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Beware of Precious Metal Bamboozlement
Townhall.com ^ | December 7, 2013 | Bill Tatro

Posted on 12/07/2013 9:10:46 AM PST by Kaslin

How many times have parents said to their children, “Because I said so.” Contemporary parenting dictates rationalizing with your child, giving them explanations for everything, and of course being a buddy. But even the most modern of parenting techniques will undoubtedly run into roadblocks, ultimately leading a frustrated parent to utter that infamous justification, “Because I said so.”

And speaking of notorious rationalizations, as the world loses confidence in fiat currency (paper money), and the “inflationistas” of the world continue to pound the drum in favor of alternative currencies (specifically precious metals), more and more typical investment portfolios will experience an increase in both gold and silver positions.

There are basically two ways to purchases precious metals, either via paper (ETFs, mutual funds, and UITs) or through the acquisition of kilobars and coins. And more specifically as it relates to gold, as it becomes increasingly apparent that paper gold doesn’t satisfy the actual ability to be utilized as a currency, and as questions arise pertaining to the concern of bona fide gold actually backing up the ETFs, mutual funds, and UITs, more and more investors will purchase the actual hard metal. And therein lies the rub.

How many times have you given a $50 or $100 bill to a cashier who either marks the bill or holds it up to the light in order to verify its authenticity? However, when you purchase a gold coin for well over $1,000, can you perform the same test of legitimacy? In fact, can anyone perform a test in order to make sure that what you’re buying is actually real? The answer is yes and no.

With gold coins purchased directly from a mint, and not previously owned, you can almost be 100% sure that the coins are genuine. On the other hand, gold coins that have been purchased through dealers, or coins that were previously owned by someone else, definitely run the risk of being tampered with beforehand. The standard test administered by the mints of the world (and yes, they are very concerned) is to verify the coin’s density. Yet, I’m sorry to say that tungsten has the same density as gold, thus making the existence of tungsten virtually undetectable. Short of melting, cutting, or destroying the kilobar or coin, current tests cannot accurately and consistently differentiate gold from tungsten.

International counterfeiters are fully aware of this fact, and over the past few years, they’ve been ramping up their efforts in order to flood the markets with counterfeit pieces. The top gold depositories, from London to Ottawa and from Pretoria to New York, are fully aware of this critical problem that’s about to engulf the whole world.

Thus, if you own gold, my recommendation is to contact your dealer immediately and inquire how they know for sure that what they sold you is actually real. If they answer, “Because I said so,” then you should be very concerned, extremely worried, and then incredibly afraid.

After all, the mints of the world are absolutely terrified and you should feel likewise.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: gold; tungsten
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Isn't silver stamped 99.5?
1 posted on 12/07/2013 9:10:46 AM PST by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

Although gold and tungsten have similar densities the resistance to an electric current are different enough to be measured reliably and accurately.


2 posted on 12/07/2013 9:24:23 AM PST by BipolarBob
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To: BipolarBob

But gold plated tungsten would have the conductivity of gold as long as it has sufficient thickness.


3 posted on 12/07/2013 9:37:35 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Kaslin

Bullion silver, including certain coins, is.

Most coins minted for circulation are much less.

But then most coins minted for circulation — especially those which are well worn — are not likely to be fakes.


4 posted on 12/07/2013 9:39:25 AM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Kaslin

5 posted on 12/07/2013 9:44:54 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Last Obamacare Promise: "If You Like Your Eternal Soul, You Can Keep It.")
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To: BipolarBob

Any half competent freshman chemistry student could measure density and tell the difference between gold and tungsten.


6 posted on 12/07/2013 9:45:49 AM PST by stormer
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To: Kaslin
There's even a company in China that will sell you gold-plated tungsten bars for “souvenir” purposes. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-tungsten-gold-2012-9

7 posted on 12/07/2013 9:49:03 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: lepton

“But gold plated tungsten would have the conductivity of gold as long as it has sufficient thickness.”

