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90% of shooting rampages could be stopped by quick-thinking civilians: expert
Washington Times ^ | January 3, 2014 | David Sherfinski

Posted on 01/03/2014 9:54:48 PM PST by neverdem

Mass shootings like the ones that have occurred in recent years in Newtown, Conn., and Aurora, Colo., have tripled in recent years, according to a study set to be published next week for the FBI.

Researchers looked at active shootings in public settings where the primary motive appeared to be mass murder and at least one victim was unrelated to the shooter, according to Yahoo News, which obtained the report.

The study, to be published next week in the “FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin,” a training publication for those in the criminal justice profession, was written by the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT) Center at Texas State University...

--snip--

Researchers looked at 110 active shooter attacks, and found that they occur most often at businesses (40 percent) and schools (29 percent)...

--snip--

Almost half of the active shootings are over before additional help can arrive, the study said, and potential victims actually stopped the attacker in 17 such cases...

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist
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1 posted on 01/03/2014 9:54:49 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

2 posted on 01/03/2014 10:02:13 PM PST by PROCON (Those who are capable of Tyranny are capable of Deceit to sustain it.)
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To: neverdem
“If we can properly prepare and educate civilians, maybe we can get to where 90 percent are stopped by civilians long before the police arrive.”

You can bet that the NY Slimes will not be reporting on this.

G*D forbid that anyone suggest that civilians be armed let alone be armed in public!

3 posted on 01/03/2014 10:02:33 PM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: neverdem
The study, to be published next week in the “FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin,” a training publication for those in the criminal justice profession, was written by the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT) Center at Texas State University...

What the heck do those people know about it? What does the NYTs think? /s

4 posted on 01/03/2014 10:16:08 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: neverdem

Bump


5 posted on 01/03/2014 10:17:58 PM PST by Jet Jaguar
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To: neverdem
Almost half of the active shootings are over before additional help can arrive, the study said, and potential victims actually stopped the attacker in 17 such cases...

The definition of terms that define these statistics will be interesting to read.

After all when the study says that the shooting is over before additional help can arrive; does that mean that in shootings that are stopped when additional help arrives does it mean that LOE has arrived on the scene or does it mean that the LOE intervened?

From what I have read of the active shooter incidents in the press frequently the shooter kills himself when he hears LEO on the scene ending the incident and the LEO never engages the killer.

So to my mind incidents where the shooter kills himself when the LEO arrives would tend to support arming civilians because the mere arrival of firearms on the scene caused the shooter to end the shooting.

6 posted on 01/03/2014 10:23:49 PM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: neverdem

It’s time to start looking at the effect of “gun-free zones” on mass shootings. Businesses and schools are target-rich environments, so it’s not surprising that they lead the stats on the number of shootings, but the potential for presence or explicit absence of firearms in the hands of “victims” should be controlled for.


7 posted on 01/03/2014 10:25:24 PM PST by Little Pig (Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.)
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To: neverdem

Leh mey see....

My 900 lumen flashlight

Kimber Tac II loaded with Hornady .45 JHP 230 grn

And my knife as a backup???

“He’s dead Jim”


8 posted on 01/03/2014 10:41:51 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: Little Pig

The marijuana stores, growing sites and distribution centers must be gun free zones in WA state by order of the Justice Department. Security guards cannot be armed.

Crank-up the Lazy-Boy and get the popcorn, we are in for some real entertainment.


9 posted on 01/03/2014 10:46:00 PM PST by alpo (What would Selco do?)
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To: neverdem
RUN HIDE FIGHT Surviving an Active Shooter

Your DHS at work.

10 posted on 01/03/2014 10:52:03 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: Vendome

.45 JHP 230 grn

Too bad you couldn’t get Black Talons - adds just a bit of extra trauma to the wound. Sorry, can’t help my supply is very limited. Other than that I like your choice.

“Gun free zones” are 1/2 of the problem. The other half is that it is, since the Carter years, nearly impossible to commit a crazy kid w/o his/her consent. Crazy people tend to not know they are crazy; they think everyone else is.

If you look at a graph of when we let the crazies go and when mass shootings took off there is a direct link. Then if you look at the recent popularity of “gun free zones” I am sure there will be a spike.


