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Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message
Reuters ^ | Dec 12, 2014 | By Philip Pullella

Posted on 12/12/2013 7:11:26 AM PST by what's up

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To: what's up

I believe the Pope is speaking to some people (I know of) who make $300,000 annually with $600,000 in bonuses whose families’ lives are in shambles because they work so much and for what end result? More stuff?

He’s speaking to countries whose people’s lives are so enslaved to their government with no freedom and no access to anything but another day of misery.

He’s asking people to change their hearts. To reflect on what is TRULY important in life. To love our neighbor as ourselves or MORE stuff?


51 posted on 12/12/2013 7:54:15 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: Salvation

“One also sees the need for policies which can lighten an excessive imbalance between incomes. We must not forget the Church’s teaching on the so-called social mortgage, which holds that although it is lawful, as Saint Thomas Aquinas says, and indeed necessary “that people have ownership of goods”,[12] insofar as their use is concerned, “they possess them as not just their own, but common to others as well, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as themselves”.[13]”

This paragraph is as alien the American tradition as you could get. It is the antithesis of the Declaration of Independence. Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, etc would be horrified by this alien ideology.


52 posted on 12/12/2013 7:55:29 AM PST by gusty
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To: vbmoneyspender
When did giving economics advice become part of the Pope's job description?

He's a head of state and he's Pope. Part of his job description is to have wisdom to convey Christian values.

Isn't part of what he's doing is to encourage discussion of his values? A discussion of greed is not inappropriate.

53 posted on 12/12/2013 7:56:15 AM PST by grania
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To: avenir

I must have missed the part in that scripture about “implementing government policies”...


54 posted on 12/12/2013 7:57:14 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: what's up

More translation errors? I don’t think so. The Pope is clearly a socialist. He is not a totalitarian socialist. He thinks there should be a residual private sector of taxi cab drivers and lawn service companies. Otherwise, business is to be regulated for the common good as determined by the government. We don’t have a good word for this. The old word is fascism. The appearance of private property with control being exercised by government. Mussolini’s Italy, Franco’s Spain and Peron’s Argentina are now, once again, the exemplars of Catholic political economy.


55 posted on 12/12/2013 7:58:06 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: Scarlet7
He’s asking people to change their hearts

He's also asked for Gov'ts to adopt policies to allow for more "equality".

If he were just calling on individuals to give to the poor I'd be all for it. But he's asking for MORE activist Gov't...which is just what Obama wants.

56 posted on 12/12/2013 7:58:28 AM PST by what's up
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To: what's up

Somehow, it just escapes leftists that the same species - humans - who inhabit these positions of government that they seek to empower
are the ones they are decrying as “greedy” outside the government.

The difference is, those in government have the legal use of deadly force at their disposal.


57 posted on 12/12/2013 8:00:40 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: what's up

Did he specifically mention America?


58 posted on 12/12/2013 8:01:45 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: grania
A discussion of greed is not inappropriate.

From your use of the word "greed" and the pope's comments it appears that neither one of you knows jack about economics, wealth creation or human motivation.

59 posted on 12/12/2013 8:04:14 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: from occupied ga

Had a recent discussion of “greed” with a libinlaw.
Her position was emotional, that all greed was bad.

She was livid that I insisted that we would be instilling the virtue of self-interest in our children and recognizing the systemic value of individuals acting in self-interest.

In other words, we’d be teaching them “economics”.


60 posted on 12/12/2013 8:07:16 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: what's up

I have the same advice for the Pope as I did for Henry Blodget:

Why don’t you set a good example for the rest of us and donate all but a subsistence portion of the Vatican wealth to the “poor”? You know, do your own small part toward achieving “equality”. Start with making yourself poor first, and then maybe you’ll have a basis for the necessary “moral superiority” to tell the rest of us how much money we should be allowed to keep.


61 posted on 12/12/2013 8:08:34 AM PST by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Vote Republican in 2012 and only be called racist one more time!)
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To: grania
He talked about economic systems that he wants to change. If he wants to do that, he should resign as Pope and either run for political office in Argentina or become an economics professor.

And he might want to rethink the proposition that economic systems cause greed rather than human nature. When he says stuff like that he sounds like a foolish left-wing undergrad.

62 posted on 12/12/2013 8:11:55 AM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: Iron Munro

Regarding what the Pope should focus on: The Pope should certainly be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. IF the Gospel message is that we need big government to establish social justice in the world, thats what we should do. On the other hand, if that is not the Gospel message, then the question is how could the Pope be so wrong?


