Skip to comments.NTSB: Hawaii plane floated 25 mins, then sank.
Posted on 01/01/2014 3:18:25 PM PST by RckyRaCoCo
click here to read article
Yep, you’re right. Thanks for that link.
I’ve seen a list of records that the NTSB is exempted from disclosing in FOIA requests, and it includes records involving a right to privacy that outweighs the public interest, including autopsies. But the “public interest” in regards to NTSB investigations deals with the safety of transportation, not a criminal investigation.
A coroner’s report is compelled by state law in instances where it is assumed there is a public interest. The public interest in the results of a compelled autopsy is potential crimes and accountability. If that public interest wasn’t so justifiable and compelling, the autopsies wouldn’t be legally required. A coroner’s report would automatically have a public interest that outweighs any privacy concerns.
The NTSB’s role is to treat the EVIDENCE as if it was a crime scene. Determining cause of death for the victims is beyond their job.
But there was a link at the bottom of the page you gave me; it led to a page with a paragraph or two as a “teaser” and then you have to be a subscriber to see the rest. In that paragraph it said, “Spokesman Eric Weiss said a helicopter spotted what’s suspected to be the downed Cessna Grand Caravan about 400 to 500 yards off the north shore of Molokai at a depth of about 60 to 70 feet. The agency initially said recovery would be unlikely because the wreckage, belonging to Makani Kai Air, was thought to be at a greater depth. Login for more...”
It’s interesting that they refer to the wreckage as belonging to Makani Kai, because even though it belongs to Makani Kai, the wreckage site is to be considered by the NTSB as a crime scene that has to be secured. Makani Kai does not have jurisdiction to do anything with “their property” until it has been released to them by the NTSB. So the DC spokesman for the NTSB, Weiss, is trying to dance around the issue of who is supposed to have access to those remains. NTSB regulations regarding accident scenes can be read at http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8020.11C.pdf
Makani Kai Air hired a helicopter to find that wreckage. They arranged for the salvage team to come get it. They helped lift it out of the water. It was disassembled before the salvage team got it out of the water - the engine from the rest of the wreckage, which would NOT happen by banging against rocks, even if there was wave action to bang it against rocks.
The NTSB wouldn’t tell anybody how the wreckage was found (see http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/crashed-plane-off-molokai-spotted-fuddys-body-transported-to-oahu/-/8905354/23515534/-/gv3m1w/-/index.html#ixzz2pTBBgFf7 ), who arranged for the salvage crew, or anything else. But it was ALL arranged, overseen, and done by Makani Kai Air (see http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/salvage-crew-begins-recovery-of-crashed-molokai-plane/-/8905354/23533820/-/14icjd9/-/index.html#ixzz2pTEpYtVl ), not the NTSB who was legally required to secure the crime scene from any tampering by Makani Kai Air or anybody else.
Turns out that the Makani Kai maintenance guy will be part of the NTSB team that takes apart and examines the engine in Canada at the end of this month. (see http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/report-confirms-pilots-account-in-molokai-emergency-landing/-/8905354/23717130/-/sy2wnjz/-/index.html#ixzz2pT8i1D1a )If the wreckage was to be considered a crime scene, the mechanic would have to be considered one of the prime suspects for any intentional sabotage - and yet he is going to be doing the investigation? The potential “suspects” have been allowed to find, dismantle, move, and turn in the evidence, and now they are being allowed to conduct the investigation into whether they committed sabotage.
Lang also claims they “contacted the Moloka’i tower for clearance just before 3:30 p.m. Wednesday. They say the tower operator asked if they were able to hear an “ELT” or Emergency Locator Transmitter.” But when they landed at the airport 5 minutes later, there was no one around. IOW, there was at least one person in the tower who knew there had been a crash but disappeared from the scene within moments. Who called the Coast Guard and the fire department? This thing gets weirder and weirder.
Unbelievable. Lawlessness surrounds Obama like vultures around carrion.
Unless they don’t want it to be a crime scene.
Yes, it does.
Who will tell us what really happened? The NTSB is only supposed to find the cause of the accident. Who is supposed to investigate whether crimes were committed?
