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Is Germany's Gold Housed in New York, Paris and London All Gone?
zerohedge ^ | 1-7 2014

Posted on 01/08/2014 8:38:12 AM PST by dennisw

foreward by JS Kim, Managing Director of SmartKnowledgeU

Here is a recent correspondence from our friend Lars Schall, an independent financial journalist, and the German Central Bank, the Deutsche Bundesbank, regarding the exact whereabouts and specifications of Germany’s national gold reserve. From the correspondence below, it appears that the US Central Bank had already leased out Germany’s gold reserves in prior years and no longer has it, as the gold bars the US Central Bankers returned to Germany last year were clearly not the same ones that Germany originally deposited with them. The questions Mr. Schall’s revelations now beg is (1) if the Banque de France and the Bank of England have Germany’s original gold as well; and (2) if the various Central Bankers are deliberately returning Germany’s gold on a painfully slow timeline because they have already leased out Germany’s gold into the open market in prior years, no longer hold it, and must
therefore scrape together Germany's gold from the open market now.

 

 

Below is Mr. Schall’s inquiry to the Deutsche Bundesbank:

 

December 26, 2013

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am an independent financial journalist. In connection with the transfer of 37 tons of Bundesbank gold from New York to Germany, I came across the news that the bars were a melted before the transfer. May I kindly ask you for the following information:

Why were the bars melted at all? And why couldn’t that wait until the bars arrived in Frankfurt?

Kind regards,

Lars Schall


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: germany; germanygold; gold; goldcoatedtungsten; tungsten
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1 posted on 01/08/2014 8:38:12 AM PST by dennisw
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To: dennisw

>>>>>>read more at the source

>>>>>>>> the short story is how come The Fed didn’t give back to Germany the exact same gold bars that Germany put in the Feds vaults a few decades ago? Bars that have the Bundesbank stamp and assay on them?

>>>>>> Seems the Fed sold these Bundesbank bars and had to buy new ones on the open market to satisfy Germany’s demand for its gold


3 posted on 01/08/2014 8:41:23 AM PST by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: dennisw

Is this why Hillary and Obama overthrew the government of Libya? They needed Qadaffi’s gold? My my.....that would be rather mercenary of the Democrats.


4 posted on 01/08/2014 8:44:14 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: dennisw

theyd call it a Ponzi scheme for us


5 posted on 01/08/2014 8:45:18 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: dennisw

Is the Fed secretly behind all the “Cash for Gold” shops everywhere? Are they buying up all the gold chains and teeth to remelt into LGD compliant bars to ship to Germany?

Anybody got some more tinfoil?


6 posted on 01/08/2014 8:45:30 AM PST by Paine in the Neck (Socialism consumes everything)
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To: dennisw

Should just tell Germany, not to necessarily Pound Sand, but perhaps to Pound Beijing.


7 posted on 01/08/2014 8:45:32 AM PST by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: blueunicorn6

Killing people and confiscating their assets? Sounds like Obamacare.


8 posted on 01/08/2014 8:46:06 AM PST by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: dennisw

IMO, the Fed is the Wizard of Oz that has tremendous perceived power and value, but in reality is a smoky wisp of curtained deception, purloined gold and even more dubiously evil duplicity in the accounting of its books.

I believe our last 4 or 5 Presidents have kept the secret that the Federal Reserve is nothing more than a ‘find the pea’ street game.


9 posted on 01/08/2014 8:46:08 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: US Navy Vet

The thieves sold our gold AND the gold we were storing for Germany. That’s the point.


10 posted on 01/08/2014 8:46:14 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: blueunicorn6

Here in TX we were barraged in the grocery stores! to sell our gold for years. Still ongoing, but not as intense as it was.


11 posted on 01/08/2014 8:47:13 AM PST by txhurl
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To: dennisw
I would love to see the details of the contract under which Germany deposited the gold. Did the contract specify that their gold bars would be stored in a segregated manner, or did they just deposit a specific weight of gold and had rights to get that amount of gold back? Did they have a notification requirement or was the gold to be available upon demand?

