Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

U.S. Chamber of Commerce Drops Crusade Against Obamacare
eba.benefitnews.com ^ | JANUARY 14, 2014 | ELLIOT M. KASS

Posted on 01/18/2014 12:11:06 PM PST by Qbert

In a striking about face, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce will no longer seek the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, working instead to correct what it sees as its flaws.

It was three years ago this month, during his annual State of American Business address, that the Chamber’s president and CEO, Tom Donahue, labeled the ACA “unworkable” and called for its repeal. During last week’s address he softened his views, calling instead for business-friendly adjustments to the new law.

“The administration is obviously committed to keeping the law in place, so the chamber has been working pragmatically to fix those parts of Obamacare that can be fixed -- while doing everything we can to make regulations and mandates as manageable as possible for businesses,” Donohue said during the speech. “In 2014, we will work to repeal onerous healthcare taxes; repeal, delay or change the employer mandate; and give companies and their employees more flexibility in the choice of health insurance plans.”

Acknowledging that outright repeal of the employer mandate -- already delayed until January 2015 -- is unlikely, the Chamber’s executive director, Katie Mahoney indicated that the group might be satisfied with some modifications. Specifically, the Chamber wants a change to the law’s definition of full-time employees from those working 30 hours a week to those working 40 hours or more. Under the ACA, large employers with 50 or more full-time employees must provide them with health coverage starting next year.

(Excerpt) Read more at eba.benefitnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 113th; abortion; aca; bho44; cap; capdonorlist; chamberofamnesty; chamberofcommerce; deathpanels; obamacare; podesta; sellouts; tomdonahue; zerocare
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051 next last
The good ol' Chamber. When they're not out fighting for illegal aliens to replace American workers, they're out surrendering on Obamacare...
1 posted on 01/18/2014 12:11:06 PM PST by Qbert
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Just expecting president Robbing Hood to steal from the people and give it to them.


2 posted on 01/18/2014 12:14:49 PM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Rabbi Eisenberg says, “Oy! The holocaust! Who knows if it’s bad? Maybe a little flawed. So fix it already!”


3 posted on 01/18/2014 12:15:00 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Anti-Complacency League! Baby!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

THey have not been on a crusade regarding anything but promoting illegal amnesty.


4 posted on 01/18/2014 12:15:35 PM PST by stanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Obamacare has only one flaw: it exists.


5 posted on 01/18/2014 12:15:37 PM PST by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
Wonder what pressure was [put on him by the O’ mob.
6 posted on 01/18/2014 12:16:08 PM PST by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy

they were fighting against O care. That was a surprise. They were tacitedly pushing for it, the bums.


7 posted on 01/18/2014 12:16:25 PM PST by Mouton (The insurrection laws perpetuate what we have for a government now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Well since it’s worked so well thus far, why not cheer it on, right?


8 posted on 01/18/2014 12:18:22 PM PST by nascarnation (I'm hiring Jack Palladino to investigate Baraq's golf scores.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

OK, correct its flaws. 99% of it is flaws :-)


9 posted on 01/18/2014 12:22:42 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar for you if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy

Maybe if it put the Nazis into the concentration camps instead?

Seriously. I’m saddened but not too surprised at this pussyfooting. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evils.


10 posted on 01/18/2014 12:23:49 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar for you if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: nascarnation

I swear, the Chamber of “Commerce” has now moved further to the left and is more anti-free market than a lot of Democrats...


11 posted on 01/18/2014 12:24:36 PM PST by Qbert ("The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry" - William F. Buckley, Jr.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
Bribed? Intimidated? Or both?



America demands Justice for the Fallen of Benghazi!

O stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that we lie here, obedient to their command.

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

12 posted on 01/18/2014 12:25:30 PM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Mlichael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mouton

They now join the ranks with AARP in the battle to repeal.


13 posted on 01/18/2014 12:26:55 PM PST by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Rats seeking for any port in a storm.

Of course “business friendly” isn’t the worst touchstone, if the businesses are not so shortsighted they can’t see beyond the end of their noses.

Anyone complaining about it for any reason, is better than the status quo.


14 posted on 01/18/2014 12:27:35 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar for you if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Once again, it is for money.
It is for power over the people.
It is for a work force to be cheap and plentiful.
It it is for the few from the many.

