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Hospital won't aid transfer of girl on ventilator
Yahoo News ^ | Dec. 31, 2013 | Lisa Leff & Terry Collins (AP)

Posted on 01/02/2014 1:08:18 PM PST by Anton.Rutter

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To: gas_dr
The fact is that arrogance is often presumed by the ignorant in the light of the truth.

And then there is true, unadulterated arrogance.

201 posted on 01/03/2014 6:55:45 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: Tired of Taxes

I have taken on entire staffs and systems in the defense of my patients. Please understand that many of us sharing an objective and scientific perspective have been needlessly attacked. Finnegan called me a liar and dishonest, and another arrogant. I am sorry that I choose not to refute these attacks. It is utterly impossible for you to know my practice patterns or the lengths that I have gone to for my patients. I have found, however, that most people want to know the truth especially when dealing with sick family members. I deliver that compassionately to those who I care for professionally. I have a wall of awards testifying to this, and more importantly my most cherished professional accolades — the letters from countless patients and families. But you would not know about that. I am sneering at the willful misrepresentation of some others on this thread.


202 posted on 01/03/2014 8:32:35 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: gas_dr

I read every single one of your posts and wanted to thank you for the sane, rational, well-written information you provided in this heartbreaking case. I learned more from you, despite the detractors on this thread, than from the media or any other source.

You shed incredible light on this situation and I feel I understand it much more clearly now after reading your comments.

Kudos and thanks.


203 posted on 01/03/2014 8:53:06 PM PST by Bon of Babble (Don't want to brag...but I can still fit into the earrings I wore in high school!!)
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To: goodwithagun

Wow... just as my cousin was after cracking his skull in an accident 32 years ago. Doctors at Scripps were not as quick to “pull the plug” back then... he came through it. He had health problems as a result, but lived a pretty good life. He passed away on Labor Day last year... too young at 52. Glad we did not have the death mongers back then that we have now... another positive is that organ donation was not such a lucrative business then as now.


204 posted on 01/03/2014 9:47:59 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: BykrBayb

So you trust a make believe doctor on the internet in helping you to understand? Amazing!


205 posted on 01/03/2014 9:50:03 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: gas_dr
The "tragic" thing here is your rabid interest in this case and involvement to the point of personal attack of those who are critical of you mister internet GAS doctor. Why are you so interested? Are you a part of this case? Are you sowing seeds of doubt among those who believe in the family regarding life decisions? Why?

Those here who are concerned about hospital admin and govt deciding these issues instead of family do have a personal interest.... it CAN and WILL affect them someday. Those with the interest in siding with other than the family making decisions... I have to wonder why. Even in the mid 1990's the immediate family made these decisions. Tell me what is the legal authority of the hospital to make this decision? We have gone from Doctors who use to "do no harm" to doctors who look the other way and do nothing.

206 posted on 01/03/2014 9:57:03 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights

So glad you could come to the conclusion that the parents should pull the plug on their child How kind of you. How about letting them make that decision with consultation from those they trust?


207 posted on 01/03/2014 9:58:37 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: ladyjane

It is all about organ transplants. Personal experience.... sorry.. pisses me off. I am not a donor and my daughter is not as well.


208 posted on 01/03/2014 10:03:48 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: ladyjane

Yes... agree.


209 posted on 01/03/2014 10:05:13 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: MHGinTN

Not sure this is a doctor... just a prevaricator.


210 posted on 01/03/2014 10:06:12 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: Tired of Taxes

You pretty much nailed it....


211 posted on 01/03/2014 10:06:56 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: ifinnegan

His use of “corpse” is the new terminology in ObieCare.


212 posted on 01/03/2014 10:08:21 PM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: goodwithagun

What I find deeply disturbing is the phrase, “This family wanted a quick fix.” The family made their decision on the advice of two doctors. Many people have carpal tunnel surgery on the basis of what a doctor says, when all it takes to fix it is two chiropractic adjustments - one in the wrist, and another in vertebra #2. Taking a doctor’s advice is not always the best course of action, but how many laymen are aware of that fact?


213 posted on 01/04/2014 1:55:00 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall
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To: gas_dr; pepsi_junkie

Don’t be ridiculous. You are ascribing motivations to the family that you have no way of knowing.