If you deposit money at the bank, you don't expect to get the same bills back and might have to wait to get it depending on the account you put it in. On the other hand you expect to get the same bills back if you put them in a safe deposit box or else someone has picked the lock. In which way were the Germans promised the Federal Reserve would act? And did the Fed get caught dipping into the till by selling short gold which they had no contractual right to access in anticipation that they would never be caught?

Without knowing the terms of the deposit contract, I have no idea whether the Fed was acting in bad faith or not.

12 posted on 01/08/2014 8:48:59 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Everyone get online for Obamacare on 10/1. Overload the system and crash it hard!)
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To: Paine in the Neck

Is the Fed secretly behind all the “Cash for Gold” shops everywhere?


That’s what I’ve always suspected. Trading useless binary dollars for the real thing. How much did this acquisition cost?


13 posted on 01/08/2014 8:49:06 AM PST by txhurl
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To: dennisw
I went to my bank and withdrew cash from the ATM.

The problem was, these were not the exact same $20 bills that I gave them!

They switched them out and gave me different $20 bills!

This is a scandal!

What happened to my 20s? I smell a conspiracy!

14 posted on 01/08/2014 8:49:39 AM PST by wideawake
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To: US Navy Vet

The question I want to know is “Is all of the United States’ GOLD in Ft Knox all “GONE”?!”


It’s probably been gone for a long time. Shipped to China.


15 posted on 01/08/2014 8:49:45 AM PST by chessplayer
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To: dennisw
'I am an independent financial journalist. In connection with the transfer of 37 tons of Bundesbank gold from New York to Germany, I came across the news that the bars were a melted before the transfer. May I kindly ask you for the following information:

Why were the bars melted at all? And why couldn’t that wait until the bars arrived in Frankfurt?

Kind regards,'

Wow, kinda starts off like a Nigerian email scam. Be very careful Zerohedge...

16 posted on 01/08/2014 8:51:17 AM PST by Theoria (End Socialism : No more GOP and Dem candidates)
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To: C210N
 

Should just tell Germany, not to necessarily Pound Sand, but perhaps to Pound Beijing.

You are right!! The story goes that since China buys up all large amounts of gold put on the market.....that the Federal Reserve has difficulty buying gold bars to send to the Germans.

17 posted on 01/08/2014 8:52:38 AM PST by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: KarlInOhio
I would love to see the details of the contract under which Germany deposited the gold. Did the contract specify that their gold bars would be stored in a segregated manner, or did they just deposit a specific weight of gold and had rights to get that amount of gold back? Did they have a notification requirement or was the gold to be available upon demand?

The popular image is that each nations gold is held in a separate bullpen. You see this in movies and in photos. In other words segregated (as you wrote).

>>>>>> This German gold was deposited at the NY Fed during the Cold War when a Soviet invasion or attack was a possibilty. Why tempt the Russkies by holding so much gold so close to East Germany and Russian tanks? So it was sent to NY

18 posted on 01/08/2014 8:57:47 AM PST by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: US Navy Vet

When you tell Germany you cannot return the gold you are supposedly holding for them for 7 years that means you have probably leased it out and you don’t have it any more. Extrapolating out a little further one could deduce that you also don’t have sufficient gold of your own to go ahead and give Germany their gold back now and then reimburse yourself later from the leased gold.

If memory serves correctly and I’m sure some sharp Freeper will correct me if wrong the gold in Ft Knox has not been audited since the mid sixties and noboby has been allowed in to veiw it.


19 posted on 01/08/2014 8:58:25 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

Since 1955.


20 posted on 01/08/2014 8:59:21 AM PST by Publius ("Who is John Galt?" by Billthedrill and Publius now available at Amazon.)
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To: dennisw
if the various Central Bankers are deliberately returning Germany’s gold on a painfully slow timeline because they have already leased out Germany’s gold into the open market in prior years, no longer hold it, and must therefore scrape together Germany's gold from the open market now.

