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Poor Ukrainians Rally For Russia
Daily Beast ^

Posted on 12/15/2013 4:44:19 PM PST by kronos77

At a rival protest in Kiev this weekend, impoverished workers from eastern Ukraine turned out to show their support for the government and stronger ties with Moscow even as the pro-EU crowd grew ever more jubilant. They were poor. Their clothes looked cheap and worn, their faces tired; their feelings were hurt. A group of workers and miners from Kirovsk, an industrial town in eastern Ukraine, were among thousands of protesters walking on Sunday morning towards the anti-Euro rally in Kiev’s Mariinsky park, to demonstrate their support for Ukraine’s president, Victor Yanukovych, and for friendship with Russia. Two parts of Ukraine spoke out in Kiev’s squares this weekend; both had the right to be heard.

To most of the pro-government protesters, residents of the eastern and southern parts of Ukraine, Kiev’s divorce with Moscow would mean unemployment, more poverty and hunger. For the past month, they had felt heartbroken watching “the other Ukraine” on the news, as hundreds of thousands of pro-EU protesters declared that “Ukraine would not be a province of the Russian empire any longer.” The Maidan camp with all its E.U. flags, where U.S. Senator John McCain addressed the crowd this weekend, and where Ukrainian nationalist songs ring out, is “an ideologically hostile place, aiming to cause a schism of Ukraine,” said Aleksander Lukyanenko, an unemployed man and member of the Party of Regions, which led the anti-EU factions.

But just as Lukyanenko and his friends were about to step into the crowded park, a young hipster handed them a flier. It was a copy of a letter from the Maidan, distributed by the opposition to participants in the pro-government rally.

(Excerpt) Read more at thedailybeast.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: agitprop; astroturf; gasputin; kgbputin; kgbputinfanclub; kronos77; putin; putinapologist; putinbuttkisser; russia; ukraine
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1 posted on 12/15/2013 4:44:20 PM PST by kronos77
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To: kronos77
Articles like this assume the reader is ignorant of the facts on the ground I guess. Anybody familiar with Ukraine knows that the eastern sections of Ukraine are wealthier than the mainly agricultural areas west of Kiev. All of the industry is in the east. Per capita incomes are about 40% higher in the east. The east contributes 70% of the taxes to the central government.

One thing the article says is true, the EU pact would mean massive shutdowns of industry since the Ukrainian manufactures could never compete with German, Dutch, and even French industries.
2 posted on 12/15/2013 4:57:05 PM PST by Timedrifter
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To: kronos77

One thing the ruling Party of Regions achieved by bringing over demonstrators to Kiev was to show to the international observers covering Kiev’s protests how hopelessly poor their supporters were. Lines of hungry people waited to have a plate of buckwheat mixed with pieces of canned meat and a cup of hot tea at the pro-presidential rally. There was no sign of Cossacks in traditional clothes cooking giant balls of tasty soups, no stands with volunteers serving vegetables or slices of traditional smoked pork fat—all that festive atmosphere stayed at the Maidan. Neither were there scientists or academics reading free lectures on economy or political science, nor even any volunteer medical centers.
Red Cross volunteers provided free medicine to both pro-Western and pro-Eastern camps in Kiev this weekend. “I advised some especially sick-looking visitors from eastern Ukraine to quietly walk away from here to the Maidan and have some oranges, have a plate of healthy borsch,” said Sergei Gromada, a Red Cross volunteer working in the “Eastern camp.”
On Saturday night, the contrast between the two camps grew especially significant. At 8:30 p.m. more than 100,000 people were packed into the Maidan, rocking and rolling at a live concert by one on Ukraine’s most popular bands, Okean Elza. Young people rapped in Ukranian, and Okean Elza sang its famous “Get Up!” song it had performed during the Orange Revolution. One block away, in the European Square, the site of pro-president rally earlier that day, only a few policemen and their dogs milled about.


3 posted on 12/15/2013 4:57:24 PM PST by tlozo
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To: kronos77

Do you (or does anyone on FR) know whether the pro-E.U. faction is more heavily Uniate than the Ukrainian population as a whole? I’m curious, though my impression is that it’s mostly urban, probably thoroughly secular, Ukrainians who want to get into the orbit of the Christophobic Brussels nomenklatura.


