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In a flap over flags: If Scotland goes it alone, what flag does the rest of the UK wave?
Daily Mail (UK) ^ | 5th December 2013 | Jim Norton

Posted on 12/05/2013 2:49:25 PM PST by naturalman1975

After nearly 400 years of symbolising four nations united in one flag, what would the Union Flag look like without the blue and white of the Saltire?

The question is being posed by flag experts after a poll found nearly 65 per cent were in favour of changing the flag if Scotland votes Yes to independence.

The vexillologists, as they are known, have come up with designs that could replace the familiar red, white and blue flag.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: flag; flags; scotland; unitedkingdom
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If Scotland does choose to leave the United Kingdom (and I hope they don't), it would seem to me only sensible to remove the St Andrew's flag from the Union Flag.

I actually think the first design in the article is appropriate in that situation - while the St David's flag is a fairly recent invention, the association of gold and black with St David is much older, and the incorporation (finally) of Welsh symbolism alongside that of England and Ireland would seem to me appropriate - and a deliberate decision of a design that incorporates the patron Saints of England, Wales, and Ireland, would be an reassertion of Britain's historically Christian identity at a time when this identity is fading.

From an aesthetic point of view, I don't like the design much, but there's more important issues than the aesthetics.

1 posted on 12/05/2013 2:49:25 PM PST by naturalman1975
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To: naturalman1975
the UK allows Scotland to vote for independence

I demand the socialist USA grant us in Louisiana the vote for independence

2 posted on 12/05/2013 2:52:46 PM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: naturalman1975

Of course I like the really girly one, with the circle and the flowers and all, but honestly if those are the choices I’d stick with what they have.


3 posted on 12/05/2013 2:53:17 PM PST by jocon307
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To: naturalman1975

well I guess the cross of St Andrew will be removed from the Union Jack..

Leaving the red and white of St George and the other one...used to know it...


4 posted on 12/05/2013 2:55:30 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

St Patrick’s - symbolising Northern Ireland.


5 posted on 12/05/2013 2:56:34 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: Democrat_media

They aren’t thinking far enough ahead....they may as well add a star and crescent now.


6 posted on 12/05/2013 2:57:28 PM PST by JoeDetweiler
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To: naturalman1975

I’d say the Red Cross of St. George on White Field as the Kingdom did before the Union, but that would be too Christian and the Brits are not really a Christian nation anymore.


7 posted on 12/05/2013 2:58:28 PM PST by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it getting so hot?)
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To: Democrat_media

Same here for Texas.
If we want it we will have to claim it the old fashioned way though.
A vote won’t do, as the regime needs our money and resources far too badly to allow us actual self government.


8 posted on 12/05/2013 2:59:38 PM PST by Clump ( the tree of liberty is withering like a stricken fig tree)
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To: naturalman1975
Cute: Why America Must Say No to Scotland’s Independence From Great Britain


9 posted on 12/05/2013 2:59:51 PM PST by Theoria (Obama lied. My health care died.)
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To: naturalman1975

Sad in a way. Hundreds of years of history, and the Empire goes down to the EU.


10 posted on 12/05/2013 3:00:19 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: naturalman1975
Assuming England would still have the Welsh to kick around looks extremely arrogant, and very ... well ... British.

If Scotland becomes independent, why wouldn't Wales follow suit?

11 posted on 12/05/2013 3:01:28 PM PST by x
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To: Democrat_media
the UK allows Scotland to vote for independence
I demand the socialist USA grant us in Louisiana the vote for independence


Let's make it a Luoisiana “unpurchase” and we'll join you!
12 posted on 12/05/2013 3:02:18 PM PST by Idaho_Cowboy (Ride for the Brand. Joshua 24:15)
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To: jocon307
Of course I like the really girly one, with the circle and the flowers and all, but honestly if those are the choices I’d stick with what they have.

But is that appropriate?

That's the nub of the problem. The white Saltire Cross on a blue field is the symbol of the Patron Saint of Scotland, and was added to the red cross on white St George flag of England specifically to signify the Union of the two nations in 1707 (the union had occurred in 1701). In 1801, the red saltire cross of St Patrick was added to signify Ireland being incorporated into the Union.

