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Nelson Mandela vs Abraham Lincoln
self | 12/08/13 | Self

Posted on 12/08/2013 10:02:57 AM PST by PeaRidge

We are hearing a multitude of broadcasts, blogs, and stories about Mandela. Hosts fill their alloted time with stories of Mandela, and cannot help but slip into comparisons with modern politicians. It is also appropriate to compare him with our 16th President, Abraham Lincoln, who faced some of the very same challenges as Mr. Mandela.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: abolition; freedom; peace; war
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It should be discussed.
1 posted on 12/08/2013 10:02:57 AM PST by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge

I think FR needs a moratorium on Mandela threads.

He’s dead.

THE END


2 posted on 12/08/2013 10:11:58 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: PeaRidge

Well Lincoln did burn the South(including Atlanta) for daring to secede so they are similar in that : genocide.

here it says there is a stage 6 genocide in South Africa, mandela’s enduring legacy.

http://www.realnews24.com/genocide-watch-upgrades-south-africa-stage-6-preparation/

that is a genocide of whites in South Africa by a black government.

In South Africa many white women getting raped and tortured to death proof:
https://www.google.com/search?q=south+africa+rape+of+white+women&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=8XCjUq08x9qRB6j1gOgP&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=849&bih=465

Genocide Watch has been particularly concerned for over ten years at the hate crimes perpetrated against Boer farmers and other whites – bodies of murder victims dissembled and disfigured, old women raped in front of their husbands, and other strong evidence of racially targeted crimes. However, Genocide Watch had no evidence that the South African government was encouraging these crimes or that they were organised by an organised hate group.

Now Genocide Watch states that they have evidence of organised incitement to violence against white people.


3 posted on 12/08/2013 10:13:23 AM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: cripplecreek

I second that!


4 posted on 12/08/2013 10:15:27 AM PST by duckman (I'm part of the group pulling the wagon!)
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To: PeaRidge

Lincoln and mandela faced nothing that was the same.
Lincoln was not a communist.


5 posted on 12/08/2013 10:21:07 AM PST by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: Democrat_media

“Well Lincoln did burn the South(including Atlanta) for daring to secede so they are similar in that : genocide.”

Burning the South is not genocide

It is arson


6 posted on 12/08/2013 10:21:45 AM PST by will of the people
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To: cripplecreek

Well you’re right there...cant watch football without a moment of silence for him, read fr,twitter,or listen to radio and not be bombarded with this eternal fawning over someone, lets face it now, people are only pretending to care about. They’re like a starving dog gnawing on a meatless bone.


7 posted on 12/08/2013 10:21:55 AM PST by Dysart (Obamacare: "We are losing money on every subscriber-- but we will make it up in volume!")
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To: Dysart
 photo Beating_a_dead_horse.gif
8 posted on 12/08/2013 10:24:27 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: will of the people

How many southerners (Americans) did Lincoln kill?


9 posted on 12/08/2013 10:31:31 AM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: cripplecreek
Agreed, so here's some nice pictures:
10 posted on 12/08/2013 10:33:41 AM PST by EEGator
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To: cripplecreek

11 posted on 12/08/2013 10:35:42 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: cripplecreek

Sometimes I think a moratorium on Lincoln threads would be a good idea. ;)


12 posted on 12/08/2013 10:37:15 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Tijeras_Slim

Especially idiotic ones....like this one.


13 posted on 12/08/2013 10:45:47 AM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: cripplecreek

If only that were true. He will continue to be heralded as one of the world’s premier leaders of all time.


14 posted on 12/08/2013 10:58:58 AM PST by DoughtyOne (May his name be striken from every tablet stone building and never be said again short of treason!)
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To: PeaRidge

Mandela was a avid Communist with ties to violent thugs starting with his wife.

He might have ended apartheid, but in the wake he opened up a brand new wave of racial violence that’s brought South Africa to be known as one of the most dangerous places on Earth (for whites and blacks).


