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Hospital won't aid transfer of girl on ventilator
Yahoo News ^ | Dec. 31, 2013 | Lisa Leff & Terry Collins (AP)

Posted on 01/02/2014 1:08:18 PM PST by Anton.Rutter

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To: ifinnegan

Disagree. AFAIK, in every state the legal definition of dead is brain death.

She has been pronounced brain dead by 3 separate and (hopefully) competent physicians.

Brain death was originally put in place for the very reason that it is possible, in many cases, to keep a heart beating long after the brain has died. To which most people agree there is no point.


51 posted on 01/02/2014 1:55:09 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Anton.Rutter; All
Jahi didn't have a 'simple tonsillectomy,' as the family says and as the papers keep reporting. She was a morbidly obese young girl with sleep apnea.

She underwent uvulopalatopharyngoplasty, which is far more extensive and risky than a tonsillectomy.

For those who don't know what this surgery is, excess tissue is removed to help wide the airway. Included in this tissue is the uvula (thing that hangs down in the back of your throat), a large part of the soft palate, tonsils, adenoids & pharynx.

This wasn't a simple tonsillectomy; it was a much more complicated and risky surgery.

52 posted on 01/02/2014 1:55:32 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Scoutmaster

. . . that could have been avoided if her mother cooked her healthy food and exercised with her.


53 posted on 01/02/2014 1:59:16 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Scoutmaster
Oh - and the family won't waive HIPAA confidentiality laws and allow the hospital to comment specifically on the procedure and the outcome.

The longer Jahi stays on a ventilator, the more difficult it becomes to establish a cause of death, which is convenient for the family in any wrongful death lawsuit.

54 posted on 01/02/2014 2:00:42 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: goodwithagun

Yes.


55 posted on 01/02/2014 2:01:45 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Sherman Logan

“Brain death was originally put in place for the very reason that it is possible, in many cases, to keep a heart beating long after the brain has died. To which most people agree there is no point.”

Yes. Note how you left out the last part of your thought as a given: most people agree their is no point in keeping the patient alive via artificial means - ie means normally con tolled by the nervous system.

Brain dead is not dead. There is no rigor mortis or other post-death events.

I am not arguing at all that she is not brain dead, or she could later survive without artificial support (nor the converse either).


56 posted on 01/02/2014 2:02:59 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan
Another medical institution has offered to continue care, thus allowing Children’s to cease their care.

Yet Children’s is actively, purposely obstructing this transfer of care to take place.

From the article

Straus, the hospital's lawyer, reiterated in his letter that the hospital would release the girl's body as soon as her family provided a detailed plan outlining how the move would be accomplished and written permission from the coroner. But he said neither has been submitted.

"No facility has stated, unconditionally or otherwise, that it is prepared to immediately accept Jahi's body," he wrote.

57 posted on 01/02/2014 2:05:27 PM PST by ~Pandora
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To: ifinnegan

The whole situation hinges on whether she’s dead or alive, but nobody will give an answer to that question, or any of the surrounding questions which would make it possible to deduce whether she’s dead or alive. The condescending explanations of what brain death means are no help at all.


58 posted on 01/02/2014 2:07:36 PM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: TexasGator
Hospital says they will cooperate when a plan is made and a destination willing to accept. So far there is no plan and no facility named to send the girl to.

This.

Additionally, they have not retained a surgeon willing to perform a tracheotomy.

59 posted on 01/02/2014 2:12:50 PM PST by Drew68
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To: ~Pandora

Yet the first paragraph states:

“OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) — A California hospital is unwilling to allow an outside doctor to fit a 13-year-old declared brain dead after tonsil surgery with the breathing and feeding tubes that would allow her to be safely transferred to another facility, its lawyer said Tuesday.”

So, which is it?


60 posted on 01/02/2014 2:16:10 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: BykrBayb

Yes.

The thing is, no one can give that answer, only their opinion.