If Scotland leaves the union, leaving the symbol of Scotland on the flag would go against its previous history.

They could go to a flag that simply removed the blue field, but any change creates an opportunity to acknowledge Wales as well - currently suggestions to do so have tended to be dismissed as making the flag look too complex.

13 posted on 12/05/2013 3:03:05 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: naturalman1975

My vote goes for the one that looks most like the Union Jack, with just the blue replaced by black.


14 posted on 12/05/2013 3:04:56 PM PST by expat2
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To: naturalman1975

Should we not consult Scottish law for the answer to this one?


15 posted on 12/05/2013 3:06:58 PM PST by fhayek
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To: x

Wales has as much right to independence as Scotland - but at the moment, shows little sign of wanting independence at the moment. It’s a voluntary union nowadays - and incorporating Welsh symbolism into the Union Flag would symbolise that it is an equal part of that voluntary union.


16 posted on 12/05/2013 3:09:03 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: fhayek

No, because the question would be a question for the Parliament of the United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Scots law would not be relevant.

Courtesy might suggest some degree of consultation, but there’s no relevant legal issue.


17 posted on 12/05/2013 3:11:30 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: expat2

That would work as well - again, replacing the recognition of Scotland, with symbolism drawn from Wales.


18 posted on 12/05/2013 3:12:54 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: JoeDetweiler


19 posted on 12/05/2013 3:13:20 PM PST by carriage_hill (Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading.)
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To: naturalman1975
Scots law would not be relevant.

Arlen Sphincter would be rolling over in his grave.

20 posted on 12/05/2013 3:13:48 PM PST by dfwgator (Fire Muschamp. Go Michigan State!)
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To: Little Ray
I’d say the Red Cross of St. George on White Field as the Kingdom did before the Union, but that would be too Christian and the Brits are not really a Christian nation anymore.

But that would mean removing the recognition of Northern Ireland from the flag (which is also a Christian symbol), and treating an English flag as if it was a British flag, which would diminish its value as a flag for those cases where England is a separate entity from the United Kingdom.

21 posted on 12/05/2013 3:15:04 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: naturalman1975

Bah! Change the blue to green for Wales and islam.


22 posted on 12/05/2013 3:15:35 PM PST by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: jocon307

Les Frogs have dibs on the white one........


23 posted on 12/05/2013 3:16:04 PM PST by njslim (St)
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To: naturalman1975

I always liked that the US flag had the same colors as Britain’s. And yes, Wales should be recognized.

Did Canada change it’s flag?

I’m thinking of that old song “The Thistle, Shamrock, Rose Entwine the Maple Leaf Forever” (something like that!).

My mother told me that used to be Canada’s national anthem but they changed it because it left out the French.

I was never sure if the flag actually looked the way it is described in the song.

Oh well, I am a conservative, I don’t ever want anything to change, but change is part of life.

I love flags, I understand why it might need to change. But I really did not like those pink and black ones, nor that kind of multi-striped thing. They’ll have to think long and hard about it.

Do you think if Scotland gets independence that they’ll get their act together and stop being a nation on the dole? They used to be amoung the most industrious people, I think they’re a wreck now. Can they change that? I hope so.

I know I rambled on and on in this post!


24 posted on 12/05/2013 3:17:28 PM PST by jocon307
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To: naturalman1975

The UK never enacted a Flag Act. It would cost too much to change the design and I think they’ll keep it for historic reasons.

And many countries associated with the former British Empire, Australia and New Zealand have the Union Jack in the upper right hand canton - as did Canada prior to 1964 when it flew the Canadian Red Ensign as its national flag.

Subnational units - Hawaii and the Canadian provinces of Manitoba and Ontario have the Union Jack in the upper right hand canton of their flags. Its a classic design and is not going to ever be altered.


25 posted on 12/05/2013 3:17:45 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Idaho_Cowboy

what state are you in , Idaho?


26 posted on 12/05/2013 3:19:43 PM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: njslim

(laughing with French accent!)


