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Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message
Reuters ^ | Dec 12, 2014 | By Philip Pullella

Posted on 12/12/2013 7:11:26 AM PST by what's up

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To: what's up
He is calling on Governments to provide access to healthcare.

We already do this and I would argue it is good. We allow anyone to enter any hospital emergency room in these 50 states to get treated. I dont think we should be turning anyone away from an emergency room. That is healthcare.

Why doesn't what the Pope said concern any of the other nations besides the US as well?

101 posted on 12/12/2013 8:59:13 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Artcore

I believe he is condemning totalitarianism. Totalitarian governments attempt to control all aspects of social life including economy. (Wikipedia)


102 posted on 12/12/2013 9:02:48 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: Colonel_Flagg
These policies are largely already in place in this country but not socialist or totalitarian countries. Don't we have laws in this country where you cannot be turned away from a hospital emergency room (fraternity), enter public school (fraternity) apply for educational grants (fraternity), etc...

Not sure why this message from the Pope is assumed to be exclusively directed at the US.

103 posted on 12/12/2013 9:05:16 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Scarlet7

Amen, but Reuters says this message is all about the Good Ol’ US of A and many Freepers eat it up!


104 posted on 12/12/2013 9:06:33 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: what's up

OK, he’s a socialist. Now you know why he’s on the cover of Time.


105 posted on 12/12/2013 9:07:20 AM PST by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible traitors. Complicit in the destruction of our country.)
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To: Scarlet7

Couldn’t he say that? As it is, even if everybody is taking his words wrong—they have been taken— it’s too late.

Obama was already using his words, many on the left are. They are using the Pope’s words to support their actions or desire for action.

The pope will be too late if he clarifies his words after government has used his words to support their tyranny.


106 posted on 12/12/2013 9:08:31 AM PST by Irenic (The pencil sharpener and Elmer's glue is put away-- we've lost the red wheel barrow)
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To: frogjerk

It’s not always about us! :)


107 posted on 12/12/2013 9:11:46 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: Irenic

The D(evil) works where he is most effective. You should know not to trust the mainstream media. Investigate from trustworthy sources.


108 posted on 12/12/2013 9:22:37 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Here’s the thing. Given the controversy these comments have created, and now that they seem to have been repeated, would it not make sense for an institution as influential as the Vatican to release the Pope’s thoughts in the world’s major languages, approved by his office?

I'll go one step further. Today, half of all Catholics with a keyboard and an Internet connection want to be Jay Carney and spin the Pope's words, telling us what the Pope "really" meant. Given the repeated speeches on the same subject, would it not make sense for the Pope himself to come out and clarify his thoughts, if the Pope believes that he is being misunderstood?

109 posted on 12/12/2013 9:23:49 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: frogjerk

“Like allowing private ownership in communist countries which I assume you would be for. I am not sure how pushing for this type of policy would be socialist in that circumstance.”

It appears from the “translation” we have access to, that el pope is referring to non-communist nations that have income disparity. I do not see any “translations” aimed at allowing private ownership in communist countries.

I am against income disparities caused by crony capitalism - as we see in the US and the revolving door between politics, government agencies and industry. That doesn’t account for all the income disparity here.

El Pope should know this before he speaks about things outside his training.


110 posted on 12/12/2013 9:35:13 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: frogjerk
We already do this and I would argue it is good. We allow anyone to enter any hospital emergency room in these 50 states to get treated

"We allow". You mean the "Gov't allows"...right? Those aren't free choices by hospitals.

The Pope is not just addressing the US. He's addressing income inequality everywhere. But he knocks "trickle down" which is a buzz phrase for free markets and Reaganism. And the statements about Gov't policy for the "common good" are typical of those given by leftists, not capitalists.

111 posted on 12/12/2013 9:36:27 AM PST by what's up
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To: Scarlet7

>> “I believe he is condemning totalitarianism. Totalitarian governments attempt to control all aspects of social life including economy.” <<

.
Absurd to the max!

