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Kelly Thomas case: Jurors may be told to disregard some testimony
Los Angeles Times ^ | January 3, 2014 | Adolpho Flores

Posted on 01/05/2014 11:50:49 AM PST by FBD

Jurors in the trial of two former Fullerton police officers accused of beating a mentally ill homeless man to death will probably be told to disregard the opinions of witnesses who said the two acted within department policy.The admonition is expected to be part of jury instructions that are still being negotiated by attorneys in the trial over the beating death of Kelly Thomas.“You are ordered to disregard those opinions,” a draft of the admonition says. “It is up to you to determine whether the defendants used excessive or unreasonable force based on all the evidence that has been presented in this trial but you may not consider evidence that has been stricken.”The probable instruction results from prosecutors' attempts to challenge the testimony of two witnesses who said defendants Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli acted, for the most part, within Fullerton Police Department policy.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: donutwatch; fullerton; kellythomas
Defense witness -Fullerton police Cpl. Stephen Rubio, a former use-of-force trainer with the department, said the actions of Ramos and Cicinelli were within department policies. His testimony will be ignored, since these officers were fired... for something the city is fighting to keep from being revealed.
1 posted on 01/05/2014 11:50:49 AM PST by FBD
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To: DariusBane; null and void

Culture of corruption ping.
City fights to keep firings of two officers secret.


2 posted on 01/05/2014 11:53:20 AM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

A trial is never a search for the truth.

Lawyers like to claim it is — they are lying.


3 posted on 01/05/2014 11:58:03 AM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: BenLurkin

Hide and deny. The city of Fullerton has been in full CYA mode on this one.


4 posted on 01/05/2014 12:01:12 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: driftdiver; bobby.223

Ping
Kelly Thomas beating trial goes to the jury, with instructions to ignore defense witness testimony that officers acted within department policy.


5 posted on 01/05/2014 12:05:26 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

Sorry Judge, the jurors are in charge. Or, they should be...


6 posted on 01/05/2014 12:08:29 PM PST by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: FBD

This seemed so clear cut case of police brutality at the time. The cop putting on the gloves and telling Thomas he was going to F him up. And that beating, so savage. The poor mentally ill guy calling out for his daddy. But I haven’t heard all the testimony. The cops put on a long defense.

What does everyone here think?


7 posted on 01/05/2014 12:10:46 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: FBD

I remember that case very well. It happened the year before the last elections. So sad, and pitiful. The man was mildly retarded, and kept hollering for his father. “Dad!! They’re killing me!”, and the jury is supposed to say “I didn’t hear that”?. If you get people who dont follow the news, then you may find some who never heard of his violent beating death by multiple police. It must all come back to the way they are chosen and they way they are trained. The police either already fit a psychologic mold coming in or morph to fit this mindset during training.


8 posted on 01/05/2014 12:16:49 PM PST by lee martell
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To: andyk

In this case, the judge is telling the jurors to ignore the testimony of a liar for the defense. Officers Ramos and Cicinelli were fired because of this fatal beating. So their actions couldn’t have been within department policy.


9 posted on 01/05/2014 12:17:02 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: lee martell

I suspect a guilty verdict will be reached on all counts next week.


10 posted on 01/05/2014 12:18:29 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: Yaelle

I don’t think there’s ever been a more open and shut case of police brutality. What’s disturbing is, these officers and the police chief really didn’t believe they did anything wrong.


11 posted on 01/05/2014 12:21:04 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: Altariel; truth_seeker; Uncle Chip; puppypusher; Orangedog; GeronL

Ping

Kelly Thomas beating trial jury instructions


12 posted on 01/05/2014 12:24:41 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD
Defense witness -Fullerton police Cpl. Stephen Rubio, a former use-of-force trainer with the department, said the actions of Ramos and Cicinelli were within department policies. His testimony will be ignored, since these officers were fired... for something the city is fighting to keep from being revealed.

"We were only following policy" should no more be a defense for police officers than "We were only following orders" was at Nirenberg.

If anything, such policy should, rather than being a defense, trigger prosecution of the police hierarchy that allowed such policy.

13 posted on 01/05/2014 12:24:52 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Agree!
-Interesting that the city refuses to release the firing records for those officers isn’t it.


14 posted on 01/05/2014 12:27:59 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: BenLurkin

I was a jury foreman on a murder trial once. 45 pages of jury instruction on how to apply the law and what to consider, week of testimony, etc etc. I ignored the instructions. It ain’t rocket science. Jury is suppose to do “what is right”. I just needed to know... 1) did he kill the guy 2) was it on purpose or accident 3) was it self defense. Answer those three questions and then do “what is right”. The heck with what the lawyers say.


15 posted on 01/05/2014 12:28:22 PM PST by kjam22 (my newest music video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7gNI9bWO3s)
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To: FBD

If I were on that jury I would convict them of the murder of Kelly Thomas.those officers were well above the normal use of force to neutralize any potential threat that could have been produced by Thomas.

Those S.O.B.’s are Guilty as hell.


16 posted on 01/05/2014 12:29:57 PM PST by puppypusher ( The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: kjam22

Good points. That sounds like common sense thinking to me.


17 posted on 01/05/2014 12:30:52 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

I’d agree that beating someone to death isn’t explicitly allowed in policy. I don’t agree that policy doesn’t encourage these types of things to occur.

From hiring, to training, to ‘officer safety’ all of those things create a mindset where this becomes acceptable.


18 posted on 01/05/2014 12:32:48 PM PST by driftdiver (I coso men havent could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: puppypusher

I suspect we’re going to see guilty verdicts next week. That’s probably gonna get the other cop charged in this case to seek a plea bargain.


