Marine Expeditionary Force in Afghanistan (Oct 2013)
General Carter F. Ham-U.S. Army African Command (Oct 2013)
Lieutenant General David H. Huntoon (3 Star), Jr.-U.S. Army 58th Superintendent of the US Military Academy at West Point, NY (2013)
Command Sergeant Major Don B Jordan-U.S. Army 143rd Expeditionary Sustainment Command (suspended Oct 2013)
General James Mattis-U.S. Marines Chief of CentCom (May 2013)
Colonel Daren Margolin-U.S. Marine in charge of Quanticos Security Battalion (Oct 2013)
General Stanley McChrystal-U.S. Army Commander Afghanistan (June 2010)
General David D. McKiernan-U.S. Army Commander Afghanistan (2009)
General David Petraeus-Director of CIA from September 2011 to November 2012 & U.S. Army Commander International Security Assistance Force [ISAF] and Commander U.S. Forces Afghanistan [USFOR-A] (Nov 2012)
Brigadier General Bryan Roberts-U.S. Army Commander 2nd Brigade (May 2013)
Major General Gregg A. Sturdevant-U.S. Marine Corps Director of Strategic Planning and Policy for the U.S. Pacific Command & Commander of Aviation Wing at Camp Bastion, Afghanistan (Sept 2013)
Colonel Eric Tilley-U.S. Army Commander of Garrison Japan (Nov 2013)
Brigadier General Bryan Wampler-U.S. Army Commanding General of 143rd Expeditionary Sustainment Command of the 1st Theater Sustainment Command [TSC] (suspended Oct 2013)
Commanding Admirals fired:
Rear Admiral Charles Gaouette-U.S. Navy Commander John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Group Three (Oct 2012)
Vice Admiral Tim Giardina(3 Star, demoted to 2 Star)-U.S. Navy Deputy Commander of the US Strategic Command, Commander of the Submarine Group Trident, Submarine Group 9 and Submarine Group 10 (Oct 2013)
Naval Officers fired: (All in 2011)
Captain David Geisler-U.S. Navy Commander Task Force 53 in Bahrain (Oct 2011)
Commander Laredo Bell-U.S. Navy Commander Naval Support Activity Saratoga Springs, NY (Aug 2011)
Lieutenant Commander Kurt Boenisch-Executive Officer amphibious transport dock Ponce (Apr 2011)
Commander Nathan Borchers-U.S. Navy Commander destroyer Stout (Mar 2011)
Commander Robert Brown-U.S. Navy Commander Beachmaster Unit 2 Fort Story, VA (Aug 2011)
Commander Andrew Crowe-Executive Officer Navy Region Center Singapore (Apr 2011)
Captain Robert Gamberg-Executive Officer carrier Dwight D. Eisenhower (Jun 2011)
Captain Rex Guinn-U.S. Navy Commander Navy Legal Service office Japan (Feb 2011)
Commander Kevin Harms- U.S. Navy Commander Strike Fighter Squadron 137 aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln (Mar 2011)
Lieutenant Commander Martin Holguin-U.S. Navy Commander mine countermeasures Fearless (Oct 2011)
Captain Owen Honors-U.S. Navy Commander aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (Jan 2011)
Captain Donald Hornbeck-U.S. Navy Commander Destroyer Squadron 1 San Diego (Apr 2011)
Rear Admiral Ron Horton-U.S. Navy Commander Logistics Group, Western Pacific (Mar 2011)
Commander Etta Jones-U.S. Navy Commander amphibious transport dock Ponce (Apr 2011)
Commander Ralph Jones-Executive Officer amphibious transport dock Green Bay (Jul 2011)
Commander Jonathan Jackson-U.S. Navy Commander Electronic Attack Squadron 134, deployed aboard carrier Carl Vinson (Dec 2011)
Captain Eric Merrill-U.S. Navy Commander submarine Emory S. Land (Jul 2011)
Captain William Mosk-U.S. Navy Commander Naval Station Rota, U.S. Navy Commander Naval Activities Spain (Apr 2011)
Commander Timothy Murphy-U.S. Navy Commander Electronic Attack Squadron 129 at Naval Air Station Whidbey Island, WA (Apr 2011)
Commander Joseph Nosse-U.S. Navy Commander ballistic-missile submarine Kentucky (Oct 2011)
Commander Mark Olson-U.S. Navy Commander destroyer The Sullivans FL (Sep 2011)
Commander John Pethel-Executive Officer amphibious transport dock New York (Dec 2011)
Commander Karl Pugh-U.S. Navy Commander Electronic Attack Squadron 141 Whidbey Island, WA (Jul 2011)
Commander Jason Strength-U.S. Navy Commander of Navy Recruiting District Nashville, TN (Jul 2011)
Captain Greg Thomas-U.S. Navy Commander Norfolk Naval Shipyard (May 2011)
Commander Mike Varney-U.S. Navy Commander attack submarine Connecticut (Jun 2011)
Commander Jay Wylie-U.S. Navy Commander destroyer Momsen (Apr 2011)
Naval Officers fired: (All in 2012)