This is not true...


8 posted on 12/07/2013 9:53:29 AM PST by babygene ( .)
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To: babygene; lepton

“But gold plated tungsten would have the conductivity of gold as long as it has sufficient thickness.”

This is not true...

bg, I'm surprised. Will you please elaborate?

9 posted on 12/07/2013 9:58:18 AM PST by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it?)
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To: stormer

“Any half competent freshman chemistry student could measure density and tell the difference between gold and tungsten.”

You think? I believe that is false...


10 posted on 12/07/2013 9:59:36 AM PST by babygene ( .)
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To: stormer
"Any half competent freshman chemistry student could measure density and tell the difference between gold and tungsten."

Tungsten is 0.36% less dense than gold. If a piece was made up of 1/2 each, the difference between that and a pure gold piece would be 0.18% in density.

Just curious: are you suggesting that one could measure the volume and weight and detect the difference?

11 posted on 12/07/2013 10:03:55 AM PST by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it?)
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To: Kaslin

Provident Metals and Apmex are very reputable dealers. Sealed monster boxes are the way to go.


12 posted on 12/07/2013 10:09:01 AM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: MV=PY

“bg, I’m surprised. Will you please elaborate?”

When current flows through a material, with direct current it flows through the entire material. So if you had a plated coin, the outside material would have a resistivity and the inside would have a different resistivity.

ie; resistors in parallel. The equation is R total = R1 (times) R2, (divided by) R1 plus R2


13 posted on 12/07/2013 10:15:22 AM PST by babygene ( .)
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To: babygene; stormer
“Any half competent freshman chemistry student could measure density and tell the difference between gold and tungsten.”

You think? I believe that is false...

You're most like correct, babygene. Density = mass / volume. Here are typical density values.

Gold = 19.32 g/mL
Tungsten = 19.35 g/mL

So a gold-coated tungsten bar would have a density a bit below 19.35. Perhaps it would be 19.34.

A chemist just might catch that if he had a VERY precise massing device and a VERY precise volume device. Typical high school lab devices would not catch that small a difference.

And to make it even more confusing, not all scientists will agree on those given densities! There are fluctuations due to temperature, etc. Bottom line, forget density as a test here.

14 posted on 12/07/2013 10:18:24 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: All

This has been addressed in the past. Here is an article about fake gold and how it is detected:
http://www.perthmintbullion.com/us/blog/blog/12-03-26/Fake_Bars_-_The_Facts.aspx


15 posted on 12/07/2013 10:19:32 AM PST by MCF
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To: babygene

Understood.

I didn’t think of parallel resistors because of the “envelope” configuration.

Thank you very much!


16 posted on 12/07/2013 10:25:01 AM PST by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it?)
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To: Kaslin

Gold is and has always been a store of value. Not the greatest currency.

Boxes of 7.56, 12 ga and/or 45 ACP will be better “currency” in a SHTF scenario. Even 223 will be a great barter tool.

Any daily-use item will do. Razors, tampons toothpaste, coffee, chocolate, canned meat etc . . . Just look at post WWII Europe. People taking the train with silver and gold tableware into the country to trade for food.
Look into the trading value of cooking oil in any currency challenged economy. When you need to eat and protect your family, gold bars are the last thing you need to worry about.

2 gold coins or an AR15; which will keep you safer?


17 posted on 12/07/2013 10:25:49 AM PST by Macoozie (1) Win the Senate 2) Repeal Obamacare 3) Impeach Roberts)
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To: Kaslin

“Isn’t silver stamped 99.5?”

Some is .999 or .9999 (I believe Canada’s 1 oz. coin is “four nines fine”).


18 posted on 12/07/2013 10:29:41 AM PST by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Kaslin

Mine's real.

19 posted on 12/07/2013 10:30:03 AM PST by Yaelle
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To: babygene

I do think. That’s why I said it.


20 posted on 12/07/2013 10:37:46 AM PST by stormer
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To: MV=PY

Yes.