63 posted on 12/12/2013 8:12:18 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: what's up
It's obviously true that Christ made it abundantly clear that His followers were expected to be charitable...very charitable in fact.He did not,OTOH,demand that this charity be funneled through any government functionaries...”render unto Caesar”.I give to charity...*private* charities.Probably not as much as I should but I'll wager that,on a percentage basis,I'm more charitable than are/were the likes of the Osama Obama,the Clintons,the Gores,the Kennedys,the Reids,the Pelosis,etc.
64 posted on 12/12/2013 8:13:29 AM PST by Gay State Conservative (Osama Obama Care: A Religion That Will Have You On Your Knees!)
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To: what's up
The pope/bishops etc should leave Caesars business to Caesar and tend to Gods business. They are to be Shepard's feeding Jesus lambs and spreading the gospel to the world..
65 posted on 12/12/2013 8:14:49 AM PST by goat granny
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To: MrB
Her position was emotional, that all greed was bad.

Greed is a negative word and frequently used to misinform the ignorant. For example, if you work your backside off to get ahead and make a decent amount of money, the government (and the pope apparently) calls you "greedy" On the other hand if you're a government demagogue who has never worked a day of your life in the private sector and you're calling for those who do work to "put some skin in the game" you're not greedy even though you're stealing from those who earned it. Likewise, if you're a worthless drone who by choice sits around, drunk, high, watching daytime TV, smoking dope and cigarettes, scratching off lotto tickets and squirting our dependent children to get a bigger check, why then you're not greedy at all.

The use of the word greed in the context that the pope and some of the posters here use it is an absolute moral inversion of the reality.

66 posted on 12/12/2013 8:14:56 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: allendale
Wonder if the Pope is about to have the garage sale of all garage sales to aid the poor.

Rumor has it that John Paul II planned to do this in the early days of his papacy, but faced a full-on rebellion from the Vatican insiders.


67 posted on 12/12/2013 8:15:52 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Buckeye McFrog

As the wife of “The Jerk” said,
it’s not the money,
it’s all the STUUUUFFFFF.


68 posted on 12/12/2013 8:16:51 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: oldbrowser
"Now take heaven and hell. People are divided by giving them their just deserts. Those who were evil and violated God's law get the punishment. People who were good get to go to heaven."

If this were true nobody would get to heaven. I try to live a Godly life and the longer I walk on a Christian path the more I realize that the last thing I want is for God to give me what I deserve. I need a Savior. And God, in his grace, has given me one. God has promised to treat me as Jesus' deserves and to wash away my sin. It is the only hope, but a hope available to anyone if they will only reprent and accept Jesus with all their heart.

69 posted on 12/12/2013 8:22:14 AM PST by circlecity
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To: what's up

Now, now, now. This is simply a very bad translation of what he actually said... /s


70 posted on 12/12/2013 8:22:28 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: what's up
Without producers there is nothing for enlightened re-distributors like the pope to redistribute.
71 posted on 12/12/2013 8:22:51 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Who knew that one day professional wrestling would be less fake than professional journalism?)
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To: Scarlet7
Why should it matter that he didn't mention any specific nations?

Capitalism helps the poor no matter where one lives.

72 posted on 12/12/2013 8:22:57 AM PST by what's up
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To: what's up

Did he condemn capitalism or was it unbridled consumerism?


73 posted on 12/12/2013 8:24:52 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: what's up
What Reuter's says the Pope said:

He attacked the "widening gap between those who have more and those who must be content with the crumbs", calling on governments to implement "effective policies" to guarantee people's fundamental rights, including access to capital, services, educational resources, healthcare and technology.

What the Pope exactly said:

Moreover, if on the one hand we are seeing a reduction in absolute poverty, on the other hand we cannot fail to recognize that there is a serious rise in relative poverty, that is, instances of inequality between people and groups who live together in particular regions or in a determined historical-cultural context. In this sense, effective policies are needed to promote the principle of fraternity, securing for people – who are equal in dignity and in fundamental rights – access to capital, services, educational resources, healthcare and technology so that every person has the opportunity to express and realize his or her life project and can develop fully as a person.

The MSM strikes again.

74 posted on 12/12/2013 8:26:04 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Salvation

“One also sees the need for policies which can lighten an excessive imbalance between incomes. “

Direct marxist quote from your link...

The founders of our country wrote of the pursuit of happiness - not the guarantee of happiness.

One person stays on govt assistance their whole life. Another becomes an engineer or doctor. NOW, the pope wants policies to minimize the results of those life choices... ?


75 posted on 12/12/2013 8:27:44 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: what's up
"requires de­cisions, programs, mechanisms and process­es specifically geared to a better distribution of income"

That does it. He's a SOCIALIST.