Once people on the right and the left realize that we are being lied to and must band together and fight these azzclowns or we will Parrish as once free people.


15 posted on 01/18/2014 12:27:50 PM PST by luv2ndamend (Same party, different letter)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C210N

AARP is run by young whippersnappers. These elders are getting a raw deal.


16 posted on 01/18/2014 12:28:19 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar for you if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: luv2ndamend

And it is to hose their customer base but good!

Talk about exercises in killing the golden goose.


17 posted on 01/18/2014 12:29:03 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar for you if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Big business is betting that the Democrat tide is not reversible and is trying to purchase some level of immunity.
Look at the donors to the Podesta / Lizzie Warren far left outfit CAP, shocking:

Corporate Supporters in Alphabetical Order (2013)

Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP
The Albright Stonebridge Group
American Beverage Association
American Iron and Steel Institute
America’s Health Insurance Plans, or AHIP
Anglo American
Apple Inc.
AT&T
Bank of America
Blackstone
Blue Cross Blue Shield Association
Blue Engine Message & Media
Blue Shield of California*
BMW of North America
CareFirst BlueCross BlueShield
Citigroup
The Coca-Cola Company
Comcast NBCUniversal
Covanta Energy
CVS Caremark Inc.
Daimler
DeVry Education Group
Dewey Square Group
Discovery
DISH Network
Downey McGrath Group, Inc.
DRS Technologies
Eli Lilly and Company
Facebook
Federal Home Loan Bank of Dallas
GE
Genworth Financial
The Glover Park Group LLC
Goldman Sachs
Google*
Health Care Service Corporation
The Ickes and Enright Group
Japan Bank for International Cooperation
Kohlberg Kravis Roberts
McLarty Associates
Microsoft Corporation
Monitor Deloitte
Motion Picture Association of America, or MPAA*
MyWireless.Org
Northrop Grumman
Pearson
PepsiCo
PG&E Corporation
Quest Diagnostics
Samsung Electronics America
Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States, or TECRO
Tata Group of Companies
Time Warner Inc.
T-Mobile
Toyota Motor North America
Visa Inc.
Walmart
Wells Fargo


18 posted on 01/18/2014 12:29:15 PM PST by nascarnation (I'm hiring Jack Palladino to investigate Baraq's golf scores.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

>> Acknowledging that outright repeal of the employer mandate — already delayed until January 2015 -

Delayed? Congress modified the law?

More like weak-minded people capitulated to Obama’s exhortations to violate law.

The Executive does not have the power to modify law.


19 posted on 01/18/2014 12:29:55 PM PST by Ray76
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert; All

Chamber of Commerce SUPPORTS OBAMACARE

Take money from them...you also support ObamaCare


20 posted on 01/18/2014 12:31:17 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Amnesty And Not Ending ObamaCare Will Kill GOP In 2014)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

I guess Nancy Pelosi,Debbie Blabbermouth Schultz were right,the Democrats will run on Obamacare in the 2014 elections,the freakin worthless republicans are caving already


21 posted on 01/18/2014 12:32:21 PM PST by ballplayer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

If the Chamber of Commerce ever ceases to exist the demand for vaseline will collapse. :-)


22 posted on 01/18/2014 12:32:37 PM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

GOPe on a suicide run this year

There may not be a Republican Party to field a candidate in 2016


23 posted on 01/18/2014 12:33:14 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SandRat

No Pressure

The Chamber of Commerce agrees with Obama on Illegal Alien Amnesty, Open Borders, and Free Trade. They agree with each other on a lot of things


24 posted on 01/18/2014 12:33:36 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Amnesty And Not Ending ObamaCare Will Kill GOP In 2014)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Mouton
Of course they're pushing for Obamacare. Insurance agents in the Chamber of Commerce will profit from it. Businesses will use it to avoid giving health insurance to employees. It'll increase business for pharmacies and medical supply companies. Plus, they probably got a deal to get all the invader labor they want if they stopped pretending to be against Obamacare.

Are there any organizations anymore that actually represent US citizens?

25 posted on 01/18/2014 12:33:47 PM PST by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

It would be embarrassing if the R’s finished 3rd after the write-ins for Putin, LOL.


26 posted on 01/18/2014 12:35:31 PM PST by nascarnation (I'm hiring Jack Palladino to investigate Baraq's golf scores.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck

"OK, correct its flaws. 99% of it is flaws :-)"

The fact that they believe you can somehow "fix" a socialist nightmare like Obamacare tells everything you need to know about them.