21 posted on 12/07/2013 10:41:44 AM PST by stormer
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To: Kaslin

Maybe it’s just me, but when it’s advertised for sale on radio and TV, I figure there’s no real value left in it anyway.


22 posted on 12/07/2013 10:48:26 AM PST by Emmett McCarthy
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To: lepton

“But gold plated tungsten would have the conductivity of gold as long as it has sufficient thickness”

Interesting point, but with a sensitive enough gauge and enough current it should be possible to tell the difference - but that gauge might be very, very expensive and finnicky.


23 posted on 12/07/2013 10:58:07 AM PST by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: babygene

“resistors in parallel. The equation is R total = R1 (times) R2, (divided by) R1 plus R2”

Yes, that is true, but if you have a fair thickness of gold, it becomes a much less simple matter to determine that the deviance of increasingly small variances is due to the bimetallic nature rather than some other test artifact.

As example, consider a plate of gold a sixteenth of an inch thick, and an inch by an inch! With a similar gold section a quarter inch high folded up on each end as the contacts. This will have very low resistance. Now weld a plate of tungsten on top. While that adds to conductivity per the cited equation, at that point things like shape (minute transmission distance differences) and contact become important.

You’d be better off detecting other properties, like using sound or some other vibration-based tech like a penetrating EM field to detect the interfaces between conductivities, densities, or internal reflectivity.

I suppose if you had lab-grade equipment with really high amperages, and a standard for shapes, and contact points it might work...until someone put a little silver on the tungsten.


24 posted on 12/07/2013 11:03:19 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: MCF

BFL


25 posted on 12/07/2013 11:06:03 AM PST by TurboZamboni (Marx smelled bad & lived with his parents most his life.)
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To: Macoozie

Those conditions will only last for a short time. Gold and silver will return to currency status.


26 posted on 12/07/2013 11:07:25 AM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: lepton

I don’t know why that exclamation point was inserted. It’s not that exciting.


27 posted on 12/07/2013 11:09:36 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Leaning Right

I was actually referring to a college setting where lab scales commonly are accurate to .0001 grams. Volumetric devices used are scaled depending on the sample, so there is a wide range of options available. Typically, analysis is done under stand temperature and pressure, so your contention that there is disagreement regarding densities is void. But where did I even mention density testing as an analytical method? It certainly is a method that could be used, and although time consuming, would certainly provide a useful result. But if I wanted a quick and dirty test, I’d just heat it up - gold melts a couple of thousand degrees below tungsten.


28 posted on 12/07/2013 11:12:50 AM PST by stormer
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To: Leaning Right

Correct.

The differences are so small, they are likely to be exceeded by inherent measurement errors.

A freshman chem student ain’t gonna be able to say squat about it...


29 posted on 12/07/2013 11:13:16 AM PST by djf (Global warming is a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: stormer
But where did I even mention density testing as an analytical method?

In your post #6.

Typically, analysis is done under standard temperature and pressure

Very true. After posting I also thought about the purity angle. Suppose that the "gold" bar in question was marked 99% pure. But suppose it was really closer to 98.5% pure. But the assayer's device couldn't pick the tenths place (or whatever). That would introduce an error even under STP.

30 posted on 12/07/2013 11:23:45 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: stormer

So if you coated the tungsten in copper or silver to lighten it before encapsulating it in gold, you could defeat the density test, yes?


31 posted on 12/07/2013 11:26:38 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Kaslin

the answer to fiat currencies is gold due to the inability to quickly produce more. the issue presented here is how can the buyer be certain. tough call

another solution to fiat currencies that also provides assurances of authenticity with little effort is... crypto currencies

one such example today is bitcoin


32 posted on 12/07/2013 11:27:22 AM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Kaslin

The definitive test between Gold and Tungsten is the bend test. Gold is much more ductile.