Commander Alan C. Aber-Executive Officer Helicopter Maritime Strike Squadron 71 (July 2012)
Commander Derick Armstrong- U.S. Navy Commander missile destroyer USS The Sullivans (May 2012)
Commander Martin Arriola- U.S. Navy Commander destroyer USS Porter (Aug 2012)
Captain Antonio Cardoso- U.S. Navy Commander Training Support Center San Diego (Sep 2012)
Captain James CoBell- U.S. Navy Commander Oceana Naval Air Stations Fleet Readiness Center Mid-Atlantic (Sep 2012)
Captain Joseph E. Darlak- U.S. Navy Commander frigate USS Vandegrift (Nov 2012)
Captain Daniel Dusek-U.S. Navy Commander USS Bonhomme
Commander David Faught-Executive Officer destroyer Chung-Hoon (Sep 2012)
Commander Franklin Fernandez- U.S. Navy Commander Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 24 (Aug 2012)
Commander Ray Hartman- U.S. Navy Commander Amphibious dock-landing ship Fort McHenry (Nov 2012)
Commander Shelly Hakspiel-Executive Officer Navy Drug Screening Lab San Diego (May 2012)
Commander Jon Haydel- U.S. Navy Commander USS San Diego (Mar 2012)
Commander Diego Hernandez- U.S. Navy Commander ballistic-missile submarine USS Wyoming (Feb 2012)
Commander Lee Hoey- U.S. Navy Commander Drug Screening Laboratory, San Diego (May 2012)
Commander Ivan Jimenez-Executive Officer frigate Vandegrift (Nov 2012)
Commander Dennis Klein- U.S. Navy Commander submarine USS Columbia (May 2012)
Captain Chuck Litchfield- U.S. Navy Commander assault ship USS Essex (Jun 2012)
Captain Marcia Kim Lyons- U.S. Navy Commander Naval Health Clinic New England (Apr 2012)
Captain Robert Marin- U.S. Navy Commander cruiser USS Cowpens (Feb 2012)
Captain Sean McDonell- U.S. Navy Commander Seabee reserve unit Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14 FL (Nov 2012)
Commander Corrine Parker- U.S. Navy Commander Fleet Logistics Support Squadron 1 (Apr 2012)
Captain Liza Raimondo- U.S. Navy Commander Naval Health Clinic Patuxent River, MD (Jun 2012)
Captain Jeffrey Riedel- Program manager, Littoral Combat Ship program (Jan 2012)
Commander Sara Santoski- U.S. Navy Commander Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron 15 (Sep 2012)
Commander Kyle G. Strudthoff-Executive Officer Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron 25 (Sep 2012)
Commander Sheryl Tannahill- U.S. Navy Commander Navy Operational Support Center [NOSC] Nashville, TN (Sep 2012)
Commander Michael Ward- U.S. Navy Commander submarine USS Pittsburgh (Aug 2012)
Captain Michael Wiegand- U.S. Navy Commander Southwest Regional Maintenance Center (Nov 2012)
Captain Ted Williams- U.S. Navy Commander amphibious command ship Mount Whitney (Nov 2012)
Commander Jeffrey Wissel- U.S. Navy Commander of Fleet Air Reconnaissance Squadron 1 (Feb 2012)
Naval Officers fired: (All in 2013)
Lieutenant Commander Lauren Allen-Executive Officer submarine Jacksonville (Feb 2013)
Reserve Captain Jay Bowman-U.S. Navy Commander Navy Operational Support Center [NOSC] Fort Dix, NJ (Mar 2013)
Captain William Cogar-U.S. Navy Commander hospital ship Mercys medical treatment facility (Sept 2013)
Commander Steve Fuller-Executive Officer frigate Kauffman (Mar 2013)
Captain Shawn Hendricks-Program Manager for naval enterprise IT networks (June 2013)
Captain David Hunter-U.S. Navy Commander of Maritime Expeditionary Security Squadron 12 & Coastal Riverine Group 2 (Feb 2013)
Captain Eric Johnson-U.S. Navy Chief of Military Entrance Processing Command at Great Lakes Naval Training Center, IL (2013)
Captain Devon Jones-U.S. Navy Commander Naval Air Facility El Centro, CA (July 2013)
Captain Kevin Knoop-U.S. Navy Commander hospital ship Comforts medical treatment facility (Aug 2013)
Lieutenant Commander Jack ONeill-U.S. Navy Commander Operational Support Center Rock Island, IL (Mar 2013)
Commander Allen Maestas-Executive Officer Beachmaster Unit 1 (May 2013)
Commander Luis Molina-U.S. Navy Commander submarine Pasadena (Jan 2013)
Commander James Pickens-Executive Officer frigate Gary (Feb 2013)
Lieutenant Commander Mark Rice-U.S. Navy Commander Mine Countermeasures ship Guardian (Apr 2013)
Commander Michael Runkle-U.S. Navy Commander of Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit 2 (May 2013)
Commander Jason Stapleton-Executive Office Patrol Squadron 4 in Hawaii (Mar 2013)