27 posted on 12/05/2013 3:21:33 PM PST by jocon307
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To: x

Why would they want to follow Scotland? Scotland as an independent nation is barely viable. Wales would be a joke, unless it became some sort of Swiss-style tax haven. It’s just too small with little in the way of natural wealth. At least the Scots can sue for North Sea oil and gas etc.

Also, they don’t have as much of an ideological feud with London. The government of the UK usually represents where Wales is politically at the period in time, whereas unless its full blown commie 100% of the time, it doesn’t represent Scotland. Though Wales has a Labour bent, its not as extreme as Scotland. Both Wales and Northern Ireland are content to remain united with England for the time being it seems.

Meanwhile, if the Scots vote for what Salmond is selling they’ll actually be less independent. They want to keep the currency, but give up any say in the administration of the money supply.

Whatever they do, the entire island is screwed. Islam left and right, political correctness at insane levels, mass exodus of native population, debt out of control, NHS bankrupt. A little like us, Britain lives off its good name and good name alone. Nothing beyond that.


28 posted on 12/05/2013 3:22:32 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: jocon307

Canada has two national anthems - O Canada - in French and English though they are not literal translations of the other.

The one written in 1908 by Sir Robert Weir displaced all the others in English Canada. O Canada was not made official until 1980.


29 posted on 12/05/2013 3:24:19 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
The UK never enacted a Flag Act. It would cost too much to change the design and I think they’ll keep it for historic reasons.

The cost issue can be addressed easily enough by simply saying that flags will be replaced only as they need to be replaced.

Legally, the mechanism for changing the Flag is a proclamation by the Monarch.

And many countries associated with the former British Empire, Australia and New Zealand have the Union Jack in the upper right hand canton - as did Canada prior to 1964 when it flew the Canadian Red Ensign as its national flag.

Yes, and they could retain it, because it symbolises their historic link to the nation that created their nations. Their flags would not change to reflect a change in the Union Flag because the presence of the Union Flag does not reflect a current legal link, only an historical one.

Subnational units - Hawaii and the Canadian provinces of Manitoba and Ontario have the Union Jack in the upper right hand canton of their flags. Its a classic design and is not going to ever be altered.

So do all the Australian states, but again, that's a reference to their history, and there would be no reason to change that reference to their history.

30 posted on 12/05/2013 3:26:32 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: naturalman1975

The Confederate flag as well as a lot of state flags such as Alabama and Florida all came from the Cross of St. Andrew.


31 posted on 12/05/2013 3:32:43 PM PST by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: naturalman1975

I know, I know. I was making a snarky, and completely irrelevant reference to something Arlen Specter once said.


32 posted on 12/05/2013 3:32:46 PM PST by fhayek
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Brothers and Sisters are Natural Enemies
Like Englishmen and Scots,
or Welshmen and Scots
or Japanese and Scots
or Scots and other Scots
Damn Scots!
They ruined Scotland!!


33 posted on 12/05/2013 3:38:42 PM PST by dsrtsage (One half of all people have below average IQ. In the US the number is 54%)
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To: fhayek

I was making a snarky, and completely irrelevant reference to something Arlen Specter once said.


Arlen Specter — of the “magic bullet” and “magic cigar” fame?


34 posted on 12/05/2013 3:41:15 PM PST by OwenKellogg (Fundamental transformation sucks.)
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To: jocon307
I always liked that the US flag had the same colors as Britain’s. And yes, Wales should be recognized.

Did Canada change it’s flag?

Somewhat complicated, that question. The current Canadian flag dates from 1965. In a strict legal sense, Canada did not have a national flag prior to that date. There was a Canadian Red Ensign (with the Union Flag in the corner and the Coat of Arms of Canada in the fly on a red field) that was commonly used to represent Canada, but it did not have the status of a national flag (unlike the other Dominions of Australia and New Zealand which had full legal status in law).

My mother told me that used to be Canada’s national anthem but they changed it because it left out the French.

