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Hospital won't aid transfer of girl on ventilator
Yahoo News ^ | Dec. 31, 2013 | Lisa Leff & Terry Collins (AP)

Posted on 01/02/2014 1:08:18 PM PST by Anton.Rutter

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To: GraceG

yes, it is strange that the media is not even asking what went wrong with the tonsillectomy (or recovery)...
these operations are quite commonplace and do not usually involve turning a child into a corpse

(I realize that mistakes can happen, also that sometimes there are unforeseen complications, I am only asking why the media has not thought to ask such questions)


101 posted on 01/02/2014 3:21:02 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: ifinnegan
She does not have rigor mortis, nor is she decomposing.

Her brain is not receiving blood. You can be assured it is decomposing.

102 posted on 01/02/2014 3:21:25 PM PST by Drew68
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To: gas_dr

is she decomposing? no. She is taking in oxygen and the body is doing o2/co2 exchange, the heart is beating, there is a pulse.

It s a gross distortion to say she’s a corpse.

You would think with all the cases of people coming out of vegetative comas, of states where there hans’t been brain function recorded, that people would err on the side of the possibility that it might be such a case, too.

Plenty of cases where docs said the person was gone, dead, etc and they come back. I actually am praying this is one of those cases.

I doubt the stubborn people will learn anything from it, though.


103 posted on 01/02/2014 3:21:39 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Drew68

How do you know her brain isn’t receiving blood/oxygen?


104 posted on 01/02/2014 3:23:01 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: faithhopecharity

Read my posts. This child did not have a simple tonsillectomy!


105 posted on 01/02/2014 3:24:25 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: PrairieLady2
Why not let her go with her parents and let them do what they feel is right?

The parents aren't asking to take their daughter home. They're demanding that she continue receiving long-term care. No facility capable of providing long-term care has offered to take her, most likely this is because she's deceased.

106 posted on 01/02/2014 3:25:58 PM PST by Drew68
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To: PrairieLady2

“If those parents want their baby to continue to receive care, then that’s THEIR business!”

Then they need to fill out the paperwork and find a facility. So far the family has submitted no paperwork, and no facility will take the body.


107 posted on 01/02/2014 3:28:30 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Drew68

__She does not have rigor mortis, nor is she decomposing.__

Her brain is not receiving blood. You can be assured it is decomposing.


Accepting your assertion for the sake of discussion, we then see the reason for the term brain dead.

As opposed to dead, which needs no qualifier


108 posted on 01/02/2014 3:28:50 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: gas_dr
I am indeed a real doctor, triple board certified and one of my boards happens to be neurocritical care.

I did not mean to cast aspersions on your honesty - I was just stating the obvious, this being the internet we have no way of knowing a poster's claims (for example, I am not actually Don Rodrigo, chasing Moors around with my lance). That said - I fully agreed with your comments and appreciated them. It included important technical details.

109 posted on 01/02/2014 3:30:24 PM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: Anton.Rutter

I understand the hospital’s position but quite frankly their PR spokesperson is a disaster. The PR guy is trying to win an argument that has no winners. Just suck it up, tell the media that all parties are painted in to a corner and there is no satisfactory resolution for anybody.


110 posted on 01/02/2014 3:31:57 PM PST by cornfedcowboy
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To: DoodleDawg
California has tort reform. Non-economic damages are capped at $250K. The family will get a settlement but it'll be very low seven figures at best.

Is that why they are trying to get her transferred outside of California? Pull the plug there, and file the lawsuit in a State without tort reform? I don't know the legal ramifications - just speculating.

111 posted on 01/02/2014 3:34:28 PM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: DoodleDawg

Many things are illegal, but are done anyway. For the right kind of human organ, the black market might pay between $30k and $100k. That’s more than enough to tempt the unscrupulous.

Hospitals and other authorities have also been known to destroy critical parts before autopsy, to cover their rear ends against lawsuits.


112 posted on 01/02/2014 3:37:51 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (There Is Still A Very Hot War On Terror, Just Not On The MSM. Rantburg.com)
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To: cornfedcowboy
I understand the hospital’s position but quite frankly their PR spokesperson is a disaster. The PR guy is trying to win an argument that has no winners.