Those totalitarian regimes do not pay out “Mega-salaries.”


112 posted on 12/12/2013 9:44:35 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: what's up
The Pope should read this from Milton Friedman before he starts dreaming about his "Pope-atopia" again.

"Is there some society you know that doesn't run on greed? You think Russia doesn't run on greed? You think China doesn't run on greed? What is greed? Of course, none of us are greedy, it's only the other fellow who's greedy. The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn't construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn't revolutionize the automobile industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you're talking about, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worse off, worst off, it's exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear, that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by the free-enterprise system."

-Milton Friedman

113 posted on 12/12/2013 9:49:44 AM PST by JediJones (The #1 Must-see Filibuster of the Year: TEXAS TED AND THE CONSERVATIVE CRUZ-ADE)
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To: what's up

Well gosh Pope, Obama is quickly turning this nation into the U. S. S. R., so there’s still hope. Don’t give up on us yet.

I try not to be too disrespectful, but some of this Pope’s comments take it right out of my hands. He’s destroying his own credibility on financial matters.


114 posted on 12/12/2013 9:54:28 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Zero = zero)
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To: what's up
He and Obama seem to be on the same page regarding "spreading the wealth" around or, as the Pope says in this article "sharing the wealth"

The Catholic Church is the richest in the world. Maybe he will spread some of that wealth around to the individual. I could use an extra $50-thousand.

But it turns out to be surprisingly difficult to understand exactly how rich the church is. That’s in part because church finances are complicated. But it’s also because, in the United States at least, churches in general are exempted from the financial reporting and disclosure requirements that otherwise apply to nonprofit groups. And it turns out, that exemption may have undesirable consequences.

The main thing we know about Catholic Church finance is that in cash flow terms, the United States is by far the most important branch. America is a rich country with a large population of Catholics. What’s more, America’s Catholic population is a religious minority. That’s meant that, rather than using political clout to influence the shape of mainstream government institutions, as in an overwhelmingly Catholic country such as Brazil, the Catholic Church in the United States has created a parallel state: a vast web of schools, hospitals, universities, and charities that serve millions of clients.

Our best window into the overall financial picture of American Catholicism comes from a 2012 investigation by the Economist, which offered a rough-and-ready estimate of $170 billion in annual spending, of which almost $150 billion is associated with church-affiliated hospitals and institutions of higher education. The operating budget for ordinary parishes, at around $11 billion a year, is a relatively small share, and Catholic Charities is a smaller share still.

Apple and General Motors, by way of comparison, each had revenue of about $150 billion worldwide in Fiscal Year 2012. Legally speaking, there is no such thing as “the Catholic Church,” which is why these finances get so complicated. As far as the law is concerned, each diocese is a separate legal entity, incorporated in the states where it operates. Generally speaking, they are organized as what’s known as a corporation sole—a legal corporation wholly controlled by the individual bishop rather than a board of directors—and not officially part of any larger transnational spiritual organization. This has led to conflicts during the sex abuse scandals. Lawsuits have caused disputes about how deep the church’s pockets go and who should pay.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/03/catholic_church_and_pope_francis_religious_institutions_are_exempted_from.html

115 posted on 12/12/2013 9:56:23 AM PST by VideoDoctor
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To: what's up

We tried that access to capital.

In 2008, we were shown just what a swell idea that was.

Heck, five years, that was such a long time ago. It would be easy to forget... /s

...unless you still don’t have a job, or are making less than 50% what you were prior to the easy access to credit bubble burst.


116 posted on 12/12/2013 9:57:03 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Zero = zero)
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To: editor-surveyor

The leader of North Korea doesn’t look like he living the same lifestyle as his people.


117 posted on 12/12/2013 9:57:10 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: MrB

And the part where Jesus said we should demand that Caesar raise taxes and spread more of the wealth around.