4 posted on 12/15/2013 4:58:18 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: kronos77

LOL—images of the unions busing in protestors to some commielib event here in the U.S.


5 posted on 12/15/2013 4:58:58 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: kronos77
But just as Lukyanenko and his friends were about to step into the crowded park, a young hipster handed them a flier. It was a copy of a letter from the Maidan, distributed by the opposition to participants in the pro-government rally. “The Maidan does not stand for NATO, the USA or Europe,” the flier said.

Isn't it kind of hard to believe that when there's a neocon RINO from America in the crowd shaking hands at the same time?

6 posted on 12/15/2013 5:04:15 PM PST by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: kronos77
Flashback: 2007

Yushchenko: Russia blocking poisoning probe
By Bonnie Malkin and agencies, September 12, 2007


Mr Yushchenko before and after the poisoning

"Mr Yushchenko, a pro-European politician who wanted to bring his country [The Ukraine] out of Russia's shadow, fell seriously ill on September 6, 2004 as he was competing in presidential elections against a pro-Moscow candidate, Viktor Yanukovich, now prime minister.

After months of tests in an Austrian clinic, it was determined that he had ingested a massive amount of the poison dioxin.

Although he survived, his face was left bloated and pockmarked, and he has had to undergo regular treatment to rid his body of the toxin.

In an interview with Le Figaro he said he believed the dioxin used to disfigure him was made in a Russian lab.

Mr Yushchenko did not directly accuse the Russian government of being behind his poisoning, but he did say he had 'practically put all the pieces together' and the attempt against him 'was not a private action'. ..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1562838/Yushchenko-Russia-blocking-poisoning-probe.html
_____________________________________________________

"Viktor Andriyovych Yushchenko (born February 23, 1954) is the third and current President of Ukraine". He took office on January 23, 2005. [there is a new pro-Putin president since]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko
_______________________________________________________

(Ukraine) Hunt starts for Yushchenko's poisoner:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1478922/Hunt-starts-for-Yushchenko%27s-poisoner.html
_______________________________________________________

Putin's Poison?
by Peter Brookes, November 27, 2006
The death of former Russian spy, Alexander Litvinenko, last week from radioactive Polonium-210 poisoning is the latest in a series of politically motivated attacks on the outspoken opponents of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed112706a.cfm

7 posted on 12/15/2013 5:08:15 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: mac_truck

Leading to the question: what is more disconcerting—fat women fainting at Obama rallies, or FReepers fainting at the mention of their hero, Vladimir Putin?


8 posted on 12/15/2013 5:08:21 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

It is sickening, isn’t it. I can’t believe they let this guy remain here.


9 posted on 12/15/2013 5:12:40 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: 1rudeboy

Get lost troll boy.


10 posted on 12/15/2013 5:12:55 PM PST by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: mac_truck

Are you are KGB Putin groupie like kronos?


11 posted on 12/15/2013 5:14:18 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: mac_truck

I’m not going to tell you to get lost. Your presence here obviates the need for me to read Ria Novosti.


12 posted on 12/15/2013 5:16:10 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: kronos77

The Russian-speaking east is not enamored of the “Euromaidan” movement espoused by western Ukrainians.

In the east and south of Ukraine, there is scarcely a word of Ukrainian spoken.


13 posted on 12/15/2013 5:37:07 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: The_Reader_David

Ukrainians in the west are primarily Catholic - those in the east are Orthodox.


14 posted on 12/15/2013 5:39:07 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: The_Reader_David

Easy money on USA having a hand in the protests to separate Ukraine from Moscow. Most VIP goal of US foreign policy is to destabilize Russia by any means necessary including arming Chechen and other Islamics. Nabucco vs South Stream Pipelines also compete for same customers eventually.


15 posted on 12/15/2013 5:40:25 PM PST by x_plus_one
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To: x_plus_one

Obama and Putin are butt buddies. They have the same new world order goals. A weak US and a stronger everyone else.