Agreed. The man does not transmit compassion. At all. In a court of public opinion, he is a cold fish stinking up the tank.

113 posted on 01/02/2014 3:38:59 PM PST by NautiNurse (Obama sends U.S. Marines to pick up his dog & basketballs. Benghazi? Nope.)
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To: gas_dr

Theoretically speaking, how long can the heart continue beating while being brain dead? Does the injunction against the hospital maybe give some time for this case to resolve itself?(heart to stop beating)


114 posted on 01/02/2014 3:40:24 PM PST by cornfedcowboy
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To: BykrBayb

Is there such thing as an oral ventilator that keeps the heart pumping?

_______________

By providing circulating oxygen the heart continues to pump.


115 posted on 01/02/2014 3:43:11 PM PST by Chickensoup (we didn't love freedom enough... Solzhenitsyn.)
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To: BykrBayb

Can a heart beat on its own, unassisted, in a dead body, if other organs are mechanically maintained?

_____________

Yes. As a matter of fact I read about a crack addict whose heart was so blitzed up that that ekg kept rocking but she had been dead so long that the blood in her veins had coagulated.


116 posted on 01/02/2014 3:45:24 PM PST by Chickensoup (we didn't love freedom enough... Solzhenitsyn.)
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To: ~Pandora

Ba****ds know that no coroner will sign off.


117 posted on 01/02/2014 3:48:08 PM PST by Chickensoup (we didn't love freedom enough... Solzhenitsyn.)
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To: gas_dr
More than likely had an EEG done also.....

That's pretty standard...........

118 posted on 01/02/2014 3:48:28 PM PST by Osage Orange (I have strong feelings about gun control. If there's a gun around, I want to be controlling it.)
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To: gas_dr
Thank you for your comment. This is a tragic situation and I can understand the parents unwillingness to accept the fact that their child is dead. That is the worst thing a parent can ever hear, I know because I heard it.
119 posted on 01/02/2014 3:50:34 PM PST by Ditter
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To: Secret Agent Man
How do you know her brain isn’t receiving blood/oxygen?

Because she's brain dead. Multiple tests and doctors have confirmed there is absolutely no cerebral activity taking place. Nothing. None.

120 posted on 01/02/2014 3:52:53 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Chickensoup

I’d have to double check, but I thought I read that a coroner did pronounce her.


121 posted on 01/02/2014 4:04:20 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

bflr


122 posted on 01/02/2014 4:12:29 PM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: Anton.Rutter

Imagine the lawsuit if this child, through some miracle, recovers even to a small degree. This cannot be allowed.


123 posted on 01/02/2014 4:49:43 PM PST by Chuckster (The longer I live the less I care about what you think.)
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To: FrdmLvr

I guess more to the story than I thought. I agree losing weight would be the first thing to try before any surgery. Any surgery has risk.

“It actually wasn’t routine tonsil surgery from what I’ve read on this. She was having extensive surgery on her throat as a result of her sleep apnea from her weight problem. Why her mother didn’t help her lose the weight instead of putting her through this risky surgery is something I haven’t seen addressed yet.”


124 posted on 01/02/2014 4:53:19 PM PST by skyman
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To: El Cid
Is that why they are trying to get her transferred outside of California? Pull the plug there, and file the lawsuit in a State without tort reform? I don't know the legal ramifications - just speculating.

I'm going to give the parents the benefit of the doubt and believe they are honestly driven by what they think is the best interest of their daughter.

125 posted on 01/02/2014 5:07:26 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: ifinnegan

And your medical degree is from where? Dishonest? Not hardly. I will refrain from calling you equally offensive names. Rigor Mortis? Only lasts 8 - 24 hours. Decomposing> Her brain is starting to liquefy. She is in fact decomposing. Just not the visible way that you would like to believe. If I am deliberately lying, shall I assume that you have the medical expertise to comment? I am most interested in your educated opinion. What supports what you say? I am supported by science, professional ethics, and morality. Your ignorance on the subject is astounding. I will wait to hear your reasoned response. Short of that, I will simply say you are more destructive to the conservative cause by promulgating opinion instead of dealing with fact. Please be advised that until you provide a reasonable answer, I will no longer discuss this issue with you.