The only way to know is to “pull the plug” and see.

This is an example of a death panel in a way.


61 posted on 01/02/2014 2:18:14 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: gas_dr

Thanks for your posts/point of view/insight on this sensitive subject.


62 posted on 01/02/2014 2:19:59 PM PST by LowOiL ("Abomination" sure sounds like "ObamaNation" to me.)
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To: Anton.Rutter

Just keep adding those 0’s to the settlement that’s coming, stupid hospital administrators.


63 posted on 01/02/2014 2:22:24 PM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: faithhopecharity

a very unexpected outcome from a tonsillectomy ... one that definitely bears investigation (especially in view of the hospital’s really rather odd behavior since....)

I have wondered that too, a dead body tells fewer tales than a living one...


64 posted on 01/02/2014 2:22:44 PM PST by GraceG
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To: Oliviaforever
The family’s First Amendment Rights of Freedom of Religion are being denied and the girl has fallen victim to an ObamaCare Death Panel.

So the hospital should continue providing $10,000/day care for as long as it takes until God Himself miracles her back to life?

65 posted on 01/02/2014 2:35:17 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Travis T. OJustice
She’s dead. what do you want them to do?

It is a tragedy for sure. I have been to Children's Hospital in Oakland many times. Every staff member I ever dealt with, was kind, caring and professional. It is sad.

66 posted on 01/02/2014 2:38:36 PM PST by Mark17 (Chicago Blackhawks: Stanley Cup champions 2010, 2013. Vietnam Veteran, 70-71)
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To: Travis T. OJustice

You know this how? Are you God?


67 posted on 01/02/2014 2:39:24 PM PST by Bulwyf
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To: GraceG

Even a tonsillectomy holds risks, especially for a young, obese body. However, this poor child did not just have a tonsillectomy. She had her tonsils and adenoids removed, and her uvula altered/reduced. Why? Because she had sleep apnea, something that probably could have been prevented if her parents loved her enough to feed her well and exercise with her.


68 posted on 01/02/2014 2:40:37 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Lx

It is standard procedure and the requirements for declaring someone brain dead


69 posted on 01/02/2014 2:43:27 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: gas_dr

JEES GDR
IT’S GREAT TO GET A PROFESSIONAL TAKE ON THIS ‘OUT OF CONTROL’ SITUATION .....SCIENCE TRIUMPHS OVER EMOTION ..JUST AS IT OUGHT TO.....I SALUTE YOU DR. PROFESSIONAL... CLARITY COMES TO THE FREEREPUBLIC AS IT MOST TIMES DOES COMPLIMENTS OF THE PROS...! IT’S WHAT MAKES THIS PLACE SO VALUABLE..!


70 posted on 01/02/2014 2:45:04 PM PST by jimsin
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To: mabarker1

THe hospital is not hiding anything. The negligence on the hospital side is likely vicarious. Bleeding tonsils are a known complication of the procedure. Additionally the child probably had a UPPP (reduction of obstructive tissues) as a function of her morbid obesity. By definition she likely has a difficult airway. When she started bleeding, it was probably the red sea in there. This is one of the most fearful complications. I have handled a couple of the cases and believe me I needed to throw away my underwear after all was said and done.


71 posted on 01/02/2014 2:45:41 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: pepsi_junkie

I have indeed one many awards for my compassion including promotion to the highest office in my hospital. Your point? Oh wait, when logic fails, personal attacks with emotion mitigate a response to the actual issue. Silly me, I forgot that compassion is more in telling people what they want to hear instead of the truth.


72 posted on 01/02/2014 2:47:15 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: El Cid

I am indeed a real doctor, triple board certified and one of my boards happens to be neurocritical care. This is a very sad and awful case. I am certain all involved are haunted by it. But yes, the heart can be kept alive indefinitely my ventilating the lungs. The lack of brain function confirm the death.