The Maui Police Department claimed publicly the day after Fuddy’s death that her body was retrieved from the wreckage - furthering the misperception that she died in the plane crash, not afterwards. It was only when the witnesses came forward, with stories refuting that initial claim, that we found the spokesman for Fuddy’s official “coroner” was not telling us the truth. Are those the people who are going to investigate and tell us the truth about who did or didn’t get immediate help for those crash victims?
The regulations say that if there is fire or a death (among other things) there has to be an extensive investigation and the scene needs to be treated as a crime scene. Kawasaki claimed that “”I know is there was a bang and I had an annunciator panel that was nothing but red and yellow lights, and a fire warning was going off, and I was like ‘okay I’m in trouble,’” (see http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/report-confirms-pilots-account-in-molokai-emergency-landing/-/8905354/23717130/-/sy2wnjz/-/index.html#ixzz2pT8i1D1a )
So even if Fuddy’s death was found to be unrelated to the crash, the area would still have to be treated as a crime scene according to the regulations, because the pilot reported that a fire warning had gone off.
But then, at least one passenger on the Cessna 208 that went down on Oct 21 (less than 25 miles away from this accident) reported that there were sparks so that should have been treated as a crime scene also. Instead, the wreckage was left unattended overnight and the air company (Mokulele Express) was allowed to move the wreckage to a vacant lot. The NTSB official at that time said that if there was going to be an in-depth investigation the company would be responsible to move the aircraft (at that point there should have been no question of whether there would be an extensive investigation). But even though they’ve had the intact plane in a hangar for inspection and it was known that engine failure was the problem, they haven’t come up with a cause for the engine failure in the past 2 1/2 months.
Woah.... excellent analysis!
Deserves its own topic!
Here’s what strikes me. The autopsy failed to determine a cause of death. So the investigation continues. According to the NTSB spokesman, the investigation consists of interviewing ppl who were in the water w Fuddy.
Now how are these ppl, the survivors, supposed to know about how & why Fuddy died? According to her assistant, she bobbed around alive in the water for a while & then suddenly passed away. If that’s true, what can any of the other survivors add/contribute? There’s no info there; she just died.
The only way the input of her fellow survivors cd be dispositive is if foul play is suspected. Then it wd be a case of somebody having seen something, & they’ll just keep on interviewing until they find out what it may have been.
That’s how it looks to me, anyway. Though who can believe anything these ppl tell us; lies are the stock and trade of anybody even remotely connected to that most pathological of all liars, Obama.
I think the NTSB guy was trying to say that their responsibility is to check out the plane accident, which involves talking to the victims, and there could be information from the witnesses that might help the coroner put pieces together. And that’s the only connection between the NTSB and the coroner’s job of finding a cause of death. The coroner could ask the NTSB for clues from the witnesses if that would be helpful, but the NTSB isn’t collecting information for the express purpose of helping find the cause of death.
In the same way, the coroner is not supposed to find out what caused the accident. He’s supposed to find the cause of death. But if something with Fuddy’s body and/or cause of death is suspicious it could be a clue for the NTSB regarding what caused the accident. If Fuddy died of poisoning, for instance, the NTSB should know that sabotage is much more likely than if it was a truly natural death.
So there’s some interplay between the Police Dept/Coroner and the NTSB but they actually do have separate, distinctive roles that should not be confused. I think that’s what the NTSB was trying to communicate.
The coroner should be able to tell us whether Fuddy had effects from hypothermia, whether she had a heart attack, stroke, aneurysm, whether she drowned, etc.
It was kind of funny, reading in a place I don’t usually read, where somebody was frustrated because they knew the coroner was going to come out with a result just like they do with celebrities - saying such-and-so is the cause of death, pending toxicology results - and the “crazy birthers” were going to consider it odd that they came up with a cause of death before all the evidence was in. What’s funny is that this DIDN’T happen. We were saying that if there was an obvious cause of death such as drowning, heart attack, etc, they should say that is the cause of death, pending the results of the toxicology tests to rule out any foul play. The fact that they DIDN’T report these other obvious causes of death - like they do with celebrities, as noted by this anti-birther - suggests that there WEREN’T ANY, and that the death ISN”T explained by heart attack, stroke, aneurysm, hypothermia, etc.