16 posted on 12/15/2013 5:44:58 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Timedrifter
the EU pact would mean massive shutdowns of industry since the Ukrainian manufactures could never compete with German, Dutch, and even French industries.

Ukrainian agriculture will be also unable to compete with far more advanced farmers of Poland, Hungary, and other neighboring countries. This could be corrected by investments, but who is going to invest in conditions of overproduction?

I believe those in Ukraine who advocate for EU are simply planning to cross the border to wealthier countries before the ink has dried on the agreement. But will they be allowed to do that?

I can understand, though, that people are desperate for a change, so they are grasping at straws. However neither they, nor their country, are needed in EU. This is why the Ukrainian government is considering ties with Russia - they are better matched, and they have mutual interests.

17 posted on 12/15/2013 5:53:41 PM PST by Greysard
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To: Timedrifter

Likely true. Ukrainian industry does very well because of its relative isolation from competition.


18 posted on 12/15/2013 5:54:54 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: Greysard
I can understand, though, that people are desperate for a change, so they are grasping at straws. However neither they, nor their country, are needed in EU. This is why the Ukrainian government is considering ties with Russia - they are better matched, and they have mutual interests.

In other words, if only these people "grasping at straws" could be made to understand that Vladi knows what's best for them . . . to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs, right?

19 posted on 12/15/2013 5:58:42 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: ETL

If this thread goes much farther, you and I will have to check our meals for polonium-210.


20 posted on 12/15/2013 6:01:42 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Greysard

but who is going to invest in conditions of overproduction?

China buys 5 percent of Ukraine’s land
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/09/23/China-buys-5-percent-of-Ukraines-land/5941379959745/


21 posted on 12/15/2013 6:02:51 PM PST by tlozo
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To: 1rudeboy

How anyone could be an admirer of that murderous thug, KGB Putin, is beyond me. Especially here on FR.


22 posted on 12/15/2013 6:07:46 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: ETL

Well, how long have you been here? I can tell you some history.


23 posted on 12/15/2013 6:08:36 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Greysard

I agree with you. Ukraine mainly suffers from a management and corruption problem. They have tremendous potential as a country, but never seem to achieve it.

You did see a similar thing in Poland, a lot of Poles advocated for the EU as a jumping platform to immigrate to Britain and France. Same for Bulgarians and Romanians. These are people who live in countries that haven’t done well economically for a long time, and joining the EU means limitless travel to richer member states where they can undercut native workers a lot of the time (no slant on them, they do what they have to for their families). Although this is just a trade deal for now, we all know its a stepping stone to full-fledged membership and that all-important open-border pass.
It does surprise me that more of Ukraine’s leaders aren’t for the EU deal. If it did turn into membership, they might reap similar benefits to Mexico’s political establishment when they started flooding across our borders and sending money back home.

Ukraine should tread carefully when forging trade agreements with anyone, careful to keep their sovereignty intact. Nothing is worse than when your country is vulnerable to the whims of people you have no control over. Putin clearly already has leverage over Ukraine because of the gas lines, so I would be cautious of any kind of ‘Eurasian Trade Bloc’ deals that might expand that influence.

You are definitely seeing an east-west divide in Ukraine on this, and it is centered around economic and cultural differences between the geographical areas. It’s understandable that the easterners are worried about this. They will likely lose their Russian-linked livelihoods should Ukraine take the EU deal. I would question becoming involved in an organization in which many member states want out right now.
They burned EU flags across Hungary recently, mainly a sign of the Jobbik rise. Anti-EU sentiment is also at an all-time high in the UK, and the Netherlands seems to be angling to give an anti-EU party a large share of the vote in the next election.

Personally, I can see the whole China-Japan showdown coming to a head before this thing sorts itself out.


24 posted on 12/15/2013 6:12:29 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: 1rudeboy

I’m aware that there are some here. I just can’t understand how they’re allowed to stay and push their pro-Putin BS. I mean, there are probably people here who believe their crap, especially the younger members.