73 posted on 01/02/2014 2:48:57 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: Anton.Rutter

“The girl is dead and we want her organs while they are still fresh. There are rich people who will pay us top dollar for those parts, and they are ours, I tell you. Ours!”


74 posted on 01/02/2014 2:49:37 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (There Is Still A Very Hot War On Terror, Just Not On The MSM. Rantburg.com)
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To: ifinnegan

I am completely correct on point...look at the law and understand the medicine behind it. How is what I wrote beside the point? The child is dead. That is exactly the point. Nothing is being done beside assaulting a corpse. This is not an emotional issue like Shivo who was breathing on her own and living. This is a ventilator allowing a heart to beat, nothing more. The person, the being, and the body is in fact dead


75 posted on 01/02/2014 2:50:55 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: gas_dr

Thank you for a very reasoned and educated response.


76 posted on 01/02/2014 2:53:33 PM PST by sheana
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To: gas_dr

I want to hear the truth. That’s why I keep asking. So once again, can a dead body be maintained with just an oral ventilator and a feeding tube? Can an oral ventilator cause a heart to beat in a dead body?


77 posted on 01/02/2014 2:53:45 PM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Travis T. OJustice
She's dead. What do you want them to do?

I'm not assuming she's dead. Even if that's the case, I'd expect them to turn the girl over to the parents, and be helpful in that process.

This is a death panel situation. It's about parental rights. And it's the future we all face if those parents can't have custody of their child.

78 posted on 01/02/2014 2:54:02 PM PST by grania
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To: Anton.Rutter

You’d think the hospital would be falling over themselves to get her and the lawyers out their doors asap.


79 posted on 01/02/2014 2:55:04 PM PST by bgill
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To: BykrBayb

I would be happy to. Yes the heart is beating precisely because of the oxygenation artificially applied with a mechanical ventilator. The brain (remember apnea test) is not stimulating the body to breath. Separated from the artificial machine pumping the lungs, there will not be another breath. There is no blood flow to the brain (google 4 vessel angiography or ultrasonography) . Because it has been proven there is no “breath of life” all that is being accomplished is keeping a heart beating apart from the brain. The legal, and medical definition of death. This heart could be kept a live in a petrie dish with a bypass machine outside the body. The child is therefore dead as the brain is irreversibly destroyed and no life function exists. It is the catch 22 of being able to apply a ventilator quickly, but it does not mean the child is alive. I grieve for her, her parents, and every worker who tried to save her.


80 posted on 01/02/2014 2:55:36 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: Da Coyote
They are already in deep Obamastuff, and one would think they’d cooperate so as to reduce their upcoming settlement from $1 billion to half that.

California has tort reform. Non-economic damages are capped at $250K. The family will get a settlement but it'll be very low seven figures at best.

81 posted on 01/02/2014 2:56:22 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: BykrBayb
In irreversible brain death, the most basic brain functions cease to exist. This includes spontaneous respiration. The mechanical ventilator forces the lungs to expand and contract, allowing oxygen exchange in the lungs. This mechanical function indefinitely delays the heart muscle tissue from completing the death process.

There are laws preventing health care providers from performing procedures on persons who have been pronounced dead. One unrelated example: Ambulance paramedics may not transport a mortally wounded motorcycle accident victim who was pronounced dead at the scene by a passerby physician. The medical examiner's office must be notified.

In the case of Jahi McMath, she has been pronounced dead by three physicians. The hospital and health care providers would need a court order or written order from the medical examiner/coroner to perform the surgical procedure needed to replace the oral endotracheal tube for extended duration of mechanical ventilation.

This is a heartbreaking case, particularly when Jahi reportedly didn't want to undergo the surgery in the first place.

82 posted on 01/02/2014 2:56:38 PM PST by NautiNurse (Obama sends U.S. Marines to pick up his dog & basketballs. Benghazi? Nope.)
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To: gas_dr
But yes, the heart can be kept alive indefinitely my ventilating the lungs.

Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.