27 posted on 01/18/2014 12:35:44 PM PST by Qbert ("The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry" - William F. Buckley, Jr.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Considering that the ACA could allow the Chamber to unload the cost of employees’ health care onto the tax payers, how could they lose?


28 posted on 01/18/2014 12:43:21 PM PST by griswold3 (Post-Christian America is living on borrowed moral heritage)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Watch the Chamber cave on the minimum wage next.

Failures.


29 posted on 01/18/2014 12:51:35 PM PST by SoFloFreeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
I'm sure every major U.S. corporation has already figured out how to exploit the loopholes in ObamaCare. If anything, they are likely to pressure Congress to make ObamaCare even more onerous by forcing it on smaller and smaller employers that are a competitive threat to the corporate/government establishment in this country.
30 posted on 01/18/2014 12:52:45 PM PST by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SandRat
Wonder what pressure was [put on him by the O’mob].

The O'mob are just a bunch of Chicago street thugs with Obama as the head thug. The Capo di tutti capi, the one calling the shots even over Val Jal herself is the white haired little man who got his start in life confiscating and selling property that belonged to his fellow Jews in Nazi occupied Hungary.

31 posted on 01/18/2014 12:55:21 PM PST by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: GeronL
"GOPe on a suicide run this year There may not be a Republican Party to field a candidate in 2016"

Exactly.

Polls show a large percentage of Americans still view themselves as "Conservative"... meanwhile the "Republican" label itself is near record-lows. And yet the GOP-e caters almost exclusively to the very people who cause them to lose one important race after another.

32 posted on 01/18/2014 1:05:48 PM PST by Qbert ("The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry" - William F. Buckley, Jr.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: COBOL2Java
The Capo di tutti capi needs to have a contract of extreme prejudice put one him.
33 posted on 01/18/2014 1:05:50 PM PST by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
Some RINO columnist (Jennifer Rubin?) was going off on the right because we were making the claim that the GOP was going soft on getting rid of Obamacare. It looks like Ms. Rubin, if it was her, needs to get up to speed on this story.
34 posted on 01/18/2014 1:14:24 PM PST by Major Matt Mason ("Journalism is dead. All news is suspect." - Noamie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Whores. Republican rino whores. What else is new?


35 posted on 01/18/2014 1:30:09 PM PST by OKSooner ("As the riders went on by him, he heard one call his name...")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: grania

Correct. This is the big one from their perspective:

“Businesses will use it to avoid giving health insurance to employees.”

BTW, the have Bonehead’s ear on all issues so look for Bonehead to do nothing about O care except to come up with some changes to make it work. When this place finally collapses there will not be enough lamp posts to hang all the traitors.


36 posted on 01/18/2014 1:49:40 PM PST by Mouton (The insurrection laws perpetuate what we have for a government now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

The are moving to the left to get the Bill Gates, George Soros money. $50 million to sink the Tea Party who is against amnesty and Obamacare.

Gates and all these other Americans Employees last people want cheap labor, and a national healthcare system so that they can end Employer paid healthcare and dump all their employees off their company plans to save money.

The wages of American is now thousands of dollars less than when Obama came into office.

Gates wants Indian and other Asian programmers, the Chamber has changed a lot since superstores have put a lot of their mainstreet merchants out of business.

The Chamber of Commerce is now globalist and is hoping to get cheap labor without the inconvenience of immigration rules.


37 posted on 01/18/2014 1:56:44 PM PST by Zenjitsuman (New Boss Nancy Pelosi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Need some vehicle to give free healthcare to all the Illegals on the citizenship (Democrat registration) track.


38 posted on 01/18/2014 2:09:39 PM PST by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Zenjitsuman

Time to turn the Tea Party into a conservative party, if we are not going to get the policies we want from the GOPe than I personally don’t care if they ever win office.

Gates is a Democrat, you would be surprised how many on Wall Street, being a creature of New York are libs, I know I worked their for 10 years.

Buffet, Soros, and lots of other lefties run outfits like GS
and other big banks and brokerages.

Remember how well connected the Dems were in Fanny and Freddy and the FED.

I always felt labeling the GOP as the party of wall street was BS since when I worked there they were all voting for Cuomo.