Commander Nathan Sukols-U.S. Navy Commander submarine Jacksonville (Feb 2013)
Lieutenant Daniel Tyler-Executive Officer Mine Countermeasures ship Guardian (Apr 2013)
Commander Edward White-U.S. Navy Commander Strike Fighter Squadron 106 (Aug 2013)
Captain Jeffrey Winter-U.S. Navy Commander of Carrier Air Wing 17 (Sept 2013)
Commander Thomas Winter-U.S. Navy Commander submarine Montpelier (Jan 2013)
Commander Corey Wofford- U.S. Navy Commander frigate Kauffman (Feb 2013)
157 [ONE HUNDRED FIFTY-SEVEN] Air Force majors forced into early terminations, no retirement or benefits. All 157 had been twice passed over for promotion and were within six years of retirement. Too many to list!
Publicly, none, but why are so many being dismissed? Please see my post #33
This is very simple. If we’re not at war, using rules of war, then our _warriors_ must not be there.
This whole operation has become foreign aid for the enemy and _rare_ friend in the Pieceful religious nations.
“Publicly, none, but why are so many being dismissed? Please see my post #33”
I read #33. With a list that long, why aren’t a few speaking out loudly? Who is holding what over them?
Where did you get this list? My son joined the Marines and is scheduled to start boot camp in January.
The New ROE are designed for deliberate genocide of mostly white, young American men.
Any other deaths are collateral damage.
Pretty soon the ROE will require all troops to convert to Islam upon contact with the enemy.
From the Rules of Engagement facebook page.
New ROE-after you’re killed you can fight back.
U.S. forces shall not enter Afghan homes for the purposes of military operations, except under extraordinary circumstances involving urgent risk to life and limb of U.S. nationals,
Bull$@$t, dear leader.
I have heard that over 200 senior officers, including those of flag status have either been fired...Or been forced to retire since this administration took over...
My nephew is due to deploy to he suck in March...As a new E-4 he has some additional responsibilities and I am extremely confident in him and his unit and officers...
We talk about the stuff we can on the phone, but these new ROE’s concern me, yet i’m sure we’ll talk about them when he visits next month...
This, I believe, will be the last major deployment of Marines to Afghanistan...
But who knows...I knew tjis deployment would have dynamics that would make these guys a bit more exposed to scrutiny, politically and socially from the Afghan people...
We’ll just have to hope their exposure is limited and adjusted for the increase in vunerabilities...
Not quite. We won .... and Barack Obama nullified our victory, threw it away, out of vindictive hatred of America and our too-pale, too-stale people </off Hillary rant>.
He's in a hurry to realize the Post-American America, brown and alien and Marxist-Leninist and utterly unlike the People of the United States.
As America's _Resident cuts and runs like a girl, to nullify the accomplishments of his predecessor, all the Afghans must now adjust.
Since we're leaving anyway, all the Afghans will come to the airport, shoot at the airplanes as they fly away, and then lie to their grandchildren that they drove us off just as the great Bin Laden had foretold them, after he killed our people in droves in New York for ignoring the Call to Faith.
</off enemy b.s.>
Well, I see my nephews next deployment to be filled with a lot of sh!t to deal with, which makes their proximity to the bad people more dangerous...
I hope the worst doesn’t happen to him or his squadmates, some of whom I have met over the last year...
I cannot guarantee my personal reaction would be deemed reasonable, or socially acceptable...
I used to believe being on the friont lines was a noble thing to do, because you had manythings working for you, first and foremost God...Second, the guys next to you, no matter the personal differences, when the sh!y hit the fan, all that went away and you did your job...
And finally, you had a good feeling that if you did get hurt or killed, your country, and your government had your back...
I feel that third thing has been watered down (by the body politic) to a point where it is no longer something you (as a service member)can have a great deal of confidence in...