83 posted on 01/02/2014 2:57:48 PM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: gas_dr

If you see grieving parents who are trying everything they can think of to save their child (even if you think they are wasting their time) and assume that “no doubt” they are milking the system for a payout, well, I’ll just say that doesn’t seem to me the most charitable interpretation of events.


84 posted on 01/02/2014 2:58:38 PM PST by pepsi_junkie (Who is John Galt?)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
“The girl is dead and we want her organs while they are still fresh. There are rich people who will pay us top dollar for those parts, and they are ours, I tell you. Ours!”

It's illegal to sell organs that have been donated, and all the girl's family have to do is say they do not choose to donate.

85 posted on 01/02/2014 2:58:44 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: BykrBayb

Yes, a dead body can be maintained with an oral ventilator and a feeding tube. The oral ventilator provides oxygen which can cause the heart to beat in a dead body.


86 posted on 01/02/2014 3:01:10 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: All

http://neurology.about.com/od/Symptoms/a/Understanding-Brain-Death.htm


87 posted on 01/02/2014 3:01:26 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Drew68

“So the hospital should continue providing $10,000/day care for as long as it takes until God Himself miracles her back to life?”

We do not know anything about the financial state of the family and can only assume that they are paying for the current treatment plan. But, we do know that the ObamaCare Death Panels want to turn off the machines in order to save a few dollars.

Even with the dictates of the ObamaCare Death Panel and the possibility that the family might have difficulty coming up with the $10,0000.00 per day, we can hope that good people that are Pro Life and against ObamaCare will contribute to help the family through this difficult time.


88 posted on 01/02/2014 3:02:14 PM PST by Oliviaforever
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To: blueyon
Jesus Raised Lazarus from the Dead. Nothing is impossible for him, I pray/ask that he heals this little girl, heals her from the top of her head to the tips of her toes, that she gets up and walks! In the name of Jesus Amen

Jesus raised Lazarus four days after he died. This girl has been medically dead for longer than that. How much time do you think they should give Him to act in this poor girls case?

89 posted on 01/02/2014 3:04:24 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: Oliviaforever

God himself can preform the miracle with or without the ventilator. It is a specious argument to say that God will preform the miracle only with the aid of the vent. My God is omnipotent and can raise her should he so choose without artificial respiration


90 posted on 01/02/2014 3:04:59 PM PST by gas_dr (Trial lawyers AND POLITICIANS are Endangering Every Patient in America)
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To: FredZarguna

The family should have a pretty strong case against the hospital and/or hospital staff. Obviously something went very wrong. The hospital will settle, because this case would be very ugly.

The other situation is how the hospital has handled this problem. I have listened to their spokesman on TV. If he is an example of how the family has been handled, it is no wonder there has been this disaster. Some of the comments coming from the hospital have been cold and rude. Some families cannot cope with this kind of tragedy, or have never developed the skills to address a crisis. Therefore it takes compassionate handling at the outset to help them. The hospital should have tried to gain at least one person within the family to understand the situation and to be the person to work with.

Unfortunately, the hospital expected them to listen to what they were told and to comply. But, why should they? Their child is in this situation due to something the personnel did or didn’t do. Should they trust the hospital?
The hospital comes across as having only one interest, the money this is costing them.


91 posted on 01/02/2014 3:06:09 PM PST by Ninaq (Nina)
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To: Oliviaforever
We do not know anything about the financial state of the family and can only assume that they are paying for the current treatment plan.

I think it is safer to assume that they are not.

92 posted on 01/02/2014 3:06:19 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: Ninaq

When was it reported that the hospital is at fault? I missed that one.


93 posted on 01/02/2014 3:09:20 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: skyman

It actually wasn’t routine tonsil surgery from what I’ve read on this. She was having extensive surgery on her throat as a result of her sleep apnea from her weight problem. Why her mother didn’t help her lose the weight instead of putting her through this risky surgery is something I haven’t seen addressed yet.