25 posted on 12/15/2013 6:14:37 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: 1rudeboy

No. Putin doesn’t know what’s best for Ukraine, nor does he care. He’s doing what’s best for Russia. What would you expect him to do? And the EU leaders are hardly seeking this deal because they care about Ukraine. They have their own ends.

Unfortunately with a country that is really split East and West, one deal will benefit the westerners and harm the easterners, and vice versa.


26 posted on 12/15/2013 6:15:28 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon

So, would you care to expand our discussion to include, say, Texas, or California?


27 posted on 12/15/2013 6:18:41 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Viennacon

Actually “50 percent of Ukrainians in the east and south—regions where the populations tend to be more sympathetic to Russia—support joining the European Union”

Its not about ethnicity its about people wanting a better standard of living. Ukraine already has tremendous ties with Russia. Its not working.

Poll http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/11/18-viktor-yanukovych-losing-europe-ukrainian-public-pifer-thoburn


28 posted on 12/15/2013 6:24:58 PM PST by tlozo
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To: 1rudeboy; All

Leading to the question: what is more disconcerting—fat women fainting at Obama rallies, or FReepers fainting at the mention of their hero, Vladimir Putin?


This coming from the biggest supporter of Communist China and the Communist Chinese....Ni Hao, Chairman Mao

The EU has failed...and no matter how much taxpayer money or US wealth you throw at it....it still is a failure.

I’d sure be very leery of any nation joining the group that most demonstrates the total failure of Free Trade.

Even scarier, Obama is pushing a US-EU Free Trade pact which would absolutely destroy whats left of the US economy. The Eu is bad for the US, and bad for Ukraine


29 posted on 12/15/2013 6:31:22 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Einstein was right)
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To: The_Reader_David
Overall, 5/8 of the Ukrainian population listed as non-religious. Among the religious, the main split seems to be Orthodox/Kiev Patriarchate, 32.8%, versus Orthodox/Moscow Patriarchate, 29.4%. Greek Catholic = Uniate 14.1%. (From Wikipedia and World Almanac.)

The political split correlates better with languages.

30 posted on 12/15/2013 6:32:12 PM PST by omega4412
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To: 1rudeboy

In what way? The issue is not black and white in Ukraine. The people who work in the industrial east have a lot to lose if Putin puts some kind of unofficial embargo on them, but the west has failed to make any economic headway and feels this deal with the EU may alleviate their troubles, (as I said, I think many just want to leave Ukraine altogether).

Of course Texas and California, while both being states, do have economies that run differently, but you don’t have the same dynamic that you do with Ukraine. America is (for now), the most economically powerful nation in the world. We pretty much set the trend for trade worldwide, and we don’t have anything comparable to the situation where we are being torn between two vastly economically superior powers.
Ukraine is hobbled by its internal problems. Compare it to Belarus. Belarus has many of the same disadvantages economically. Its not very successful, but General Lukashenko keeps the country ticking over because the people are largely of a Russian mindset with little division among them, and the entire country has gained as Russia has rebuilt itself.
Ukraine is instead racked with political strife and division, a tense language barrier between east and west, religious and cultural differences, a democracy which doesn’t function very effectively, and trade ties with Russia that often fail to benefit the westerners.

In retrospect, Ukraine was a poorly conceived country after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They drew the borders wrong.


31 posted on 12/15/2013 6:32:52 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: SeminoleCounty
I forgot to add: SeminoleCounty fainting at the sight of one of my posts.

Feel free (no pun intended) at any time to point to a post where I support Communist China . . . you don't even have to make me the "biggest."

[For newcomers late to this discussion, SeminoleCounty believes I support China because I oppose his efforts to increase your taxes.]

32 posted on 12/15/2013 6:35:16 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: SeminoleCounty

The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward. None of those countries makes anything anymore. A lot of them have transferred to service economies notoriously vulnerable to recessions and collapses. British banking sector is a good example. Germany does better than the rest in that they still do big manufacturing.

The EU is a lot like us in that they live off their good name, and a population with expensive tastes. If a wind howls hard enough, it’ll blow away like pickup sticks. Where will such an economic hurricane come from? Likely the giant in the West with almost 20 trillion dollars in debt and a Marxist curtain-hanger in the White House.