33 posted on 12/07/2013 11:31:32 AM PST by batterycommander (a little more rubble, a lot less trouble)
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To: babygene

Just so we’re clear...I agree you are correct in an ideal sense.


34 posted on 12/07/2013 11:45:55 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Leaning Right

Oops - you are correct. It’s early...


35 posted on 12/07/2013 11:56:26 AM PST by stormer
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To: djf

Differences small? The difference when comparing two cubic centimeters is .03 grams - that value is 300 times what a typical analytical scale can accurately measure. It is huge.


36 posted on 12/07/2013 12:12:10 PM PST by stormer
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To: djf

Meanwhile, gold has less half the electrical resistance of tungsten ( 22.14 vs 52.8), and about twice the thermal conductivity ( 318 vs 173 ), so you should be able to tell the difference by comparing the suspect coin against a known-good coin.


37 posted on 12/07/2013 12:36:36 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Macoozie
All true. Soap will also be a biggie. Gas, kero, propane, firewood.

Pre 65 US silver dimes, quarters and halves will, I think, be easier to trade with than suspect gold bars.

38 posted on 12/07/2013 1:02:34 PM PST by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux)
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To: stormer
It’s early...

No worries. I probably make more mistakes before noon than most people make all day. Now, if I can only remember where I parked my car last night.

39 posted on 12/07/2013 1:09:10 PM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Kaslin

1. Tungsten can’t be formed into intricate sculptural shapes like gold. It’s extremely brittle and not ductile.
2. There has NEVER been a tungsten coin that is a credible fake of gold, with the easily measured proper weight and dimensions. (Perhaps some big bars with tungsten cores, but that’s not a consumer issue). Unimaginable to look authentic when compared side by side with the real thing.
4. If one existed, it would be an extremely valuable collector’s item, and would “ring” very differently when dropped on a surface than a gold coin it purported to be (and could not possible look like).
3. This is anti-PM propaganda.


40 posted on 12/07/2013 2:28:21 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Eagles6

1/10 oz American Gold Eagles will also be easy to trade with.


41 posted on 12/07/2013 2:33:27 PM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

A needle would reveal the truth about that hypothetical propaganda image.


42 posted on 12/07/2013 2:34:17 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: lepton

Thus, dimensional measurements are critical as compared to a “standard” bar or piece.


43 posted on 12/07/2013 2:40:36 PM PST by SgtHooper (If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.)
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To: stormer

Think mechanical.

Create a machine (maybe with hard rubber surfaces) that bends a bar or coin just a little. Gold would bend a few thousandths, and the coin or bar would rock on a flat surface after the abuse.

A W fake would shatter, or just deform the skin visibly, or not bend at all, lying flat on the surface.

Tungsten might have lots in common with gold, but the detection methods are third world, and bulletproof. (like poking a needle into a bar).


44 posted on 12/07/2013 2:42:35 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: lepton

Good point.


45 posted on 12/07/2013 2:43:26 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Macoozie

The post of the thread. Buying gold is a fools measure for the SHTF!


46 posted on 12/07/2013 2:43:58 PM PST by SgtHooper (If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.)
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To: SVTCobra03

That would probably be your best bet for gold. There have been reports of the chicoms counterfeiting the 1 oz gold Eagles.


47 posted on 12/07/2013 3:43:04 PM PST by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux)
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To: PapaBear3625

Hit it with X-rays tuned for tungsten.

If it glows like a buck-toothed high school prom queen, you know you got ripped.


48 posted on 12/07/2013 4:50:31 PM PST by djf (Global warming is a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: Kaslin

I can hear a silver quarter in a handful of post ‘64 change from fifty paces. I’ve never “heard” a tungsten filled gold coin or bar, but I bet it sounds completely, and alarmingly different.


49 posted on 12/07/2013 6:01:39 PM PST by Born to Conserve
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To: Yaelle

Now that is worth something!


50 posted on 12/07/2013 6:04:29 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Proud Infidel, Gun Nut, Religious Fanatic and Freedom Fiend)
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