11 posted on 01/03/2014 11:10:28 PM PST by logic101.net (How many more children must die on the altar of "gun free zones"?)
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To: neverdem

12 posted on 01/03/2014 11:14:15 PM PST by JoeProBono (SOME IMAGES MAY BE DISTURBING VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED;-{)
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To: logic101.net

Black Talons were simply renamed and went back on the market with a slightly different jacket (doesn’t have the black Lubalox coating), renamed the Ranger SXT Ranger-T. With better powder behind it.

There is also a successor variant called the PDX-1 which differs in that it is a bonded hollowpoint version. They sell them at the usual sources, including Walmart.


13 posted on 01/03/2014 11:18:41 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Vince Ferrer

That’s an incredible video.
What a bunch of sitting duck situations.


14 posted on 01/03/2014 11:29:40 PM PST by right way right (What's it gonna take? (guillotines?))
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To: JoeProBono

Hey at least there is some racial diversity.


15 posted on 01/03/2014 11:33:14 PM PST by right way right (What's it gonna take? (guillotines?))
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To: neverdem

Ah, common sense but never to be discussed in the media!


16 posted on 01/04/2014 12:01:26 AM PST by Deagle (ues)
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To: neverdem

If most people went armed, there would be few if any mass shootings.

That would come at the cost of more accidental shootings (many people are idiots, and if most people went armed, a large percentage of them would be armed idiots)/

Also probably at least some increase in “road rage” type shootings. Presently those who CC are a small, self-selected elite. If most people went armed the mix of armed people would change, and not for the better.

Imagine someone walking into a theater and opening fire. 100 people return fire, some of them probably inaccurately.


17 posted on 01/04/2014 3:15:28 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: logic101.net; Vendome
Too bad you couldn’t get Black Talons

I think someone is producing a round very much like the Black Talon, but with a different name. I seem to recall having seen one of those, but again, don't remember who makes it.

18 posted on 01/04/2014 4:00:55 AM PST by Hardastarboard (The question of our age is whether a majority of Americans can and will vote us all into slavery.)
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To: Sherman Logan
Your scary scenarios are NOT supported by the facts. Stop channeling liberals. In all the states that have "Constitutional Carry" NONE of your fantasy scenarios have played out in reality.

If you're afraid of carrying a gun, fine, DON'T. But don't project your problems on the rest of us, ok?

Idiot!

19 posted on 01/04/2014 4:05:29 AM PST by Neil E. Wright (An OATH is FOREVER OathKeeper III We are EVERYWHERE)
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To: Neil E. Wright

Thanks for your courteous and intelligent reply. / s

Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, is it?

I posited a world in which “most” people went armed, something that would be necessary if all or most attempted mass shooting were to be immediately opposed by armed civilians.

At present, there are about 8M CCW permit holders in the USA. Not all of them carry at all times. Let’s assume half do.

That means at any given time, 4M Americans, or about 1.5% are armed in public. That is a self-selected and very elite group. Few of them are idiots, and, as we know, the vast majority use their weapons responsibly.

Raise the armed percentage to 51%, and the group becomes a great deal less elite. It’s a hypothetical argument, because it isn’t going to happen. But I think it’s indisputable that if MOST people went armed, bad things would follow, though mass shootings would disappear.

I assume you will agree that a high percentage of the population are idiots. Look who they vote for! If MOST people went armed, a high percentage of those carrying would therefore, by definition, be idiots. Yet we are to assume that there would be no negative consequences following from millions of armed idiots on the street?


20 posted on 01/04/2014 4:33:02 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

In a parallel universe, those events might occur, but in THIS universe where we’ve had widespread CC for years, they haven’t.


21 posted on 01/04/2014 4:39:27 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino

I agree. That’s because those who go to the time and trouble to obtain a CCW permit are, more or less by definition, responsible people.

But they’re also probably considerably less than 1% of the population at any given time.

The article is about the (reasonably obvious) fact that if an armed responsible person is present when a mass shooting starts, it’s a lot more likely to get stopped before many people are killed.

But the chances of such a person being present at the right time and place are poor, because so few people go armed.