94 posted on 01/02/2014 3:12:52 PM PST by FrdmLvr ("WE ARE ALL OSAMA, 0BAMA!" al-Qaeda terrorists who breached the American compound in Benghazi)
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To: Ninaq
I agree with you about all that. But this is not a pro-life issue. This poor little girl is dead. It's not a question of a hospital attempting to euthanize a live person they consider unsalvageable.

Many doctors come across as arrogant jerks, and a lot of hospitals need serious work with their treatment of patients. But some FReepers clearly don't know any doctors personally. Except for extremely sick, evil, people like Kermit Gosnell, the last thing a real doctor wants to do is accept the death of a patient -- even in cases where it's inevitable.

Every drug has side effects, every surgery has serious risks, and there's a lot about medicine we don't know. People have come to believe that nothing can go wrong with "routine" "trivial" medical procedures. They're wrong. The family's lawyer isn't helping this, and neither is the hospital.

95 posted on 01/02/2014 3:14:43 PM PST by FredZarguna (Das is nicht richtig nur falsch. Das ist nicht einmal falsch.)
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To: Oliviaforever
we can hope that good people that are Pro Life and against ObamaCare will contribute to help the family through this difficult time.

Here you go:

http://www.gofundme.com/jahi-mcmath

They've raised $43k and counting.

96 posted on 01/02/2014 3:16:18 PM PST by Drew68
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To: gas_dr

No. You are being dishonest.

Cadavers do not breathe nor do corpses have heart beats, even artificially generated.

She does not have rigor mortis, nor is she decomposing.

You are deliberately lying by saying she is a corpse and that is wrong to do.


97 posted on 01/02/2014 3:16:27 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: a fool in paradise

I am going to side with a generous punitive settlement when the wrongful death case comes to court.

It could be said that that is exactly her attorney’s strategy.
The girl is dead, the hospital staff goofed, and by all means there should be legal action taken. But much of their pain and suffering is of their own making as they prolong the agony of waiting for someone to bring their brain dead girl back to life.

I agree with the hospital that they should not operate on a dead body.


98 posted on 01/02/2014 3:17:02 PM PST by Joan Kerrey (The larger the government, the smaller the people)
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To: gas_dr

beyond the brain dead issue, this hospital wanted to get this over with asap because they wanted to do their best to cover up their own potential negligence in this case.

they are also very anxious to get donor organs.

I have family in NICUs and have worked in hospitals. Some are hell bent at declaring people legally deadand then going after family to aloow them to harvest organs.

They would have destroyed any evidence of negligence on their part during organ removal and just said it occurred taking out organs.

I do not doubt it for one second.


99 posted on 01/02/2014 3:17:14 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: gas_dr

One of the articles said that the child moves around on the bed at the mother’s presence.

It seems to me that if this child is truly dead, then why should the hospital hang on to her? Why not let her go with her parents and let them do what they feel is right? It’s certainly not going to harm the child any further since she’s dead already.

As afar as I am personally concerned, if the hospital insists on keeping her as though she were their own property, then yes, they should continue treatments no matter the cost.

And if the family thinks she’s alive and is willing to find long term care for their child, what the hell business is it of anyone’s? I mean...really. This is nothing but a disgusting power play by those on the public dole (as long as physicians play with bureaucrats, then they are owned by bureaucrats) in addition to the government.

This whole thing is sick and gross...meaning the topic of hospitals and doctors, and governments taking control of people, live or dead like they were property.

And then to say that people get riled up emotionally???? People SHOULD get riled up at government over power!

I don’t give a flip whether or not this child is dead or alive but I DO give a flip that none of us can make decisions for our children or for ourselves without those egotistical authoritarians sticking their noses where it doesn’t belong.

If those parents want their baby to continue to receive care, then that’s THEIR business!


100 posted on 01/02/2014 3:20:06 PM PST by PrairieLady2
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