118 posted on 12/12/2013 9:57:16 AM PST by JediJones (The #1 Must-see Filibuster of the Year: TEXAS TED AND THE CONSERVATIVE CRUZ-ADE)
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To: frogjerk

“Everyone seems to be getting sucked in by Reuters implying that the Pope it talking to the United States exclusively. There are plenty of communist and totalitarian regimes in the word that his words apply to more aptly.”

You are quite right. In fact, the statement is as much a critique of the Marxist-materialistic view of the world, such as valuing people on their worth to society,as it is a critique of unbridled capitalism.

There is nothing in this statement that contradicts what the previous popes and the Catechism of the Catholic Church have said on this subject.

More importantly, there is nothing here that contradicts the teachings of Jesus Christ. The central message of Christianity is not ‘get as much as you can as long as you don’t steal.’Christianity does not fall neatly into the left-right paradigm because it is about something deeper than an economic system.

It is also troubling that many here interpret any criticism of the market economy is socialist. Laissez-faire capitalism is just as unworkable and destructive as communism. Some people with economic and/or political power will always abuse that power and limit others’ access to the same. As they say, ‘the rich don’t want company.’


119 posted on 12/12/2013 9:57:23 AM PST by Lou Budvis
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To: Scarlet7

He isn’t paid a salary.


120 posted on 12/12/2013 9:58:56 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

But there’s a wealth gap there, agree?


121 posted on 12/12/2013 10:01:20 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: VideoDoctor

Well, then the Catholic church should start by offering free education to all at their schools instead of charging tuition. That’ll help spread the wealth.


122 posted on 12/12/2013 10:05:12 AM PST by JediJones (The #1 Must-see Filibuster of the Year: TEXAS TED AND THE CONSERVATIVE CRUZ-ADE)
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To: Lou Budvis
Laissez-faire capitalism is just as unworkable and destructive as communism.

That's total and complete crap. We don't need any government "restrictions, tariffs, and subsidies" in our economy to succeed economically. They only hold us back.

123 posted on 12/12/2013 10:11:21 AM PST by JediJones (The #1 Must-see Filibuster of the Year: TEXAS TED AND THE CONSERVATIVE CRUZ-ADE)
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To: Scarlet7
The leader of North Korea the USA doesn’t look like he living the same lifestyle as his people.
124 posted on 12/12/2013 10:14:06 AM PST by A_Tradition_Continues (formerly known as Politicalwit ...05/28/98 Class of '98)
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To: A_Tradition_Continues

Unbridled consumerism and a sense of entitlement. :)


125 posted on 12/12/2013 10:16:22 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: JediJones
Catholic church should start by offering free education to all at their schools instead of charging tuition.

Isn't paying the football coach of Notre Dame $2.6 million dollars a year spreading the wealth?

126 posted on 12/12/2013 10:17:56 AM PST by A_Tradition_Continues (formerly known as Politicalwit ...05/28/98 Class of '98)
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To: what's up

Ok. The Pope is a Socialist. Can’t believe I could actually post that as a fact. My how the cancerous left infiltrates everything. Now the Church. Doesn’t seem to be any refuge from them anywhere.


127 posted on 12/12/2013 10:20:29 AM PST by ThePatriotsFlag (...and to the Republic for which it stood.)
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To: what's up

It’s so pleasing for many cafeteria-style ‘catholics” (small C is appropriate) that this fresh pope shares the views of the current phony president.

He , like his predecessors subsequent to Pope Pius XII, is a flaming socialist who doesn’t understand that he was supposed to be a successor to Saint Peter.


128 posted on 12/12/2013 10:23:40 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: Repeat Offender
Any minute now the apologists will be showing up to explain how their Man of the Year was misinterpreted, again.

Perhaps we've also been misinterpreting Obama and he's really a free-market, tax-cutting, government-shrinking capitalist.