Yes, in a sane world but this is hussein’s HI which means up is down.
“the death ISNT explained by heart attack, stroke, aneurysm, hypothermia, etc.”
Totally agree. If death were a result of any of the above, the autopsy wd have identified the cause. So whatever Fuddy died of, it wasn’t something the average autopsy cd reveal.
I don’t know why you read what anti-birthers are saying, though. They are a hateful, joyless & ignorant bunch. I don’t waste time finding out what brand of hate they happen to be spewing on any given day.
There needs to be a investigation to see if this plane was not taken down by laser weapons.
Usually I’m not all that interested either, but sometimes the input they give points me in directions I wouldn’t otherwise check out. Their information is often very helpful.
One of them cited an article in which Phillip Hollstein said he waited a half-hour before he decided to swim for shore. The link they gave was already scrubbed from the internet everywhere it was cross-linked. So I wasn’t able to check out whether Hollstein actually claimed that. If he did, it would suggest that Fuddy was fine for a half hour after entering the water, giving her less time to drift away from the others, unless the rescue was later than first thought - which would add to the question of whether the death was reported before it could have been known to happen.
Of course, it might support the hypothermia theory, except that the coroner should be able to find a cause of death if it was hypothermia-related. lol.
I’m not afraid of new information because new information usually just shows up the discrepancies more and more.
The scrubbing of articles from the web is bothersome. I really thought I remembered a report saying they had done CPR on Fuddy, which would go along with the claims that the Coast Guard rescued 3 alive and the Fire Dept crews rescued 5 alive (leaving Hollstein who wasn’t picked up by anybody, to finish out the 9 people on board, all alive). But of course that would contradict the report by the Coast Guard guy, that he didn’t find a pulse in Fuddy. I can’t find whatever it was that made me think they gave her CPR, so either I was imagining things, or it’s been scrubbed now, or maybe I just can’t come up with the right search terms to find it. I’ll figure I must have been mistaken but I hate knowing that information gets scrubbed so I have no way of knowing.
If you’re getting reliable info from the anti-birthers, I can understand it. I’d want to see a firsthand source on that ‘half an hr wait’, though. Doesn’t sound like it happened. Here’s a fairly detailed acct, obviously written prior to the salvage operation, that makes it sound as if Holstein didn’t wait all that long:
Thanks very much Fred. I’m still looking for links between el rukin’s Jeff Fort and zero but about all I can find is a remote link between the rukins Fort and the bent axel. I’m sure I have missed something. I appreciate your efforts. You guys are really on the ball and have the research down pat.
Silly question I know but has the MSM picked up on this story at all? If they do they are bound to have a huge political bent offered from the regime,it would be interesting to see how they are attempting to hide all this.
“Okubo said the department’s deputy
director, Keith Yamamoto, also had been booked on the flight.”
The above seems interesting from USA today. Was this flight supposed to be a twofer?
Once again no mention of the irony of only Fuddy dying which is the crux of the story yet never mentioned.
Amazing how the mantra of only straight news/lite can kick in whenever the regime is in jeopardy.
It should be noted that team Arpaio has disputed some of Vogt's claims in the past.
US news and world report is probably the most interesting.They bring up Cruz as having the same problem as zero and try and take out Taitz and Trumph as just whacko birthers. Interesting to say the least.
Taitz hastily wrote a letter Thursday to Fuddy's deputy, Keith Yamamoto, inquiring about the specifics of department policy for releasing long-form birth certificates. Yamamoto was on board the plane and told Catholic priest Patrick Killilea he was holding Fuddy's hand when she died, Killilea told KITV.
I didn't know that Yamamoto was on the plane and moreover holding Fuddys hand as she died, interesting to say the least.