15 posted on 12/08/2013 11:04:31 AM PST by Tzimisce
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To: PeaRidge

Differences:

Lincoln only freed southern blacks. He couldn’t care less for Northern slaves - they were owned by his friends.

Similarities:

Smug self-congratulating “I am not racist” white people use their legacies indiscriminately while continuing to distance themselves from blacks. For communists, the enemy isn’t racism, but freedom.


16 posted on 12/08/2013 11:15:44 AM PST by golux
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To: EEGator

I like pictures of puppies and kittens.


17 posted on 12/08/2013 11:20:12 AM PST by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: EEGator

If I am not mistaken, isn’t that the infamous orange patch white kitten of the central plains of Africa, capable of killing a herd of elephants with a single bite? One drop of his venom can wipe out an entire population.


18 posted on 12/08/2013 11:27:59 AM PST by GrandJediMasterYoda (What do we want? Time travel. When do we want it? It's irrelevant.)
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To: golux
Lincoln only freed southern blacks. He couldn’t care less for Northern slaves - they were owned by his friends.

Bullsnot.

19 posted on 12/08/2013 11:30:22 AM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: PeaRidge

I never realized Lincoln had spent years in prison. That always gets left out of his biographies.


20 posted on 12/08/2013 11:36:06 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: tumblindice

I figured I had everyone covered with those pics.

If a person doesn’t like beer, a beautiful woman, or puppies and kittens, then they are insane.


21 posted on 12/08/2013 11:37:55 AM PST by EEGator
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Yep, it’s also capable of shooting lightning bolts from its eyes. A truly savage beast that is to be respected.


22 posted on 12/08/2013 11:40:19 AM PST by EEGator
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To: PeaRidge

I nominate this for the Dumbest Mandela-Related Thread Of The Week award.


23 posted on 12/08/2013 11:45:51 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: cripplecreek

Nelson Mandela Vs Bill Ayers Vs Yasser Arafat...

Lincoln’s not part of the mix.


24 posted on 12/08/2013 11:46:10 AM PST by maddog55
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To: PeaRidge

Lincoln did not want war. Mandela was a communist terrorist.


25 posted on 12/08/2013 11:47:38 AM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: Verginius Rufus
I never realized Lincoln had spent years in prison

Most of them out the part about him being a vampire killer.

26 posted on 12/08/2013 11:51:40 AM PST by verga (The devil is in the details)
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To: GeronL

Let me rephrase that Lincoln would rather not have had the war, but the south wasn’t going to stick around and he wasn’t willing to let them go. Lincoln would probably have compromised on the slavery thing to avoid it.


27 posted on 12/08/2013 11:56:34 AM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: verga
Most of them out the part about him being a vampire killer.

Well that would set him apart from Mandela right there.

28 posted on 12/08/2013 12:01:24 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: PeaRidge

I don’t recall Old Abe necklacing people as Mandela’s family did. Specifically his wife. I don’t recall the pubbies cutting of the noses of people who voted for their opposition as the ANC did. No I don’t think there is anything to discuss and no similarities whatsoever. Simply wishful, romantic nonsense.


29 posted on 12/08/2013 12:02:09 PM PST by Nuc 1.1 (Nuc 1 Liberals aren't Patriots. Remember 1789!)
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To: Democrat_media

That would be pretended confederate general Hood who burned Atlanta.

That would be the thousands of southern deserters who burned houses after they returned home and were not supported by states rights politicians after years of service to the slave power, and in response looted and burned local farm houses.


30 posted on 12/08/2013 12:06:05 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: golux

Lincoln worked to pass the 13th Amendment that freed all the slaves. He didn’t just free the southern slaves, but he did recognize that the federal government had limited powers to free slaves, absent an insurrection or constitutional amendment.

So he issued the EP to weaken the insurrection, and worked toward the amendment.


31 posted on 12/08/2013 12:09:20 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: Nuc 1.1
I don’t recall Old Abe necklacing people as Mandela’s family did.

Confederate Nathan Forrest comes closest to that with the atrocities at Fort Pillow: chaining Union soldiers to burning logs.