129 posted on 12/12/2013 10:25:26 AM PST by JediJones (The #1 Must-see Filibuster of the Year: TEXAS TED AND THE CONSERVATIVE CRUZ-ADE)
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To: FourtySeven

What it says to me is that my private property is not really mine. It says that others should have a say in how I should invest my resources. This country’s whole reason of existence was based on John Locke’s Right of Life, Liberty, and Property. The sanctity of private property is the cornerstone of the American system as created by our Founders. The United States is not a child of backward feudal absolutist continental Europe, no, the United States sprang from the bosom of the Protestant Anglosphere. That is why north of the Rio Grande, success, south of the Rio Grande, failure.


130 posted on 12/12/2013 10:46:51 AM PST by gusty
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To: MrB

MrB: “And they shared their wealth amongst themselves, the believers, not with every stranger that had their hand out demanding it.”

Not only that, but it (wealth redistribution) caused a slew of other problems that had to be addressed by the church leaders. The wealth redistribution described in Acts ultimately failed. It can probably work in small, committed groups, like the early church, but there’s no way it can function well for large organizations.


131 posted on 12/12/2013 10:47:16 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Democrats. The only constitutional rights they believe in are sodomy and abortion.)
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To: grania
About wars that are manipulated to happen, using Muslims as willing tools to destabilize the status quo?

Afghanistan wasn't "manipulated to happen" by anyone except for those "willing tools" the Muslims who started the war.

132 posted on 12/12/2013 10:52:59 AM PST by JediJones (The #1 Must-see Filibuster of the Year: TEXAS TED AND THE CONSERVATIVE CRUZ-ADE)
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To: CitizenUSA
It can probably work in small, committed groups

It's pretty much axiomatic that this group won't work at a scale extended beyond the nuclear family.

133 posted on 12/12/2013 10:53:34 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Lou Budvis
Laissez-faire capitalism is just as unworkable

Except we don't have laissez faire. We have oppressive Gov't intrusion. The Pope should be calling for less Gov't intrusion, not more.

is as much a critique of the Marxist-materialistic view of the world

Except the Pope uses language that bashes the free market much more than Marxism.

"Social fraternity", "guaranteed access to capital and healthcare"...these are phrases the left uses, not the right.

134 posted on 12/12/2013 10:53:38 AM PST by what's up
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To: Scarlet7
Unbridled consumerism

Well, we seem to be bridling our consumerism around my place.

Does the Pope get to pick and choose who gets bridled and who doesn't?

And more Gov't control will means I will have higher taxes to achieve this "guarantee" on health care he's talking about so I have to bridle myself further?

It's all leftist speak.

135 posted on 12/12/2013 10:59:15 AM PST by what's up
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To: from occupied ga

To the liberal - it is competition that is their greatest fear and is the root of all evil. Greed is the concept that is slipped willy nilly in the space between competitors to explain why one entity is strong and another weak. It is the apple on the Tree. Envy always hides behind a mask. It passes itself off by appeals to fairness, equality, or whatever explains away its insidious motivations. Greed is Envy’s most talented lie. A strong corporation shares whatever it itself considers the excess profits of its labor - by paying for executives and all others under its employ with big enough salaries to attract better ones than the competition. Building a strong and highly competitive corporation is one of the most virtuous activities of man.

The wealth gap can be explained in America as the result of citizens having become satiated - not with excellence, but with laziness. When the government and not the freeman controls the stepping stones, all paths are marked “Bovine only.”


136 posted on 12/12/2013 11:07:48 AM PST by februus
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To: gusty

“What it says to me is that my private property is not really mine. It says that others should have a say in how I should invest my resources”

Isn’t it possible that what it says is, every person, especially if one is a Christian, but at least if one considers oneself “moral” or “caring”, should not horde one’s possessions but rather always wish to first share it with others who are in need?

I think that’s a pretty reasonable interpretation of the Pope’s words. And it’s certainly not “Anti American”. Unless one considers being greedy/selfish a “good American”.

Also there’s nothing in the sentence I quoted to you or anywhere in this latest from the Pope that says “others should have a say in how I invest my resources.”