126 posted on 01/02/2014 5:34:17 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: PrairieLady2

I agree that this is their business, but also at their cost. If they want to pay privately they can, but should the insurance company be required to pay indefinitely. Should Medicare or Medicaid (you and I?) I believe that they should pay for this decision if they want this. But it is not grounded in reason or rationality


127 posted on 01/02/2014 5:39:02 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: Travis T. OJustice

Organ donation?


128 posted on 01/02/2014 5:39:48 PM PST by Wicket (1 Peter 3:15 , Romans 5:5-8)
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To: Anton.Rutter

The lawsuit over this because of the hospital’s non-cooperation and original screw-up is likely to be a dandy.


129 posted on 01/02/2014 5:44:18 PM PST by Wicket (1 Peter 3:15 , Romans 5:5-8)
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To: skyman

Off hand I’d say a physician from that hospital suggested it and is presumably the “expert” on the matter.


130 posted on 01/02/2014 5:46:32 PM PST by Wicket (1 Peter 3:15 , Romans 5:5-8)
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To: Wicket

There has yet to be an indication of a screw up. The hospital is only requiring what they must by law: Paperwork and a facility. The family has neither filled out paperwork nor found a facility. They haven’t found a facility because none will take the body. The family is refusing to waive HIPPA rights so the hospital cannot talk to us about the procedure.


131 posted on 01/02/2014 5:55:38 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Travis T. OJustice
The hospital didn’t do anything wrong. Good luck with that.

I am not sure what the 'other procedures' were, but dying of a tonsillectomy seems a tad, well, wrong.

I understand all operations have risk, but that one isn't real high on the list.

132 posted on 01/02/2014 6:27:53 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: gas_dr

Ice water is shot into the ears, looking for a
response of the eyes.

Ouch!


133 posted on 01/02/2014 6:32:28 PM PST by Excellence (All your database are belong to us.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

She had her tonsils and adenoids removed and her uvula reduced to help her sleep apnea. Basically this obese girl had a pretty involved procedure to widen her throat so she could breath better, because mommy and daddy wouldn’t cook her healthy food or exercise with her.


134 posted on 01/02/2014 6:32:59 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

I did not say the hospital was at fault.

Hospitals very often will settle even when the case is weak because of the overwhelming cost to litigate the case. Besides, the family does have a good case for pain and suffering.


135 posted on 01/02/2014 6:43:12 PM PST by Ninaq (Nina)
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To: Joan Kerrey

The girl is dead, the hospital staff goofed,...

******

You don’t know that there was a “goof” by O.R. staff. She could have had an undiagnosed genetic clotting disorder or more likely, she was extubated and because of irritation to the swollen tissues she coughed so hard a clot was dislodged. Ergo, profuse bleeding.

I spent over 30 years in the operating room and have seen many strange things happen that had nothing to do with human error by the staff.


136 posted on 01/02/2014 6:50:17 PM PST by JouleZ (You are the company you keep.)
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To: Ninaq

” Their child is in this situation due to something the personnel did or didn’t do.”

I interpreted this as you blaming the hospital.


137 posted on 01/02/2014 6:53:53 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Anton.Rutter

It sounds odd that in cases of disputed death they won’t want to give the benefit of the doubt to a family if that family can come up with a way to deal with the body.

If they are so sure she’s dead... then for heaven sakes why do they not bring in the coroner.

Due to zipped lips all around (HIPAA etc.) about much of what’s going on, even our doctors here do not have enough data to do more than speculate.


138 posted on 01/02/2014 6:54:55 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: jimsin
WOW...HOW GULlIBLE ARE YOU!

Done shouting at everyone?

139 posted on 01/02/2014 6:57:39 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: BykrBayb
Can an oral ventilator cause a heart to beat in a dead body?

Think of a transplanted heart. It is not "hooked up" to the nervous system of the host. How does it know to keep beating? Because it has its own internal "pacemaker." (Although it may ned an actual pacemeker, too. depending.) Give a heart oxigenated blood and it will beat merrily away on its own.