32 posted on 12/08/2013 12:14:39 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: PeaRidge

Mandela was a terrorist Lincoln was not.


33 posted on 12/08/2013 12:25:43 PM PST by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I go to sign is for the American Revolution 2013 and the Crusades 2013?)
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To: donmeaker
states rights.

now you all know Obama would send the army against the Southern states if we decided to secede .and the media again would use the demonozation of us as being racist to justify the invasion.

who does the buck stop with ? who is responsible for all these American deaths: all the following for what?

http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/national_cemeteries/death.html

The Civil War’s rate of death, its incidence in comparison with the size of the American population, was six times that of World War II. A similar rate, about two percent, in the United States today would mean six million fatalities. As the new southern nation struggled for survival against a wealthier and more populous enemy, its death toll reflected the disproportionate strains on its human capital. Confederate men died at a rate three times that of their Yankee counterparts; one in five white southern men of military age did not survive the Civil War. Twice as many Civil War soldiers died from disease as from battle wounds, the result in considerable measure of poor sanitation in an era that created mass armies that did not yet understand the transmission of infectious diseases like typhoid, typhus, and dysentery.

These military statistics, however, tell only a part of the story. The war also killed a significant number of civilians; battles raged across farm and field, encampments of troops spread epidemic disease, guerrillas ensnared women and children in violence and reprisals, draft rioters targeted innocent citizens, and shortages of food in parts of the South brought starvation. No one sought to document these deaths systematically, and no one has devised a method of undertaking a retrospective count. The distinguished Civil War historian James McPherson has estimated that there were 50,000 civilian deaths during the war, and has concluded that the overall mortality rate for the South exceeded that of any country in World War I and all but the region between the Rhine and the Volga in World War II.

34 posted on 12/08/2013 12:52:27 PM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: Democrat_media

If anyone starts an insurrection in the US, Obama should declare such an insurrection, and suppress it.

Of course if you want to legally secede you need
(1) majority of house and senate, and 3/4s of the states for an amendment or
(2) majority of house and senate, and presidential signature for straight law or
(3) 2/3rds of Senate and presidential signature for treaty
(4) a valid supreme court cause by one or more states, that wins.

Of course if you could get a majority of house and senate and 3/4s of the states or presidential signature, you could resolve any particular grievance that would compel different people to combine to pursue secession.

Who would be responsible for loss of life associated with any insurrection? That would be the parties pursuing insurrection.


35 posted on 12/08/2013 1:03:37 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: Democrat_media

By the way, in 1860-1865 there was no new southern nation. Rather they were an insurrection, that failed to gain the recognition of any foreign government anywhere in the world.


36 posted on 12/08/2013 1:09:51 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: donmeaker
I'm not talking about any insurrection just secession .

but you now the communist Obama would send the army against states seceding and you know the media will lie and say it was an insurrection. and almost all will believe what the news media says.

history is rewritten by the liberal/marxist news media. in this fake universe Obama, Mandela,JFK,FDR , Martin Luthor king are messiahs, saintly heroes. what they really are : pieces of crap evil marxist scum

37 posted on 12/08/2013 1:12:12 PM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: Democrat_media

Confederate men died at such a high rate because the pretended confederate army shot its own men at a high rate.


38 posted on 12/08/2013 1:12:34 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: Democrat_media

No doubt the media would like, if they thought it would be to their master’s advantage, but if you start an insurrection, pretending an illegal secession, that would be an insurrection, and they could tell the truth, and label the insurrection as an insurrection.


39 posted on 12/08/2013 1:14:05 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: donmeaker

rather ‘would like’ should be ‘would lie’


40 posted on 12/08/2013 1:17:11 PM PST by donmeaker
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To: Democrat_media
The distinguished Civil War historian James McPherson has estimated that there were 50,000 civilian deaths during the war, and has concluded that the overall mortality rate for the South exceeded that of any country in World War I and all but the region between the Rhine and the Volga in World War II.

Which merely indicates that wars have become less destructive, contrary to the popular POV.