I don't care how you try to parse or justify that one. He's done in my book. A leftist socialist totalitarian centralizer.

WHO gets to decide his "better distribution of income?" Precisely who is the elevated superior omniscient decider of "better"?

G-d would not elevate decisions above individuals to superior individuals. That's slavery and antithetical to the prime message of Exodus.

I reject this Pope.

76 posted on 12/12/2013 8:28:40 AM PST by Uncle Miltie (I Love 0bamaCare! It proves government incompetence forever.)
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To: Alex Murphy
"calling on governments to implement "effective policies" to guarantee people's fundamental rights, including access to capital, services, educational resources, healthcare and technology."

"IBTPWM"

"In before 'The Pope Was Mistranslated'".

This is starting to get tiresome.

77 posted on 12/12/2013 8:31:46 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: what's up

Rooters, eh? I guess I’ll wait for an accurate translation.


78 posted on 12/12/2013 8:33:13 AM PST by skeeter
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To: Scarlet7
Asking for more gov't intervention because of income inequality is a turning from free markets i.e. capitalism.

We already have too much Gov't intrusion...the Pope is calling for even more. This is not capitalism.

79 posted on 12/12/2013 8:33:25 AM PST by what's up
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To: Colonel_Flagg

You only made it “in” by one and a half minutes.


80 posted on 12/12/2013 8:34:04 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Colonel_Flagg
"IBTPWM" = "In before 'The Pope Was Mistranslated'".

I'm going to start using that!

81 posted on 12/12/2013 8:34:52 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: what's up; Salvation
Reuters says the Pope says: He attacked the "widening gap between those who have more and those who must be content with the crumbs",

The Pope actually says:

In a particular way, the agricultural sector is the primary productive sector with the crucial vocation of cultivating and protecting natural resources in order to feed humanity. In this regard the continuing disgrace of hunger in the world moves me to share with you the question: How are we using the earth’s resources? Contemporary societies should reflect on the hierarchy of priorities to which production is directed. It is a truly pressing duty to use the earth’s resources in such a way that all may be free from hunger. Initiatives and possible solutions are many, and are not limited to an increase in production. It is well known that present production is sufficient, and yet millions of persons continue to suffer and die from hunger, and this is a real scandal. We need, then, to find ways by which all may benefit from the fruits of the earth, not only to avoid the widening gap between those who have more and those who must be content with the crumbs, but above all because it is a question of justice, equality and respect for every human being. In this regard I would like to remind everyone of that necessary universal destination of all goods which is one of the fundamental principles of the Church’s social teaching. Respect for this principle is the essential condition for facilitating an effective and fair access to those essential and primary goods which every person needs and to which he or she has a right.

The Pope speaks about "access" and not guarantees of goods.

Many people on this thread love to just jump on board when it comes to the Pope and do not do their due diligence when it come to the source of these supposed statements like they would if it was attributing statements to their guy or gal. Truly a double standards put on display here.

82 posted on 12/12/2013 8:35:31 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: what's up

Where does he ask for government intervention specifically in http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/messages/peace/documents/papa-francesco_20131208_messaggio-xlvii-giornata-mondiale-pace-2014_en.html ?


83 posted on 12/12/2013 8:37:05 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Mr Flagg - where in the document does the Pope ask for the government guarantee these things?

Here is the actual words of the Pope:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/messages/peace/documents/papa-francesco_20131208_messaggio-xlvii-giornata-mondiale-pace-2014_en.html

84 posted on 12/12/2013 8:38:47 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: frogjerk
policies are needed to promote the principle of fraternity, securing for people

Really? Gov't policies to promote fraternity? To secure access to capital?

Sounds pretty socialistic to me.

85 posted on 12/12/2013 8:39:13 AM PST by what's up
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To: Scarlet7

“Did he condemn capitalism or was it unbridled consumerism?”
__________________________________________________________

It is embarrassing watching folks try and defend this Popes holier than thou, and STUPID pronouncements.

So let me see if I understand this, the Pope has the power to see into people’s hearts and judge how they spend THIER MONEY? Tell Scarlet, why isn’t the Pope condemning totalitarian governments?

Seriously, I’m beyond tired of this socialist sounding pope making one dumb statement after another.


86 posted on 12/12/2013 8:39:59 AM PST by Artcore
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To: Uncle Miltie
"requires de­cisions, programs, mechanisms and process­es specifically geared to a better distribution of income"

Where is this in the words of the Pope's message?