214 posted on 01/04/2014 2:18:43 AM PST by Lauren BaRecall
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To: Lauren BaRecall

Because it was a quick fix. Thanks to the Internet we are capable of knowledge experiences never before possible. I thought my son (who is actually quite skinny) might have had sleep apnea. He snores so badly at night. What did I do? Internet research. As it turns out this surgery is the first protocol, and if the surgery doesn’t work then a CPAP mask is introduced. That appalls me. Anesthitizing a small body and then carving out body parts is the first protocol? Unlike this poor child’s parents I did my research. It is unfortunate that they did not. They could have pressed her docs for the CPAP mask, or they could have attempted alternative therapies (of which I’m a big fan). However, in this case it was simply that the poor child was obese. God forbid the adults that made her that way alter their lifestyles to help this girl.


215 posted on 01/04/2014 3:44:49 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: antceecee; gas_dr

I don’t know that gas_dr is a fraud. He was able (and willing) to answer my question about heart function in a way that makes sense sense to me. If you have information that contradicts his answer, please share it. I’m not here to push an agenda. I’m here to get answers.

As I see it, the issue is whether Jahi is dead or alive. If she is alive, she should receive the care she needs. If she is dead, her corpse should be respectfully laid to rest.

All the arguments over who has the right to pull the plug and cause her death, or keep her corpse hooked up to life support are beside the point, not to mention ridiculous.


216 posted on 01/04/2014 4:16:05 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Lauren BaRecall; goodwithagun
As it turns out this surgery is the first protocol, and if the surgery doesn’t work then a CPAP mask is introduced. That appalls me. Anesthitizing a small body and then carving out body parts is the first protocol?

I agree that surgery should not always be the first line of treatment if there are other viable treatment options that can be used first. But in pediatric obstructive sleep apnea, enlarged tonsils and adenoids, an enlarged uvula rather than obesity or obesity alone, are often the cause.

While Jahi was obese and obesity certainly causes and contributes to sleep apnea in many but not all cases, sleep apnea can also cause weight gain and make it more difficult to lose weight. We don’t know if or what efforts had been undertaken by her mother and her doctor to change her diet, put her on some sort of exercise plan and help her lose weight prior to going with the surgical option.

Sleep apnea can also cause other issues such as nighttime bedwetting, loss of concentration and increased irritability – all of which I read Jahi had. Sleep apnea can also cause high blood pressure and heart and lung problems and contribute to the development of diabetes if left untreated. We do not know if she had HBP or diabetes other health issues other than just the sleep apnea.

http://www.entnet.org/HealthInformation/Could-Child-Have-Sleep-Apnea.cfm

I understand that Jahi also had sinus issues, a deviated septum, enlarged tubinates (excess sinus tissues), a deviated septum is something I also have but haven’t had surgery for yet, but probably should as I also have symptoms of sleep apnea – and yes I’m a “mouth breather” which has also caused gum problems. I also understand that having deviated septum can make it more difficult to use a CPAP and that children and adolescents often have trouble adjusting to the machine as do a good number of adults (I know of at least two people, adults who despite trying for many months and following all instructions, just couldn’t adapt to wearing them). That and as children and adolescents are still growing, they would require frequent refitting of and replacement of CPAP masks. A CPAP is not a cure for the problem, it only ameliorates the symptoms.

217 posted on 01/04/2014 4:48:52 AM PST by MD Expat in PA
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To: antceecee
The personal attacks you state are neither attacks not personal. They are responsible to vicious statements that were made to me. Please understand that a response to an attack that is stern is not an attack. The brutal truth is that many raise their rhetoric when they should reinforce their argument.

This is not a decision point, the fact is that this child is medically and clinically dead. That is the beginning and end of the conversation. This is not a hospital administrator decision this is not a government decision. This is a clinical observation. The hospital is not making this decision. The hospital is operating within the law based on the independent judgment of physicians.

If you wish to quote the hippocratic oath, at least read it and get it all correct and do not generalize. I have not even ever commented on the effect these cases have on the physician staff, however, you likely do not even understand the depth of that conversation.

218 posted on 01/04/2014 5:21:18 AM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: gas_dr

Thank you for all of your posts, I have read them all and learned a lot about
this case. It is so tragic. We cannot judge either the hospital or the parents. Who can fault them if they are hanging onto hope and no longer trust the hospital she is at? Maybe if the transfer occurs and they receive the same evaluation at another hospital then they will accept it. We should not jump to so many conclusions without enough information.