The 30 Years War resulted in the deaths of 25% to 40% of Germans, with some provinces upwards of 75%.

Most Chinese changes of the Mandate of Heaven (one dynasty succeeding another) in the last 2000+ years resulted in death rates of 50% to 75%, usually over a few decades.

The Wars of the Three Kingdoms in 1600s Britain and Ireland resulted in the deaths of an estimated 10% of the English, 20% of the Scots, and 30% of the Irish.

The French and others had religious civil wars with similar death rates.

It is estimated that almost 300,000 CSA soldiers died, let's round up to that number. Add in the 50,000 claimed civilian deaths, almost all of whom were in the South for the obvious reason that's where the fighting was.

350,000 is around 3.8% of the 9M prewar population of the seceding states.

Most if not all seceding states showed an increase in population from the 1860 census to that of 1870.

41 posted on 12/08/2013 1:29:43 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
and has concluded that the overall mortality rate for the South exceeded that of any country in World War I and all but the region between the Rhine and the Volga in World War II.

U.S. population was much lower back then

25% of southern white men killed in the civil war. that is no walk in the park .and they didn't have modern weapons.of course Obama would send tanks against the people in the South like Clinton did in Waco. Obama would send the army to machine gun southerners

42 posted on 12/08/2013 1:39:09 PM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: donmeaker
If southern states seceded then your king Obama would send you to run over southerners with tanks like Clinton did at Waco.
43 posted on 12/08/2013 1:43:32 PM PST by Democrat_media (Obama ordered IRS to rig 2012 election and must resign)
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To: Democrat_media
How many southerners (Americans) did Lincoln kill?

How many Northerners (Americans) did Jeff Davis kill?

44 posted on 12/08/2013 1:45:39 PM PST by Ditto
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To: golux
Lincoln only freed southern blacks. He couldn’t care less for Northern slaves - they were owned by his friends.

You would be well served to read some history instead of the Lost Cause mythology you have obviously swallowed hook, line and sinker.

45 posted on 12/08/2013 1:53:53 PM PST by Ditto
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To: PeaRidge
It should be discussed.

Let's discuss it then.

Blacks in South Africa under Apartheid were not slaves. They could not be sold down the river never to see their families again. Their children belonged to them, not to some 'master.' They could work for wages wherever they could be hired. They were free to move about the country or even to leave the country if they chose. They could own property and that property was respected. They were allowed to learn to read and write.

Mandela v Lincoln? Wrong analogy.

Apartheid treated blacks in South Africa very similar to how blacks in the most of the Southern US were treated for 100 years after the Civil War. They were not allowed to participate in the political process. They were denied equal rights in a number of spheres such as housing, employment and educational opportunities. They were denied equal protection under the law. But they were not chattel slaves.

Mandela v M.L. King? I can see their struggles as similar but what Mandela fought against was nothing like the institution of slavery that Lincoln opposed and apparently you would have supported.

46 posted on 12/08/2013 2:35:55 PM PST by Ditto
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To: Ditto

I do not think you have any idea what I support.


47 posted on 12/08/2013 2:54:04 PM PST by PeaRidge
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To: rockrr; donmeaker

History alert!

Near the end of the war, Lincoln freed the southern slaves.

This was long after secession, long after the war began, long after there were no southern states in congress.

The last American slaves to be freed were in New Jersey.


48 posted on 12/09/2013 7:44:25 AM PST by golux
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To: Ditto
Ding! You could use a History alert, too! Why not start by reading the Emancipation Proclamation.
49 posted on 12/09/2013 7:46:59 AM PST by golux
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To: golux
"Ding! You could use a History alert, too! Why not start by reading the Emancipation Proclamation."

I have read it many times. Now tell us professor, how could Lincoln have Constitutionally freed slaves via executive order in states that were not in rebellion?

It appears you only have a superficial (or perhaps selective) knowledge of both history and of the Constitution.

50 posted on 12/09/2013 8:28:53 AM PST by Ditto
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