33 posted on 12/15/2013 6:38:21 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: ETL

Its not so much pro-Putin BS....so much as folks like to see a leader of a nation actually stand up for their nation...and not go chicken-feces like the Dems and RINOs do here.

Putin is no nice guy....but he is not going to let his nation be walked over.

Of course, Rudeboy is one of the biggest supporters of Communism and Globalism around here. Kinda hypocritical to be attacking folks who say something positive about Putin


34 posted on 12/15/2013 6:40:01 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Einstein was right)
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To: SeminoleCounty

Oh, just admit . . . when you see a photo of Vladi you touch yourself.


35 posted on 12/15/2013 6:43:15 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Viennacon
“The people who work in the industrial east have a lot to lose”

Industrial east has a lot to lose because they are not competitive with EU countries. But if Ukraine walls itself off from competition, how will the industry ever become capable of competing globally? If you look at countries like Poland and Hungary in the 1990s, they did not appear to have a chance of competing with German or EU companies. But Poland and Hungary
joined the European Union and both found that economic integration, which forced their industries and exporters to become more efficient and competitive, helped grow and strengthen their economies — promoting significant increases in living standards.

36 posted on 12/15/2013 6:43:56 PM PST by tlozo
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To: 1rudeboy

You willing to put tarifs on the Communist Chinese...after their trade barriers on US products...after the WTO has ruled against Communist China and in favor of the US? You willing to put tariffs on the Communist Chinese to alleviate the huge trade deficits with them? Are you willing to put tariffs on the Communist Chinese for their threats to Japan and other Asian nations?

If any of these answers are no....you are a supporter of Communist China.

You have no business criticizing anyone who isn’t negative about Putin...look who you support....


37 posted on 12/15/2013 6:45:13 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Einstein was right)
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To: Viennacon

“The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward.”

So its better to be economically tied to Russia?


38 posted on 12/15/2013 6:48:12 PM PST by tlozo
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To: Viennacon

The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward. None of those countries makes anything anymore. A lot of them have transferred to service economies notoriously vulnerable to recessions and collapses. British banking sector is a good example. Germany does better than the rest in that they still do big manufacturing.

The EU is a lot like us in that they live off their good name, and a population with expensive tastes. If a wind howls hard enough, it’ll blow away like pickup sticks. Where will such an economic hurricane come from? Likely the giant in the West with almost 20 trillion dollars in debt and a Marxist curtain-hanger in the White House.


Good points in all

Free Trade just does not work. There is no evidence it works...just a lot of theory from liberal professors at liberal universities. But, actual evidence it does work, there is none at all

The nation that realizes this sooner will be the nation that becomes the economic giant in the 21st Century


39 posted on 12/15/2013 6:50:05 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Einstein was right)
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To: kronos77

Nothing is stopping these peasants from moving to Russia.


40 posted on 12/15/2013 6:51:58 PM PST by Clemenza ("History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil governm)
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To: tlozo

“The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward.”

So its better to be economically tied to Russia?


Since Ukraine gets most of its energy from Russia, they may have no choice but lean towards Russia. The EU cannot supply Ukraine with the energy lost from Russia.


41 posted on 12/15/2013 6:52:49 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Einstein was right)
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To: SeminoleCounty

I have been pretty harshly criticized as a ‘Putin boot-licker’ simply for complementing his domestic policy and what seems like genuine patriotism. I can understand many Freepers still thinking of things in Cold-War terms, but the world is not as clear cut as it was back then nowadays.

When Hosni Mubarak was ousted from power, I gave my voice to the side that said Egypt was better off with him. Now, looking at Mubarak’s economic policy, the man was a disaster. He had also brutalized his people in some ways, or at least looked the other way as it had occurred. What’s more, he had plundered from his nation’s wealth to gild his own palaces. But still, I complemented him on the fact that I think he did genuinely care about Egypt’s future and was the only force who kept the Muslim Brotherhood out of power.