219 posted on 01/04/2014 6:13:48 AM PST by MomwithHope (Let's make Mark Levin's The Liberty Amendments a reality!)
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To: antceecee

Would you feel better if I had said “My opinion is.... Jahi’s soul has passed. It will never return. She is in God’s care now. It’s time to let her body pass as well..”

It is an opinion not an edict.


220 posted on 01/04/2014 12:06:54 PM PST by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: Lauren BaRecall
Don’t be ridiculous. You are ascribing motivations to the family that you have no way of knowing.

You are right, nobody knows what motivates anyone else in their hearts, really. And so I was indeed ascribing motivations to the family but I did so as an alternative to another more cynical set of motivations originally ascribed by another. Let me remind you of the statement made that I was responding to (quoted in my first post): No doubt the parents are seeking retribution and milking this for all they are worth.

As a father, if I lost my child in such a shocking and unexpected way, I don't imagine my first thought would be to "milk this for they are worth". Maybe that is indeed what this is about, and they are planning to move their child to a private clinic so they can keep her "alive" on a ventilator so they can gain sympathy from a jury, and once they get a big payout and they don't need her anymore they will consent to let her go. That seems awfully mercenary to me and if it's the truth, frankly, I prefer to see it with rose colored glasses and assume they love their child and are desperate to believe she can be saved.

221 posted on 01/04/2014 10:15:33 PM PST by pepsi_junkie (Who is John Galt?)
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights

Yes.. it is an opinion. You nor I know the intimate details in this... sorry I trust the parents.


222 posted on 01/07/2014 2:02:21 AM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: BykrBayb
"All the arguments over who has the right to pull the plug and cause her death, or keep her corpse hooked up to life support are beside the point, not to mention ridiculous"

Unless you are the parents of this girl, then it is not ridiculous...

223 posted on 01/07/2014 2:04:44 AM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: gas_dr

If you truly are a medical professional of any sort, I pray you never oversee treatment regarding any of my family or friends. Your comments on the forums regarding this child have been appalling.


224 posted on 01/07/2014 2:08:48 AM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: MomwithHope

How do you “learn a lot about this case” from someone who is not privy to the intimate details of “this case”???? Amazing how so many will trust postings from someone on an internet site.


225 posted on 01/07/2014 2:10:35 AM PST by antceecee (Bless us Lord, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.)
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To: antceecee

If she is alive, it’s wrong to kill her. If she’s dead, it’s wrong to keep her rotting corpse partially functioning on machines. This is true, no matter who her parents are. The issue is whether she’s alive or dead.

It is beside the point, and ridiculous, to argue over who has the right to kill a living patient. Nobody does.

It is beside the point, and ridiculous, to argue over who has the right to abuse a corpse by keeping it hooked up to machines in an attempt to make it appear alive. Nobody does.


226 posted on 01/07/2014 7:24:33 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: antceecee
What has been appalling? I have said nothing more the. Medical fact. If it is the truth that your are appalled by so be it. I cannot help not control that. If you are upset by my response to personal attack I am sorry that you cannot bear someone defending themselves. The problem is this, often people with your perspective attack with emotion to obliterate the truth. I choose not to live in that world. The Socratic conditions of debate are honesty, candor, and good will. You are showing none of those. I probably would not enjoy taking care of you or your loved ones as a result of your lack of unrealistic attitude. Just because you can make a personal attack does not mean this is a one way street. You impugned my integrity without any provocation. I am in fact a physician with four board certifications including critical care and Neuro critical care. You have not the first idea of how I practice medicine. Would you like to see the hundreds of letters and several awards I have received around the compassionate delivery of healthcare? Of course not, you are far too narrow minded.

What have I said that it materially incorrect? I have not problem with the family arranging different plans for the body. If they want to ventilate the dead body, fine. But to demand people to pay for it and arrange it? Sorry. I can't support that! You think the hospital is doing this ?? Try dealing with the fact that this is a physician issue. Have you ever cared for the dying? Stood at bedside for hours doing your best to help? Can you forecast the consequence of this insanity? I can. By allowing the courts into a scientific and medical decision by a judge not trained it only opens the door to government abuse. Your advocacy has only accelerated that which you are afraid. Again you probably don't think along those lines. If you want to make an argument at least educate yourself on how to make an intelligent fact based argument not an emotional one. I cannot wait to hear what has been so appalling.

227 posted on 01/07/2014 8:56:22 AM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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