The recent actions by the Pope have been exhortations to every individual on the planet. Meant to be read and considered by every individual, a plea to everyone at once to not put oneself first, but rather put others first, always. This is the Christian way after all.

This is truly how nations and governments (entities composed of people, by definition) are effectively changed anyway. By changing the hearts and minds of the people that comprise them. Not by additional forces of the State as a whole, imposed upon individuals. But individuals changing the society they live in, from within.

Just something for you and others to consider as you read/hear his words. The ultimate fact here is that he can be interpreted two ways: one, as asking for more and more state control, or two, asking for more state sponsored “subsidiarity”. The latter is quite Catholic, and also, quite individualistic.

The ultimate choice of what you want to believe he implores is, of course, up to you. But I ask you, and anyone reading this, to read/hear the Pope’s words as a person merely asking each of us to follow a very simple rule: love your neighbor as yourself.


137 posted on 12/12/2013 11:09:33 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: what's up

You know, I am presently trying to read the Pope ‘s entire message on the Vatican website but have only so far gotten through a paragraph or so. IN the paragraph I read he talks about Cain and Abel. God blessed Abel. In his jealousy, Cain kills Abel and Cain has separated himself from God. Now what do you suppose that means?

If you want to know what the Pope really says I suggest you go to the Vatican website for the complete message.


138 posted on 12/12/2013 11:14:19 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: Scarlet7

There isn’t any such thing as wealth in N Korea.

Food and clothing are rare luxuries there.


139 posted on 12/12/2013 11:17:52 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: frogjerk
"These policies are largely already in place in this country but not socialist or totalitarian countries. Don't we have laws in this country where you cannot be turned away from a hospital emergency room (fraternity), enter public school (fraternity) apply for educational grants (fraternity), etc..."

I am not tracking with you completely here. Are you suggesting that socialist or totalitarian countries don't have socialist health care access? Like Cuba, for example? It can certainly be argued that your points about public schools and educational grants do not apply in totalitarian states, but that is in no small measure BECAUSE of the market system, not in spite of it.

"Not sure why this message from the Pope is assumed to be exclusively directed at the US."

I don't assume that. I think his message is directed at the world, as the title of the message indicates. And there's really no other interpretation that makes any sense than for the "effective policies" the Pontiff mentions to be implemented by governments, because they are the only ones who can.

140 posted on 12/12/2013 11:19:25 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: FourtySeven; gusty

>> Isn’t it possible that what it says is, every person, especially if one is a Christian, but at least if one considers oneself “moral” or “caring”, should not horde one’s possessions but rather always wish to first share it with others who are in need? <<

.
The second commandment.

Love thy neighbor as thy self.


141 posted on 12/12/2013 11:21:06 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: from occupied ga

I understand Economics enough to understand that without preservation of the middle class capitalism cannot survive. I also understand that unless individual and small businesses can thrive and grow there’s going to be a lack of opportunities to move ahead.


142 posted on 12/12/2013 11:23:11 AM PST by grania
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To: februus
Envy always hides behind a mask. It passes itself off by appeals to fairness, equality, or whatever explains away its insidious motivations

Very true.

143 posted on 12/12/2013 11:25:16 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: Salvation

“Moreover, if on the one hand we are seeing a reduction in absolute poverty, on the other hand we cannot fail to recognize that there is a serious rise in relative poverty, that is, instances of inequality between people and groups who live together in particular regions or in a determined historical-cultural context. In this sense, effective policies are needed to promote the principle offraternity, securing for people – who are equal in dignity and in fundamental rights – access to capital, services, educational resources, healthcare and technology so that every person has the opportunity to express and realize his or her life project and can develop fully as a person.

One also sees the need for policies which can lighten an excessive imbalance between incomes. We must not forget the Church’s teaching on the so-called social mortgage, which holds that although it is lawful, as Saint Thomas Aquinas says, and indeed necessary “that people have ownership of goods”,12 insofar as their use is concerned, “they possess them as not just their own, but common to others as well, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as themselves”.13...