To stop most or all such shootings in this way, a great many more people would have to be armed. Which would create unintended consequences, because that much larger number would include people who aren’t responsible. Many people aren’t.


22 posted on 01/04/2014 4:45:55 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

>>Presently those who CC are a small, self-selected elite. If most people went armed the mix of armed people would change, and not for the better.

No one is saying that most people should be forced to carry. If the “small, self-selected elite” was permitted to carry anywhere, most active shooter situations would be resolved as soon as they begin. A CCW permit should be a permit to walk armed past a “No Guns” sign.


23 posted on 01/04/2014 4:51:45 AM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Sherman Logan

The facts are in, and they are opposite what you stated in #17.

In every state when CCW laws came in, crime went down, and your liberal fantasy of proliferating road-rage incidents did NOT happen.

Nice try, now scurry on back to the Daily Besst, HuffPo or DU, and report on your trolling expedition over to the Constitutional side.


24 posted on 01/04/2014 4:55:38 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Sherman Logan

Sure, not everybody is responsible like you and me. Give me a break! Get off your self-righteous high horse!


25 posted on 01/04/2014 4:56:42 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Bryanw92

When an active shooter is stopped by a cop, the average number of fatalities is 14. When an active shooter is stopped by a civilian, the average number of fatalities is 2.

Why? The armed civilian was already right there, while the cops may take ten minutes to arrive.

Gun free zones are free maniac murder zones. That’s why the Colorado shooter passed a half dozen theaters to attend the one that was posted as a gun-free zone.


26 posted on 01/04/2014 4:58:13 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Bryanw92
If the “small, self-selected elite” was permitted to carry anywhere, most active shooter situations would be resolved as soon as they begin.

There aren't enough people in this group to be there when needed in "most" cases.

To ensure that someone is present to oppose with force "most active shooter situations" would require a great many more people to be armed.

Most such situations do not really occur in public, in a crowd. Most occur in workplace situations, with a relatively small number of people present.

Look at Newtown. Six adults present. Possibly 1% of Americans go about armed. Even assuming guns had been allowed at the school, the chance of one of those six being armed would not have been high.

To prevent "most" mass shootings, a great many more people would have to go about armed. This, like anything else, would have both positive and negative effects.

27 posted on 01/04/2014 5:03:27 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

Imagine someone walking into a theater and opening fire. 100 people return fire, some of them probably inaccurately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORqc1x3_Evg


28 posted on 01/04/2014 5:08:46 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
But I think it’s indisputable that if MOST people went armed, bad things would follow, though mass shootings would disappear.

We've ALL seen the shootouts in the bar in Western movies.

I wonder how accurate they are?

29 posted on 01/04/2014 5:10:34 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Eggzackly.

Another scenario that is problematic.

Shooting breaks out at the mall. Four or five CCWs bravely advance to stop the killing.

How do they tell each other apart from the shooter? Isn’t there a fairly significant risk of blue on blue? The greater the number of CCWs that respond, doesn’t that risk go up?

I always think of this when a plain clothes TV cop is chasing a suspect down the street, weapon in hand. How is an onlooker supposed to distinguish this from an attempted murder in progress?


30 posted on 01/04/2014 5:16:02 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: neverdem
"Mass shootings like the ones that have occurred in recent years in Newtown, Conn., and Aurora, Colo., have tripled in recent years"

Did you hear about the mass shooting in a San Antonio theater that happened a week after the mass shooting in the Aurora theater?

No? Maybe it's because after the perp got off his first round, an armed off duty sheriff in the theater pulled her concealed handgun and plugged him.

31 posted on 01/04/2014 5:19:59 AM PST by norwaypinesavage (Galileo: In science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of one individual)
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To: Sherman Logan

>>There aren’t enough people in this group to be there when needed in “most” cases.

I live in Florida where concealed carry is common, so my perception is skewed. A sizable number of men in FL have CCW permits. Most do not carry all the time because of all the gun free zones. If we could get rid of the gun free zone, then more licensed people would carry and that would encourage more to get the license.

I agree that northeastern states and left coast states would be a problem since the men in those states are not the type to carry in large enough numbers. But, that’s an issue to be dealt with on a state-by-state basis and, IMO, those states deserve what they get.