Even if the gold bars are still there, there might be difficulty in unwinding ownership. For example if Germany deposits the gold and person A borrows it to sell it short to person B. Then person C borrows B's gold and sells it short to D. Now Germany, B and D all claim the same gold bars, which may have never left the shelf at the Fed, while the Fed, A and C all owe the gold to someone. Everything is "fine" just so long as no one abrogates their contracts or demands physical delivery of the gold. However when Germany demanded the gold, that put at risk everyone involved in the chain of short sales.

This is similar to a run on the bank where most of the bank's money is lent out to earn interest. Once the bank refuses to pay a deposit, the whole house of cards crashes. The fed is trying to act like a far less honest version of George Bailey trying to calm the crowd and convince them that they don't need their deposits back right away.

21 posted on 01/08/2014 9:02:20 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Everyone get online for Obamacare on 10/1. Overload the system and crash it hard!)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

Ted’s Senate page new post is #auditthefed.


22 posted on 01/08/2014 9:02:26 AM PST by txhurl
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To: Publius

“Since 1955.”

Worse than I thought.

Mr. GG2 has speculated that there may be a big stack of tungsten plated with gold sitting in Ft Knox.


23 posted on 01/08/2014 9:03:10 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: MrB
The thieves sold our gold AND the gold we were storing for Germany. That’s the point.

Yep. Find one and you'll find the other.

24 posted on 01/08/2014 9:03:12 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: dennisw

Melting probably proved they weren’t gold coated tungsten.


25 posted on 01/08/2014 9:04:24 AM PST by Cold Heart
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To: wideawake; All

This is what I don’t understand about this story. It seems like a non-story, because of the analogy you gave.

Can someone explain, why is it such a big deal that Germany didn’t get back the exact gold bars they deposited? Is it still not gold? Do the ones they received not weigh the same? Why should it be considered anything more than shoddy business practice (if even that)?


26 posted on 01/08/2014 9:05:13 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: wideawake

Ah, but the ATM didn’t flash a message that said

“we have no twenty dollar bills to give you”


27 posted on 01/08/2014 9:06:26 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: dennisw

Much, not all of the worlds gold is housed beneath NYC. It is in caches for each nation and is transferred back and forth daily to satisfy national obligations. The gold itself goes nowhere except back and forth between the cages.


28 posted on 01/08/2014 9:07:09 AM PST by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: wideawake
I went to my bank and withdrew cash from the ATM. The problem was, these were not the exact same $20 bills that I gave them!

But suppose you deposited many $20 bills with the bank. And then when you went to the ATM to withdraw some of them, you got this printed message:

"Your request has been noted. It will take us 7 years to complete your request. You will hear from us in 7 years. Have a nice day."

29 posted on 01/08/2014 9:08:11 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: dennisw
Why didn't they get the original bars back?

Because they weren't done with them.

30 posted on 01/08/2014 9:08:19 AM PST by logi_cal869
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To: dennisw

Addendum: I meant to put a question mark at the end of that...


31 posted on 01/08/2014 9:09:48 AM PST by logi_cal869
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To: FourtySeven
The question is did they pay for it to be treated like a safe deposit box or like a deposit account? If you put an envelope of cash in the safe deposit box and when you asked for access to it, but suddenly the bank employees started running around, making phone calls while one tries to distract you with coffee and donuts, you might suspect that they were opening the boxes to make extra money by lending the contents.

Seven years for a payback does seem to be ridiculous unless this withdrawal threatens to knock down an entire house of cards.

32 posted on 01/08/2014 9:10:08 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Everyone get online for Obamacare on 10/1. Overload the system and crash it hard!)
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To: Cold Heart
Melting probably proved they weren’t gold coated tungsten.

Good point. With my tinfoil hat on too tight I had been thinking the melting was to insert tungsten but it makes more sense that Gernmany required the melt to prove that there was not tungsten.