...For this reason, I appeal forcefully to all those who sow violence and death by force of arms: in the person you today see simply as an enemy to be beaten, discover rather your brother or sister, and hold back your hand! Give up the way of arms and go out to meet the other in dialogue, pardon and reconciliation, in order to rebuild justice, trust, and hope around you! “From this standpoint, it is clear that, for the world’s peoples, armed conflicts are always a deliberate negation of international harmony, and create profound divisions and deep wounds which require many years to heal. Wars are a concrete refusal to pursue the great economic and social goals that the international community has set itself”.16

Nevertheless, as long as so great a quantity of arms are in circulation as at present, new pretexts can always be found for initiating hostilities. For this reason, I make my own the appeal of my predecessors for the non-proliferation of arms and for disarmament of all parties, beginning with nuclear and chemical weapons disarmament.

We cannot however fail to observe that international agreements and national laws – while necessary and greatly to be desired – are not of themselves sufficient to protect humanity from the risk of armed conflict. A conversion of hearts is needed which would permit everyone to recognize in the other a brother or sister to care for, and to work together with, in building a fulfilling life for all. This is the spirit which inspires many initiatives of civil society, including religious organizations, to promote peace. I express my hope that the daily commitment of all will continue to bear fruit and that there will be an effective application in international law of the right to peace, as a fundamental human right and a necessary prerequisite for every other right....

...It is well known that present production is sufficient, and yet millions of persons continue to suffer and die from hunger, and this is a real scandal. We need, then, to find ways by which all may benefit from the fruits of the earth, not only to avoid the widening gap between those who have more and those who must be content with the crumbs, but above all because it is a question of justice, equality and respect for every human being. In this regard I would like to remind everyone of that necessary universal destination of all goods which is one of the fundamental principles of the Church’s social teaching. Respect for this principle is the essential condition for facilitating an effective and fair access to those essential and primary goods which every person needs and to which he or she has a right...

...From the Vatican, 8 December 2013

FRANCISCUS”

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/fraternity-the-foundation-and-pathway-of-peace

What did the “lamestream media” misquote?


144 posted on 12/12/2013 11:25:40 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: ladyjane
I agree, all the catholic schools that closed in my area. I had to send my daughter 25 miles to the closest catholic school. They could have saved these schools. Also the church I belong too should have helped us pay for the outrageous tuition.
145 posted on 12/12/2013 11:28:11 AM PST by angcat
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To: editor-surveyor

He looks like he has at least 20% more, at least visually. :)


146 posted on 12/12/2013 11:29:14 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: what's up

>> He and Obama seem to be on the same page

Except under Obama, the wealth gap has increased.

Govt policy that facilitates small business capitalism is one that would better spread the wealth through natural means, and not through the iron fist of govt.

Communism and tyranny best exemplify the most severe wealth disparity.


147 posted on 12/12/2013 11:33:50 AM PST by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: what's up

Start taxing the church if it wants to go political.


148 posted on 12/12/2013 11:34:01 AM PST by VRWC For Truth (Roberts has perverted the Constitution)
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To: FourtySeven
but at least if one considers oneself “moral” or “caring”, should not horde one’s possessions but rather always wish to first share it with others who are in need?

That would be fine if that's all he said. But he asked for Gov'ts to engage in guarantees for the poor. This isn't personal charity, it's Gov't intrusion.

149 posted on 12/12/2013 11:34:51 AM PST by what's up
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To: editor-surveyor

Yeah, what if my neighbor is an ass****. What about “Thou shall not steal”. All very nice, lets all hold hands and sing “We Are The World.” In the real world people work for certificates of appreciation and happiness called money. The more happiness you bring people in the goods you sell them, the more certificates of happiness you earn.


150 posted on 12/12/2013 11:37:44 AM PST by gusty
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