140 posted on 01/02/2014 6:58:49 PM PST by Excellence (All your database are belong to us.)
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To: Drew68

I’d wager that $10,000 per day doesn’t even begin to cover it. Just sayin’..


141 posted on 01/02/2014 7:02:56 PM PST by prairiebreeze (Don't be afraid to see what you see. -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: gas_dr

Please note I did not initially say you were deliberately lying.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were simply using inflammatory rhetoric to try and persuade emotionally.

When you redoubled on your mischaracterization of her condition I surmised you are overtly and deliberately lying for effect.

Your claims about her brain liquifying are empty and more colorful rhetoric, meaningless.

She became “brain dead” well before Christmas. This is not the same as dying and does not make her a corpse or a cadaver.

An almost two week old corpse would be in very different condition as she is in now.

Let me ask you. Is her blood circulating? Is her bone marrow still producing blood cells?

Is she on nutrient supplement? Is her digestive system still working?

Do her kidneys still function?

Etc...


142 posted on 01/02/2014 8:09:38 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan

Yes her blood is circulating. A machine is responsible for that. All other body functions happening are a result of the blood being circulated . . . artificially. Her brain is gone. It will not function regardless of a machine pumping her blood or not. To understand better what is happening here, I kindly suggest you research what docs are saying about this soul. I don’t think you have a grasp on the diagnosis. I’m not typing that to be mean, I really want to to gain an understanding about what is happening here. Now if she’s not brain dead, that’s a whole different story. Good night.


143 posted on 01/02/2014 8:27:33 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

Your description jibes with all I have been saying.

You did not describe a corpse.

I have not argued she is not brain dead or that there is a chance of recovery.


144 posted on 01/02/2014 9:17:42 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: goodwithagun

The hospital would not allow a willing physician to do minor surgery (food tube, trach) in order to allow the girl to go to long term care. The hospital is not “only requiring what they must by law”. One long term care facility backed out when the procedure was refused.

The girl may not recover, but she is not a dead body. The hospital staff are making this more painful and difficult than it needs to be, because they can and because it is in their long-term financial interest, and I hope the family sues the socks off of them.


145 posted on 01/02/2014 9:32:19 PM PST by Wicket (1 Peter 3:15 , Romans 5:5-8)
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To: gas_dr
No doubt the parents are seeking retribution and milking this for all they are worth.

This young girl should never have ended up in this position after undergoing a relatively routine surgery. Of course her mother is going to fight hard to give her child every chance possible, no matter what the doctors or the "ethics committee" says.

There are too many mistakes happening in hospitals today. Many of us have had experience with hospital staff that does not care, does not pay close attention, brushes off concerns too easily, etc., and then a loved one ends up in this position because a family's concerns were not heeded. It's a parent's instinct to protect a child, and this mother does not trust the hospital now, as she has every reason not to.

146 posted on 01/02/2014 9:59:21 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Mount Athos
the doctor called a bunch of other credentialed people in coats to press me into signing a paper .... (room full of docs nod their head). A long with exhasperated signs and shaking of head like you’re an unreasonable idiot for asking questions.

We had the same experiences when my father was in the hospital. Good for you for standing strong! It is a fight at hospitals. Doctors do tend to "gang up" on people to push them into making decisions. And the doctors who are willing to try to help a patient often face challenges from other doctors.

147 posted on 01/02/2014 10:07:19 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: El Cid

He is a real doc. And absolutely correct.


148 posted on 01/02/2014 10:16:35 PM PST by Mom MD
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To: blueyon

Jesus can raise her from the dead. The docs and hospital cannot. And Jesus can do it without their help if He chooses. Its time to let go.....


149 posted on 01/02/2014 10:18:07 PM PST by Mom MD
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To: ifinnegan

Copious and repetitive 3-7 syllable words in your aggressive and vacuous personal attacks is injudicious. That is all.


150 posted on 01/03/2014 3:19:37 AM PST by NautiNurse (Obama sends U.S. Marines to pick up his dog & basketballs. Benghazi? Nope.)
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