Lines cannot be so clearly drawn between good and bad in the modern world. Putin is an oligarch. He does shield political and economic corruption from criticism. He has likely ordered assassinations and imprisonments. His election, though I doubt it was stolen (none of his opponents are very impressive or compelling), was definitely tinged with fraud and illegalities.
But I can see some of the good things he has done for a country that often struggles to find its identity and place in the world.

Must we always label good and evil so plainly, or can’t we take complicated individuals at face value, and try to understand them more as we move forward with hopes that in the future, we can tone down hostilities between two countries that both have a lot to offer?


42 posted on 12/15/2013 6:54:49 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: SeminoleCounty

“Since Ukraine gets most of its energy from Russia, they may have no choice but lean towards Russia.”

Germany gets its gas from Russia. They didn’t have to join Russia’s Eurasian Union. You can, just buy gas from a country.


43 posted on 12/15/2013 7:07:19 PM PST by tlozo
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To: SeminoleCounty

And the irony is astounding. The first trade agreement that you have ever supported on this website was dictated by Vladimir Putin. LOLOL


44 posted on 12/15/2013 7:07:39 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: tlozo

Poland and Hungary have both grown economically since integration (Poland more-so), but I still would not say they’ve seen any kind of national miracle occur. Just look at the amount of Poles who leave Poland to go to the UK. Why do they do that? Poland will always be competing with their western neighbors for the same trade, and will always be playing second fiddle to countries like Germany.
Hungary also suffered horribly during the recession, which is why there has been a backlash against the EU there.

And such plays have not benefited every country involved. Look at Greece, where its competitiveness has essentially hit zero. The EU has essentially killed Greece by allowing it to scrounge off of the north until the time came to pay the piper. Now the Greek population has no idea how to create wealth anymore.

I don’t think its such a bad idea either to have culturally similar countries promote trade amongst themselves first. We have always had strong trade ties with the UK because of that cultural link, even though we were once bitter rivals. Ukraine is really the natural trade partner of Russia owing to the close proximity and strong agricultural potential of Ukraine. It has been called the bread basket on more than one occasion, and they are a great customer for Russian gas.
In fact, I’d argue one of the EUs biggest flaws is it does lack that cultural link. The way Southern European economies like Spain and Italy are run was never going to work well with the Northern economies like Germany and Denmark. Eventually, the south was going to become that son who stays at home until he’s thirty and never does the dishes.


45 posted on 12/15/2013 7:08:12 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon

No one will call you a “Putin boot-licker” unless you offer him a sovereign nation in order to appease him.


46 posted on 12/15/2013 7:10:27 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: tlozo

In the long run, yes. If the current trajectory continues, Russia will see its demographic slide reverse, and that has been the real hindrance to its economy. Like Japan, Russians just don’t have enough kids.
Meanwhile, Europe is just seeing a population transfer as the natives die off and leave in mass exodus, and third world (usually Muslim) immigrants flood in.

A lot of it depends on your economic perspective. What do you think the world economy will look like in 30 years? If you think we’ll have hover-cars made in Germany, and Paris will be the economic capital of the west, then the deal sounds like a no-brainer.
But, if you think we are entering a global downturn where all of the ‘funny money’ dries up, and economic stability is much more dependent upon natural resources and manpower than zeroes on Wall Street, then it is wiser to gravitate towards Russia. Though it is never wise to hand over sovereignty or political power to foreigners in ANY circumstance.


47 posted on 12/15/2013 7:14:38 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon

Its ridiculous to tell people in Ukraine to keep suffering because in thirty years Russian economy may pick up.


48 posted on 12/15/2013 7:56:01 PM PST by tlozo
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To: tlozo

In the east, they aren’t suffering.


49 posted on 12/15/2013 8:05:31 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: omega4412; goldstategop

Thanks to omega4412 for giving us the general population figures for comparison, and to goldstategop for pointing out the geographic distribution I already knews. Now, does anyone have a religious (or even geographic) breakdown of the pro-E.U. faction in comparison with the Ukrainian population as a whole? That was my question, not anything about the religious demographics of Ukraine per se.


50 posted on 12/15/2013 8:17:43 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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