There are so many men in my company (approx 2500 employees) with CCW permits that we got them to change the rules to allow us to keep firearms in our cars in the parking lot because we told the company that we were going to do it anyway. Company policy changed to a sort of “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy with regards to guns in the parking lot.

In states where men carry frequently, that is the mindset. We can stop active shooters in our state. The liberal states can try begging and pleading and using fire extinguishers and scissors.


32 posted on 01/04/2014 5:20:09 AM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Sherman Logan
Clearly, you need to stay at home, locked behind triple dead-bolts, hiding under your bed with 911 on your speed-dial button.

But please, stop projecting your own spinelessness, weak knees, and lack of courage and ability on the rest of us who are not so burdened.

33 posted on 01/04/2014 5:20:50 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Bryanw92

There was just a decision in Florida brought by an adult commuting student at the Univ. of North Florida in Jax. We can now have firearms in our cars on campus. That’s a step forward. Even guns allowed in cars means we will not be defenseless on the commute to school or work, at least. That is an improvement. Of course, the classrooms will still be gun-free zones, and hence magnets for murdering maniacs.


34 posted on 01/04/2014 5:25:37 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee

>>There was just a decision in Florida brought by an adult commuting student at the Univ. of North Florida in Jax. We can now have firearms in our cars on campus. That’s a step forward. Even guns allowed in cars means we will not be defenseless on the commute to school or work, at least. That is an improvement. Of course, the classrooms will still be gun-free zones, and hence magnets for murdering maniacs.

Yeah. But, at least we have guns in our cars now. But, if concealed carry meant “its none of your business if I have a gun” so we could walk past “No firearms” signs, then the people with permits could protect the rest of the class/office/theatre-goers.

To be honest, I often fail to see those signs on businesses anyway. They’re so small and with the clutter of all those “No skateboards or roller skating” signs, I just don’t notice them.


35 posted on 01/04/2014 5:35:21 AM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Bryanw92; Sherman Logan
This is posted now on FR. A shootout in a restaurant! Dozens hit by gunfire! Nope, didn't happen. Restaurant employee shoots armed would-be robbers San Diego Union-Tribune ^ | 1/4/2014 | Susan Shroder Posted on ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2014‎ ‎3‎:‎17‎:‎21‎ ‎AM by South40 VISTA — An employee at a Vista restaurant fired shots at two men who tried to rob the business at gunpoint Friday night, a sheriff’s official said. The attempted robbery was reported about 9:40 p.m. at Uncle Tony’s Italian Cuisine on Sycamore Avenue, near Shadowridge Drive. The employee said he fired several shots at the attempted robbers, who fled without taking anything, sheriff’s Lt. Dave Schaller said. He told deputies he thought he hit both of them. No blood was found at the scene, but two gunshot victims showed up about midnight at a North County hospital, Schaller said. The men fled in a white two-door vehicle, possibly a Honda, the lieutenant said. One was described as Latino, about 5 feet 5 inches tall, with a medium build. He wore a black hoodie, a blue bandanna over his face and khaki pants. The other man was described only as about 6 feet 2 inches tall, with his face covered. Both carried handguns.
36 posted on 01/04/2014 5:38:24 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Sherman Logan
I always think of this when a plain clothes TV cop is chasing a suspect down the street, weapon in hand. How is an onlooker supposed to distinguish this from an attempted murder in progress?

You can't. The chaser MIGHT be trying to kill the chasee, and yelling, "I am a cop!" and flashing a badge.

You still can't 'know'.

This world will never be perfect.

37 posted on 01/04/2014 5:51:02 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Bryanw92
Most do not carry all the time because of all the gun free zones.

WHAT???


38 posted on 01/04/2014 5:52:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Bryanw92
Most do not carry all the time because of all the gun free zones.

WHAT???


Solution:



39 posted on 01/04/2014 5:54:57 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Travis McGee

FActs are that the student will more likely die from a car wreck driving to and from shoot than be shot by a crazy person.


40 posted on 01/04/2014 5:56:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Travis McGee

The brilliant T. Sowell says, “There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.” I think this is very nearly a concise summation of the conservative worldview.

The article is about the obvious fact that if there were more people walking around armed fewer mass shootings would succeed. Do you disagee?