Yes, it was reported from day one that her deputy was aboard and held her hand until she let go and drifted away. Of course, that would mean he let go of her hand and knew she was dead which is never said. Time wise, the reports indicate she floated away about the hour mark so that left another half hour before rescue got there. Then one rescuer got to her and passed her up because she was dead and then later the second guy got her. We don’t know how long the rescue lasted but let’s say at the very least, she had been dead an hour before she was out of the ocean. Excuse me, but how the heck would the pilot not have known she was dead? Remember, he didn’t know and was shocked when he was later informed. Did Keith not holler out for help? Wouldn’t the pilot and 6 passengers (minus the swimmer) constantly keep asking each other if they were ok and where was Fuddy or were they merely relaxing enjoying the sunshine? Makes no sense.
Doug Vogt told Pastor Dr. James Manning while being interviewed on The Manning Report internet radio program that he believed that the plane was sabotaged with a small bomb with the intent that it go down with no survivors in a zone (radio dead spot) where it would not be missed until after it did not arrive as expected. He said that he believes that pilot’s extraordinary skill saved the survivors.
Doug Vogt has an ongoing case in the Seattle area courts based on misprision of felony statutes in which he names the alleged forgers of aka obama’s birth certificate, but the exact details are revealed in a sealed document only available to the court. He says Fuddy is named in his case, but he did not reveal if she was named as one of the forgers (he did say that the individual who graphically created the forgery was supplied the data to put on it by someone else).
Three more oddities:
1) the couple in the other plane said the tower asked about the downed plane so the tower knew there had been an accident. Duh, it happened at takeoff and laned right out in front of the airport. But, before the couple were able to land mere moments later, the tower person/persons had disappeared.
2) due to insurance, law suits and I’m sure Coast Guard and LE requirements everyone would have to be taken to the hospital. We know the Coast Guard didn’t take the pilot because his son took him. There were at least two passengers who refused medical attention. We still have the freedom to refuse but you’d think the Coast Guard helicopters would have automatically landed at the hospital and then let the hospital handle the refusal paperwork. It’s the not taking everyone to the hospital that doesn’t sit right.
3) it’d be nice to know who those other passengers were or did they disappear like the tower person.
So Fuddy is named in a Seattlle court case, "mysteriously dies", while her # 2 man holds her hand and no media is curious? I don't think so!
Where did these tower guys go! No one curious in Hawaii or DBM I guess. Just another job left to the New Media. Why am I surprised.
Maybe they heard what happened to the tower operator at the Dubrovnik airport after Ron Brown's plane went down and decided they didn't want to end up committing "suicide"?
The oddities of those that surround “the One” continue to mount.
Freepmail sent to you guys.
Airport use: Open to the public
Activation date: 10/1941
Sectional chart: HAWAIIAN ISLANDS
Control tower: no
ARTCC: HONOLULU CONTROL FACILITY CENTER
FSS: HONOLULU FLIGHT SERVICE STATION
NOTAMs facility: MKK (NOTAM-D service available)
Attendance: MON-FRI 0700-1530
Right. I had looked up information about this also, this afternoon. They have to use the control tower at the Molokai Airport. I’ve been looking up articles that have been scrubbed from the Google results and/or from the web, finding them cited in other places and learning all kinds of stuff. Mark Miller, DOH Administrator for Kalaupapa, said they were using the airport for triage. He must have been talking about the Kalaupapa Airport. From there they took people to the Molokai Medical Center or else to Honolulu. But they took Fuddy and Yamamoto to this “care center” first, where the priest gave conditional last rites to Fuddy and consoled a distraught Yamamoto. The priest said he gave conditional last rites because he didn’t know when Fuddy died but he understood she might have been dead for up to 2 hours by that time. Miller claimed that everybody was accounted for by 4:30pm, with Fuddy and a man in the Coast Guard helicopter. The man survived but they couldn’t revive Fuddy, he said.
The scrubbed articles I’m finding raise a lot of questions, to say the least. The accounts of Miller, Lang, Kawasaki, and Hollstein have a lot of discrepancies between them.
The only thing that makes sense so far is why there was no one at the Kalaupapa airport, when the helicopter pilot went back there looking for help...they close at 15.30.
Lang and Thomson were on their way to visit friends in Maui and had contacted the Molokai tower for clearance just before 3:30 p.m. Wednesday. They say the tower operator asked if they were able to hear an ELT or Emergency Locator Transmitter. They tuned into the signal, but it was faint so they say they began searching for it and scanning the area for wreckage.