19 posted on 01/05/2014 12:34:01 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

It this instance is appears to be the prosecution that is trying to hide information from the jury.


20 posted on 01/05/2014 12:35:11 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: driftdiver
I'd be a great jury foreman in this case. "All this creates a mindset where this becomes acceptable". Whatever... guilty as charged. We'll see you in about 40 years. Have a nice day.
21 posted on 01/05/2014 12:36:50 PM PST by kjam22 (my newest music video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7gNI9bWO3s)
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To: driftdiver

They (the Fullerton police dept.) definitely approved of this beating. The dept. sat on this case for months. They fought the release of the transit video, and now they’re fighting the release of records of these two officers. Their policies are wrapped in a culture of corruption.


22 posted on 01/05/2014 12:39:47 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

They need to die slowly, ignominiously and screaming in pain for the foul hos that begot them. That’s justice.


23 posted on 01/05/2014 12:45:49 PM PST by Anton.Rutter
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To: BenLurkin

Am i mistaken here? My read was that the prosecution wanted the personnel records of Ramos and Cicinelli, and the reason(s) they were fired. The defense and the city both fought that release, from my understanding.


24 posted on 01/05/2014 12:47:00 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

Imagine saying...”they broke into the home and killed the family during the robbery.... but they learned this from their family environment. It was a product of their raising. Their father had modeled it for them. The gang they were in taught them to rob and steal. They weren’t smart enough to overcome their bad raising. It was acceptable in the culture they were raised and taught in. It was definitely okay for the people that had influence on thier lives.”


25 posted on 01/05/2014 12:47:42 PM PST by kjam22 (my newest music video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7gNI9bWO3s)
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To: kjam22

It does matter, because even if these two are convicted the other cops and managers will only double down unless you change them.


26 posted on 01/05/2014 12:47:51 PM PST by driftdiver (I coso men havent could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

You just build bigger prisons for the rest of them. And after you throw these guys in prison you elect city officials who will fire the police chief etc.... or who will instruct the city attorney to press charges against the chief. That’s the way the system works.


27 posted on 01/05/2014 12:52:33 PM PST by kjam22 (my newest music video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7gNI9bWO3s)
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To: kjam22

Yeah, I don’t think that would fly. But it does in the LEO world, apparently.


28 posted on 01/05/2014 12:52:46 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

Ya, agreed, the testimony was whack. It always seems odd to hear a judge say ignore what you just heard. For me, it would’ve colored my judgment inasmuch as it seems to be blatant covering up by friends in what should be positions of respect.


29 posted on 01/05/2014 12:53:37 PM PST by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: Anton.Rutter

It will be interesting to see what kind of sentence will be meted out, if found guilty. Segregated prison housing?


30 posted on 01/05/2014 12:55:36 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

I could be the one mistaken.

Either way — it demonstrates how trials are a farce.


31 posted on 01/05/2014 12:55:46 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: andyk

What’s heard cannot be unheard. No matter what the judge’s instructions are. I don’t think it will play in the favor of the defense.


32 posted on 01/05/2014 1:01:36 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: BenLurkin

Agreed. Why are they allowing the personnel records to be hidden? Gotta be a liability issue for the city.


33 posted on 01/05/2014 1:07:21 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: FBD

“He said that even though Thomas could be heard saying he couldn’t breathe and was apologizing to officers, Craig didn’t believe the officers should have gotten off him because Thomas continued to fight them.”
Or of course he was thrashing about as someone being denied air will do.


34 posted on 01/05/2014 1:17:54 PM PST by wiggen (The teacher card. When the racism card just won't work.)
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To: lee martell; FBD
It must all come back to the way they are chosen and they way they are trained. The police either already fit a psychologic mold coming in or morph to fit this mindset during training.

Bad news if there's ever an outfit that selects for amoral officers with so little regard for human life.

Maybe you've seen this video and related story about deadly dogs chasing cats despite being asked to back off by dispatch, or this story about how after an hour-long chase and 38 cop cars, a nut in a Corvette was gunned down, presumably for reckless driving! Never occurred to the cops to wait until the guy ran out of gas. They had aerial recon. There's no way the guy was going to get away...

It's "police" boys such as these who make up Brownshirts. A man with a conscience would have walked away long before shots were fired or beatings were commenced.

35 posted on 01/05/2014 2:41:50 PM PST by Finny (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. -- Psalm 119:105)
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To: BenLurkin

Our trial system is adversarial. I don’t know of any competent lawyer who would say otherwise.


36 posted on 01/05/2014 2:48:22 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Moonman62

Of course it is — but I have heard attorneys tell juries that they will be participating in a “search for the truth.”


37 posted on 01/05/2014 2:50:42 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Yaelle

I say by the time a beating becomes life threatening, you’ve long last the ability to resist. It just isn’t that easy to beat a person to death. It is a very willfull act.


38 posted on 01/06/2014 5:56:42 AM PST by LevinFan
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To: FBD

” What’s disturbing is, these officers and
the police chief really didn’t believe they
did anything wrong.”

I’ve seen a lot of cop comments much as you say. They just can’t, or won’t see actions as wrong. Look at how defensive LE was of the newspaper ladies shot in the Dorner hunt.


39 posted on 01/06/2014 6:01:55 AM PST by LevinFan
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To: wiggen

” Or of course he was thrashing about as
someone being denied air will do.”

Nor will cops recognize that if you send the message that you aren’t taking prisoners today, all reason to try to surrender becomes worthless.


40 posted on 01/06/2014 6:10:55 AM PST by LevinFan
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