33 posted on 01/08/2014 9:10:25 AM PST by Paine in the Neck (Socialism consumes everything)
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To: wideawake

faulty analogy

a more accurate one would be you retrieving your safe deposit box and the pictures and documents were not the same but duplicates of the ones you placed in there originally.

Germany’s gold was stored in a vault. the intention is that it would not move and would not be touched.

obviously, that is incorrect and the rest of the world needs to comprehend the magnitude of that


34 posted on 01/08/2014 9:11:33 AM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: C210N

If Germany cannot trust the US Government to honor the deposits made, why should ANYONE on the planet do so?

If substantial rumors of this grow, the US Dollar as a world currency, let alone THE World currency, is doomed. With the US AT LEAST 17 Trillion in debt, no plan to reduce it and no indication of fiscal responsibility (”Print, Print, Print” being the motto of the Federal Reserve/US Treasury) people & nations will begin to do an over-print on US bills which reads “The Untied States of Ponzi” and use them for fire starter.

Once the panic starts, you ain’t never seen a ‘run on the bank’ like this will be. When we were in Vietnam the US issued “MPC”, Military Payment Certificates for the US troops to use in the PX, etc. They had images of various, usually classical looking, ladies. These were NOT supposed to be used outside the US military, but invariably tons went into the local Vietnamese economy. Every few months they would change the series and we had to exchange our old MPC for the new bills. (”Hey, what do the girls look like this time?”)

They would lock down the (rear area) bases one morning unannounced, then we’d all swap our money before being allowed out the gate to go to the PX. Once the exchanges were done, we’d head to the PX, hitching a ride on a passing 6-by. The roads outside the bases would be lined with Vietnamese waving bundles of the old MPC, hoping to get 10 cents on the dollar, to exchange for the new series bills.

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” Revelation 18:2,3


35 posted on 01/08/2014 9:13:17 AM PST by BwanaNdege
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To: dennisw

If I was a German citizen, I’d INSIST that my government accelerate the repatriation of the nation’s overseas gold bullion reserves. And I’d insist that the returned “bullion” be tested like hell to determine 100% authenticity.

Just as in any Ponzi scheme, the ones who get out of the scam at “the end” will be getting out with next to nothing (or, more likely, nothing).


36 posted on 01/08/2014 9:14:12 AM PST by House Atreides
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To: US Navy Vet

The question I want to know is “Is all of the United States’ GOLD in Ft Knox all “GONE”?!” I couldn’t give a SH!T LESS about Kraut GOLD!

The Gold in Ft. Knox is probably there... Probably in a thinly wrapped layer around a whole bunch of tungsten bars....


37 posted on 01/08/2014 9:15:32 AM PST by GraceG
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To: dennisw

Look at that price drop! Quick stir up some stories about the FED having to buy gold.

38 posted on 01/08/2014 9:17:23 AM PST by DannyTN (A>)
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To: FourtySeven
The question is did they pay for it to be treated like a safe deposit box or like a deposit account? If you put an envelope of cash in the safe deposit box and when you asked for access to it, but suddenly the bank employees started running around, making phone calls while one tries to distract you with coffee and donuts, you might suspect that they were opening the boxes to make extra money by lending the contents.

Seven years for a payback does seem to be ridiculous unless this withdrawal threatens to knock down an entire house of cards.

39 posted on 01/08/2014 9:17:29 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Everyone get online for Obamacare on 10/1. Overload the system and crash it hard!)
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To: All
I think this comment was the most interesting -

“...The very fact that repatriation of 300 tons is scheduled to take 7-10 years tells you everything you really need to know. Fed Ex could deliver that to Frankfurt in a single afternoon if you contracted the transport to them...”

40 posted on 01/08/2014 9:18:47 AM PST by az_gila
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To: Paine in the Neck

[ Is the Fed secretly behind all the “Cash for Gold” shops everywhere? Are they buying up all the gold chains and teeth to remelt into LGD compliant bars to ship to Germany?