It was never officially Canada's National Anthem, but in the days when 'God Save the King/Queen' was the anthem of all the British Empire, it was one of the songs that was sometimes used to differentiate Canada when a separate anthem was needed - but so was "O, Canada." "O, Canada" basically won when King Edward VIII stood at attention for it, as he would have for "God Save the King" when dedicating a Canadian war memorial in 1936, and this act was repeated by his brother in 1939. It officially became the Canadian National Anthem in 1980, although the Canadian government had announced it as their choice in 1967.

I love flags, I understand why it might need to change. But I really did not like those pink and black ones, nor that kind of multi-striped thing. They’ll have to think long and hard about it.

That's one reason I like the first design better than the others. It's no more complex than the existing one - and the colours have meaning.

Do you think if Scotland gets independence that they’ll get their act together and stop being a nation on the dole? They used to be amoung the most industrious people, I think they’re a wreck now. Can they change that? I hope so.

I don't know. If independence really lead to a resurgence in national pride, that would be a good thing - but I fear it will just lead them further down the path to unified Europe than anything else.

35 posted on 12/05/2013 3:42:53 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: Clump

good luck with the constitutional amendment needed for legal secession.

Of course the US could just sell y’all back to Mexico, since we bought Texas (and California) from Mexico.


36 posted on 12/05/2013 3:42:56 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: naturalman1975

by what name will this new entity be called?

England Wales and Ulster.

United Kingdom of Great Britain minus Scotland
and Ireland minus the Republican parts.

or something else?


37 posted on 12/05/2013 3:48:34 PM PST by RockyTx
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To: Democrat_media

Ditto and add Alabama to that list.


38 posted on 12/05/2013 3:48:47 PM PST by mtnwmn (Liberalism leads to Socialism)
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To: RockyTx

Most likely - “The United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.”


39 posted on 12/05/2013 3:50:27 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: naturalman1975
If Scotland reclaims independence remove St Andrews Cross

Wales et al. are a separate concern.

40 posted on 12/05/2013 3:50:50 PM PST by Ray76
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To: Ray76
They're being annexed by Iceland?
41 posted on 12/05/2013 3:52:06 PM PST by x
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To: Ray76

But Northern Ireland is already acknowledge in the existing flag. That’s the primary reason for acknowledging Wales as well.


42 posted on 12/05/2013 3:53:24 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: x

Good catch! I checked though, the cross on Iceland’s flag is not centered but about a third in from the left side.


43 posted on 12/05/2013 3:53:50 PM PST by Ray76
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To: Ray76

The Iceland issue hadn’t occurred to me either (it should have) but your design also removes the Cross of St Patrick, not just the cross of St Andrew - and it leaves the blue field which comes from the St Andrew flag as well.


44 posted on 12/05/2013 3:56:59 PM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: naturalman1975

For Ulster add a red ‘x’ without any white border, for Wales... well they’re not on the current UK flag (at least I don’t think so).


45 posted on 12/05/2013 3:59:11 PM PST by Ray76
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To: naturalman1975

I think that was a poke at Arlen Specter. :-)


46 posted on 12/05/2013 4:00:50 PM PST by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: naturalman1975

Sorry, I can’t imagine a change in the old Union flag. Tell the Scots, “We’re keeping it. Don’t like it? Rejoin us and vote it out. Then you can vote to leave again”.


47 posted on 12/05/2013 4:03:49 PM PST by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: naturalman1975

Another idea would be to lose the white of Scotland changing it to yellow for Wales, and keep the red ‘x’ for Northern Ireland. That should make everyone happy.


48 posted on 12/05/2013 4:09:26 PM PST by Ray76
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To: Ray76

clarification:

change the white ‘x’ for Scotland to a yellow ‘x’ for Wales, keeping the red ‘x’ for Northern Ireland


49 posted on 12/05/2013 4:10:58 PM PST by Ray76
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To: jocon307
"Do you think if Scotland gets independence that they’ll get their act together and stop being a nation on the dole?"

They'll probably have to. I'm sure England will retain control of whatever is left of the wealth of Empire, which probably isn't much anyway as they've been squandering it for the last 70 years pretending that Socialism works. /rant

50 posted on 12/05/2013 4:12:14 PM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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