So I try to start a discussion about what the tradeoffs in such a world might be. To which you and others respond by calling names and asserting there would BE no tradeoffs.

To some freepers guns are magic implements, the inverse of the liberal attitude. Guns cause good things to happen by their very presence, just as liberals think they track people down and murder them.

Guns are tools, like any other tool they can be used wisely or poorly. The more of them around and in use, like any other tool, the more misuses and accidents will occur.

But we’re not supposed to discuss such issues, because that would be cowardly. We’re supposed to pretend only good things happen with increased use of guns.


41 posted on 01/04/2014 6:11:31 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Elsie

Shoot = school?

Who knew!


42 posted on 01/04/2014 6:20:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan
We’re supposed to pretend only good things happen with increased use of guns.

Airbags 'protect' us too, but then why are there warnings about them in my car?

43 posted on 01/04/2014 6:21:24 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Sherman Logan

>>Guns are tools, like any other tool they can be used wisely or poorly. The more of them around and in use, like any other tool, the more misuses and accidents will occur.

>>But we’re not supposed to discuss such issues, because that would be cowardly. We’re supposed to pretend only good things happen with increased use of guns.

I have used tools for my entire life. If you respect the capabilities and limitations of the tool, you will be safe. For every woodworker with 3 fingers on his hand, there are a million with 5.

Adding more guns to the mix may not be 100% perfect, but the shooter in an active shooter situation has already added one gun to the mix and that is certainly bad. So, you are right—to say that adding a few more in the hands of good people IS cowardly.


44 posted on 01/04/2014 6:36:09 AM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Travis McGee

Is there a link to this?
I’m trying to put the keyword, “armedcitizen,” on these kind of threads for future reference.
Thanks.


45 posted on 01/04/2014 6:41:21 AM PST by RandallFlagg (IRS = Internal Revenge Service)
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To: Bryanw92

So why isn’t anyone from either party or gun rights organization talking about repealing the 1990 Gun Free School Zones Act?


46 posted on 01/04/2014 6:59:15 AM PST by ez (Muslims do not play well with others.)
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To: ez

Armed Citizens?

Reminds me of the old west days when everybody (supposedly) carried a gun. Lot of things got settled real quick and then it was on to the saloon to celebrate the demise of the villan.

I guess I would be up for that.


47 posted on 01/04/2014 7:04:35 AM PST by DaveA37
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To: ez
Armed Citizens?

Reminds me of the old west days when everybody (supposedly) carried a gun. Lot of things got settled real quick and then it was on to the saloon to celebrate the demise of the villan.

I guess I would be up for that.

48 posted on 01/04/2014 7:05:02 AM PST by DaveA37
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To: ez
So why isn’t anyone from either party or gun rights organization talking about repealing the 1990 Gun Free School Zones Act?

Yeah, right.

49 posted on 01/04/2014 7:06:06 AM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: neverdem

An Arizona expression is that anyone using a gun in a crime in Arizona is either “not from here”; or is so crazy that they don’t care if people are shooting at them.

This implies several things which are self-evident truths of common public gun ownership.

1) Mass shooting tend to happen in “gun free zones” for two reasons. First is that the shooter can focus on shooting people, instead of worrying about being shot.

And second, because there is no one there to shoot him. It’s noteworthy that in several such instances, as soon as someone with a gun showed up to stop the shooter, the shooter killed themselves. They were *prepared* to kill themselves when that happened. What the shooter craves is *time* to kill others before someone with a gun arrives. If there are guns in the area, they might not get to kill *anyone* before being shot, so it ruins their scheme.

2) Insane but still partially functional people have a problem inhibiting their mental illness themselves. But knowing that there are armed people about, who may very well shoot them if they do something dangerous, reinforces their inhibitions against going on a rampage.

The exception to this rule are those that are *so* insane, that they don’t care if others are shooting at them, like Jerad Loughner in Tucson. He is so incredibly nuts that he cannot stand trial, and will be forced to take antipsychotic drugs for the rest of his abbreviated life.


50 posted on 01/04/2014 7:27:35 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (There Is Still A Very Hot War On Terror, Just Not On The MSM. Rantburg.com)
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