Anybody got some more tinfoil? ]

Here is a wild theory...

The Annunaki have returned to “mine” more gold but it is easier to have their agents infiltrate the fed, create money out of thin air and use the cash for gold places to “mine” us of our gold....

But this theory really belongs on kook 2 kook am and not FR.


41 posted on 01/08/2014 9:19:06 AM PST by GraceG
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To: Cold Heart
Melting probably proved they weren’t gold coated tungsten.

There are now various tests (speed of sound tests, for example) that can show whether a bar is pure gold or not. Such tests are much easier than having to melt and reform each and every bar.

I suspect that they are melting the gold because the original ones with the German stamps are long gone. The question is, where did they go?

42 posted on 01/08/2014 9:21:04 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: BwanaNdege

great story!!!!


43 posted on 01/08/2014 9:22:04 AM PST by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: sten

‘Bars that have the Bundesbank stamp and assay on them’
Meaning that this is Germany’s property.


44 posted on 01/08/2014 9:25:14 AM PST by griswold3 (Post-Christian America is living on borrowed moral heritage)
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To: az_gila

[ I think this comment was the most interesting -

“...The very fact that repatriation of 300 tons is scheduled to take 7-10 years tells you everything you really need to know. Fed Ex could deliver that to Frankfurt in a single afternoon if you contracted the transport to them...” ]

They contracted through Hansel and Gretel to move one gold bar at a time. In order not to get lost they scrape off a little bit of gold as they travel to leave a trail.... By the time they reach germany not much of the original bar is left... but they have to use what is left of that bar to get back to New York to start the process over again....

H & G Mono Gold Bar Moving Limited Inc. needs to invest in a GPS... they are literally eating their way through gold in order to ensure they don’t get lost...


45 posted on 01/08/2014 9:25:34 AM PST by GraceG
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To: Enterprise

“Killing people and confiscating their assets? Sounds like Obamacare.”

Sounds like what the Nazis did with the Jews, actually.

Wonder what a Jew-skinned lampshade goes for on E-bay?


46 posted on 01/08/2014 9:32:37 AM PST by RinaseaofDs
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To: FourtySeven
Can someone explain, why is it such a big deal that Germany didn’t get back the exact gold bars they deposited?

In my mind that's not really the issue unless, like others have pointed out, they were supposed to get back the very same bars they had deposited. The real issue here is that Germany asked for ALL it's gold back and the Federal Reserve said "sure, we've got it around here somewhere. Give us seven years and we'll have that right back to you." Imagine going to the bank to make a withdrawal and the bank telling you to come back in seven years to get your money.
47 posted on 01/08/2014 9:32:42 AM PST by 762X51
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To: KarlInOhio

Good points there. It does seem to be a valid question to ask (I’m assuming for now they paid for safety, not for a deposit account, which is what would make this a scandal, at least of sorts)

I must admit I return to the point of identity: gold is gold. I don’t see a problem with getting different gold bars back (even for a “safety deposit box” type situation). That’s at worst, shoddy business but it’s not theft, because again, they’re getting their gold back.

The real question would seem to me to be one of timing. Did they have to wait a long time to get the gold back? Is it true it took 7 years to get their gold back? (To me it’s not clear after reading the article how long of a delay there was between a request for the gold and actual delivery). That surely should raise some eyebrows, if true.


48 posted on 01/08/2014 9:33:52 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: dennisw

49 posted on 01/08/2014 9:35:03 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: BwanaNdege
in Vietnam the US issued “MPC”...

That's interesting. I was recently reading about G. Washington's issues, 1777 - 1783, with local currency and British currency. He had to pay some of the Culper spies with British, as they by necessity went behind enemy lines, and needed to blend in. But, also had to deal with British attempts to counterfeit with the purpose of debasing the currency and thwart patriot attempts to keep Washington supplied.

50 posted on 01/08/2014 9:38:35 AM PST by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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