The couple says they reached Kalaupapa about five minutes later and spotted something in the water off the North-West tip of the peninsula near the beginning of runway 5.
The helicopter pilot was talking to the tower at Molokai Airport, not KALAUPAPA airport, which closes at 15.30 and there was no one in attendance.
So who notified MOLOKAI there had been an accident? How did they know there was a need to identify an Emergency Locater Transmitter signal? That was the reason why the helicopter pilot went looking for the aircraft. He didn't just stumble across it...
It must have been the Pilot of the Cessna who contacted MOLOKAI TOWER, right?
JUST BEFORE 3.30 PLUS 5 MINUTES.
Yeah, Lang says he contacted the tower operator at Molokai when they found the downed plane. That must have been around 3:30. It wasn’t clear which airport they went to but it makes sense if it was the Kalaupapa Airport and nobody was there. It doesn’t make sense, though, that the tower operator at Molokai knew there was a plane in the ocean at 3:30 but according to Mark Miller, nobody alerted emergency crews until a navy plane just happened to be doing touch-and-goes and reported the crash to the Coast Guard and fire crews.
IN #114 YOU WROTE:
“According to the timeline the NTSB is giving now (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3107346/posts ), help crews didnt even ARRIVE to check out the condition of the victims until 80 minutes after the crash - or 5:05pm. Thats 40 minutes after the crash was reported in the news and 25 minutes after it was reported in the news that there was one casualty. If the NTSB timeline is believed the rescue workers still had to pass Fuddy by, check out others, go back to Fuddy and determine her to be dead, and report it to the news reporter. If that whole process took 30 minutes, then the NTSB timeline would have the news reporting one dead almost an hour before anybody would have determined and reported that.”
There can only be one possible explanation for that...someone on that aircraft, now in the water, had a direct line to the reporter. (Maybe I’m being glib, but what else?)
If that article comes up for you, cut and paste it here, all I see is a blank blue page.
Oops. That wasn’t very clear. Kawasaki wasn’t able to contact anybody because of the cliffs that block reception there, but the planes have built-in electronic locator transmitters that are activated when there is enough force to suggest a crash. That must have been giving a faint signal to the Molokai tower, which the operator asked Lang about when he called for clearance to go to Maui. When Lang found the downed plane he contacted the Molokai tower operator again to tell him/her there was a plane down in the water.
Looking at the webpages for the Maui Co Fire Department, they have 3 fire stations on Molokai but it doesn’t look like they have helicopters. The county says they have one helicopter and 3 rescue boats. Probably the helicopter is on Maui. Maybe each of the 3 islands in the county (Maui, Molokai, and Lanai) has a rescue boat. The Coast Guard came helicopters, plane, boats, and crews came from Oahu. The fire crew was from Molokai.
The actual NTSB report says the passengers were rescued within 80 minutes.
On December 11, 2013, at 1522 Hawaiian standard time, a Cessna 208B, N687MA, sustained substantial damage following a loss of engine power and ditching into the Pacific near Kalaupapa, Hawaii.
did you see this, posted way back?
Also check out comment #91
ok, gotcha, and they all took their time...and arrived about an hour later?
The crew of a training exercise released smoke flares in the water...
So it was the news reports that were out of synch with what happened?
The language in the report is not clear, whether 80 minutes later was when they started rescuing or finished rescuing, or what the 80 minutes was after. A person would need some concrete times for various events in order to know what they mean. It sounds like the report itself is just reiterating what Kawasaki said had happened.
So we’re stuck with the possibility that someone leaked the contents of a sealed document before the court in Seattle in which dear old deceased Fuddy was mentioned as a possible witness related to the ongoing saga of the dubious identity of zero...and she was left in the water with her companions for an undetermined amount of time, maybe for an hour and when the rescuers did arrive, they saw she was unresponsive and just passed her by and picked up someone else first...is that how it goes?