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/messages/peace/documents/papa-francesco_20131208_messaggio-xlvii-giornata-mondiale-pace-2014_en.html

87 posted on 12/12/2013 8:40:53 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Alex Murphy

Here’s the thing. Given the controversy these comments have created, and now that they seem to have been repeated, would it not make sense for an institution as influential as the Vatican to release the Pope’s thoughts in the world’s major languages, approved by his office?


88 posted on 12/12/2013 8:41:40 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: frogjerk

I’ll go and look. How about his office releasing those words directly, as I suggest in #88, for the reasons therein?


89 posted on 12/12/2013 8:44:00 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: what's up

When the government helped the Katrina victims or any people who suffer from a natural disaster or famine is that turning away from capitalism?


90 posted on 12/12/2013 8:44:04 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: Salvation

Thanks for posting that.

It’s clear to anyone (who desires truth over personal agenda) who reads the text you posted, what he actually said and what Reuters says he said are two vastly different things.

It will go ignored though, by those who enjoy lapping up what services like Reuters offers when it suits their agenda, e.g., lambasting the Pope.


91 posted on 12/12/2013 8:44:41 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
What I am very curious about is that the the message is directed to the world and not just the United States.

I can think of a whole bunch of nations where there are policies needed to lighten the excessive imbalance between incomes. Like allowing private ownership in communist countries which I assume you would be for.

I am not sure how pushing for this type of policy would be socialist in that circumstance.

92 posted on 12/12/2013 8:46:54 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: frogjerk
Respect for this principle is the essential condition for facilitating an effective and fair access to those essential and primary goods which every person needs and to which he or she has a right.

People do not have an inherent "right" to primary goods, capital access, healthcare access or the other items the Pope mentioned.

Many people will not have "access" to capital because of lousy choices. My access to capital is dependent on hard work. Not everyone works...Gov't should not be involved in guaranteeing them access to capital...or healthcare...or whatever other "primary goods" a Gov't deems necessary.

93 posted on 12/12/2013 8:47:29 AM PST by what's up
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To: Colonel_Flagg

It is released directly on the Vatican web site which no one who wants to hear what they want to hear is going to visit.


94 posted on 12/12/2013 8:48:27 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: gusty

Put the following sentence in your own words: ““they possess them as not just their own, but common to others as well, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as themselves”.[13]””

What do you think that says?


95 posted on 12/12/2013 8:50:26 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: frogjerk
"where in the document does the Pope ask for the government guarantee these things?"

__

?"In this sense, effective policies are needed to promote the principle of fraternity, securing for people – who are equal in dignity and in fundamental rights – access to capital, services, educational resources, healthcare and technology so that every person has the opportunity to express and realize his or her life project and can develop fully as a person." - Point five, paragraph two.

___

Who is to implement the 'effective policies' of which the Pontiff speaks? It appears the cruz of the argument lies here. What is your opinion?

96 posted on 12/12/2013 8:51:47 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: Scarlet7
It's debatable whether the Federal Gov't should be as involved in natural disasters as they are today. If people were able to keep more of their money States, charities and individuals would have more to help the local situation from free choice...and often would be more effective.

Anyway, the Pope is not talking about natural disasters. He is calling on Governments to provide access to healthcare. That's not a one time deal. That's entitlement.

97 posted on 12/12/2013 8:51:52 AM PST by what's up
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To: what's up
Capital is created, as you state, by work. So, should the government guarantee that every citizen has the same access to apply for a job should certain citizens be excluded? I would argue that right-to-work states are more free in that they are guaranteeing this right-to-work. Shouldn't the government protect my right to apply for health insurance or a gun to protect my family and property.

Everyone seems to be getting sucked in by Reuters implying that the Pope it talking to the United States exclusively. There are plenty of communist and totalitarian regimes in the word that his words apply to more aptly.

98 posted on 12/12/2013 8:55:56 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: what's up
Any minute now the apologists will be showing up to explain how their Man of the Year was misinterpreted, again.
99 posted on 12/12/2013 8:56:19 AM PST by Repeat Offender (What good are conservative principles if we don't stand by them?)
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To: what's up

“Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message”

More Blah Blah Blah from this Pope. Typical libby platitudes without any actual recommendations. Precisely WHAT does he propose to fix this immaginary problem? Confiscation? Salary limits? HUGE taxes? Should the govt decide how much people earn? Sounds like he want the stupid, lazy and useless to have the same stuff as the productive folks.
Until he suggests specific policies I suggest the Pontiff just keep working his beads.


100 posted on 12/12/2013 8:59:02 AM PST by Brooklyn Attitude (Things are only going to get worse.)
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