Thanks for finding there was no tower there. If the plane departed at the scheduled time of 3:35 and crashed a minute later, the airport personnel didn’t tarry getting the front door locked and gone by 3:30. Maybe it’s just me, but I would have at least waited to make sure my last plane got off ok and would have seen it coming back. Surely, the other airport tower would have had an emergency number for the airport personnel there to report the signal. All the airports around here are little nothings so aren’t staffed after 5, if at all, but they have emergency numbers. Ok, there are mountains but it’s still a strange set of events.
by Reynold Ruslan FELDMAN, ph.d
In May 1961, a year after receiving my B.A. in English, I was opened in Subud. That took place in Chicago. At the time I was also attending the Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Hindu Fellowship near where I lived. Back at Yale Graduate School that fall and an isolated member, I began studying Indonesian and hanging around with people who looked like Bapak. It wasnt until the fall of 1969 in Honolulu, with Mas Prio Hartono a recent houseguest, that I first tried the Muslim Ramadan Fast. It was challenging, to say the least, with world-class headaches appearing every day by three. But with Muslim students and professors at the East-West Center, where I was working, for companions, it was a dramatic experiment for meone that I have since repeated 36 times.
Members said this very individualized and personal connection with God is received through "latihan kejiwaan" Indonesian for spiritual exercises. Members meet twice a week for the exercises, which last for about 30 minutes. Through the latihan, "we're receiving in a very intense way . . . what it feels like to be guided by God," Feldman said.
Regional helper and member of the Subud faith Deliana Fuddy, right, meditates at one of the group's meetings at Richards Street YWCA. Meditation is followed by spiritual exercises. Kyle Sackowski The Honolulu Advertiser
I’m not sure if this bit of trivia has been addressed here, but Loretta’s mother was also employed by the Hawaii Department of Health as a computer programmmer. She died in 1997.
Marjorie Fuddy, 70, of Kamiloloa, Molokai, a state Department of Health computer programmer, died Sunday. She was born in Leichhardt, Australia. She is survived by daughters the Rev. Lynette Schaefer, Loretta Fuddy and Cynthia Bunch; sons Philip Golderman and Lewis Fuddy; brother Keith Ireland; sisters Sylvia Laverly and Dollie Bierley, seven grandchildren and a great-grandchild. Scattering of ashes: 10 a.m. tomorrow at Camp Mokuleia. Memorial services: 4 p.m. Wednesday at Grace Episcopal Church, Hoolehua. No flowers. Donations suggested to Camp Mokuleia Campership Fund.
I totally agree, last plane off the tarmac, slam the door and outa there. I can imagine how frustrated the pilot of the chopper must have been, finding the place deserted.
According to http://mauitvnews.com/blog/tag/molokai-plane-crash/ :
“Coast Guard watchstanders at the Joint Rescue Coordination Center received report of a plane crash with nine passengers aboard at 3:27 p.m. Wednesday.
The Coast Guard launched two MH-65 Dolphin helicopter aircrews and one HC-130 Hercules airplane crew from Coast Guard Air Station Barbers Point on Oahu. Coast Guard Cutters Ahi and Galveston Island, home-ported in Honolulu, and two 45-foot Response-Boat Medium crews from Station Maui were also dispatched to the scene.
Rescue swimmers from the Dolphin helicopters were deployed, rescuing three passengers in the water. Maui Fire Rescue rescued additional passengers.
Three people were transported by Dolphin helicopter crews to Honolulu for emergency medical services. Two people were transported by a Makani Kai company plane to Honolulu and the rest of the passengers remained on Molokai....
Today, Maui mayor Alan Arakawa extended his condolences to the victims family, including her sister, who is a part of the Maui County family and works as a Maui Police Department Chaplain on Molokai. “
Station Maui is on the south side of Maui, according to http://www.uscg.mil/d14/staMaui/Default.asp . Max speed for a Response Boat Medium is 42.5 knots, or 48.9 miles/hour. So it might have just taken the boats that long to get there. Helicopters and plane from Oahu, I don’t know. Seemed like Kawasaki thought it would take 1/2 hour, not an hour.
Sounds like Fuddy’s sister works directly with the Police Chief spokesman who claimed the day after the crash that Fuddy’s body was retrieved from the wreckage.