Bloomberg is another Rino who used the GOP line to be voted into office.

Labels are meaningless, how they vote and who is funding their campaign is how we determine where they stand.

We need a Conservative party so it can start fresh when the country is bankrupt and is seeking a conservative way out of the financial sewer.


39 posted on 01/18/2014 2:11:37 PM PST by Zenjitsuman (New Boss Nancy Pelosi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
All each election cycle is about is which bunch of degenerate crooks, cowards, con men, and liars gets to control and redistribute the money extorted by the IRS from us chumps outside the beltway, and how much of it.

It's plain to see what is going on in DC to anyone who has ever spent any time there, the place is perpetually flush with cash, with hundreds of thousand of Federal Apparatchiks with huge smiles on their faces walking around drawing huge salaries, plus bonuses and pensions courtesy of us dolts in the hinterland.

What has the GOP ever done when they controlled the WH and Congress that materially changed anything, or made the Federal Bureaucracy smaller?

We still have the agencies like IRS, the Department of Energy, and Education, and EPA, and to boot, they established new ones like DHS and TSA.

Anyone who tries to starve the beast is politically assassinated by propagandists from the left and right, like Gingrich was over the Government shutdown at the end of his career in Congress and again when he tried for the nomination.

There will be nothing coming out of DC other than a bigger hand in your pocket and more limits on your freedom.

The DC problem will not be solved politically.

The FOUNDERS had no intention of establishing Universal Suffrage and DELIBERATELY did not put a right to vote in the Constitution because they knew it would lead to the collapse before us today, and make no mistake about it, when the Social Security checks stop coming, there will be a collapse.

Universal Suffrage has been enacted via Constitutional Amendments, hell, the communists are even giving illegal aliens the vote by Executive Order.

Collapse and reset are the only way out of this now, and rotating the Capital amongst the States.

There is no greater threat to the freedom and prosperity of the American Citizenry than the Federal Apparatus in Washington DC, and anyone who thinks all we have to do to change things is send the "right" people there hasn't looked at the situation from a logical perspective at best, or at worst, is self delusional

.

40 posted on 01/18/2014 2:15:55 PM PST by Rome2000 (THE WASHINGTONIANS AND UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE ARE THE ENEMY -ROTATE THE CAPITAL AMONGST THE STATES)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rome2000
What has the GOP ever done when they controlled the WH and Congress that materially changed anything, or made the Federal Bureaucracy smaller?

The purpose of the Republican Party at the national level is to distribute money and favors to its prized constituencies, just as it is the purpose of the Democratic Party to do the same for its own prized constituencies.

41 posted on 01/18/2014 2:21:30 PM PST by Publius ("Who is John Galt?" by Billthedrill and Publius now available at Amazon.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: griswold3
Considering that the ACA could allow the Chamber to unload the cost of employees’ health care onto the tax payers, how could they lose?

I believe crony capitalist businesses have been quietly supporting ACA for a long time.

42 posted on 01/18/2014 2:40:18 PM PST by Menehune56 ("Let them hate so long as they fear" (Oderint Dum Metuant), Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Under socialism, the “conservative” candidate for office will try to appeal to voters by assuring them that he reduce the cost of government by runing the socialist programs more efficiently than the socialists ever did.

Think this is satire? Think about all the support that public education gets from Republicans.

The answer to socialism is to replace it with a free market. The last thing a free people need is efficient socialist programs.


43 posted on 01/18/2014 2:40:19 PM PST by theBuckwheat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
In a striking about face, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce will no longer seek the repeal of the Affordable Care Act

Color me SO surprised.

We are in Fascism, which should more accurately be called Corporatism.

It is when government teams with business to plunder the country.

44 posted on 01/18/2014 2:42:24 PM PST by Lazamataz (Early 2009 to 7/21/2013 - RIP my little girl Cathy. You were the best cat ever. You will be missed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

I’ve had it with the US Chamber of Commies. They are a far greater enemy of America than the Islamo-fascists could ever hope to be.


45 posted on 01/18/2014 3:11:10 PM PST by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert
In a striking about face, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce will no longer seek the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, working instead to correct what it sees as its flaws.

Mark Steyn strikes again. Some time back he wrote that Republicans were like their European Conservative counterparts - they never repealed a Sooialist law, just claimed they could make it work better.

46 posted on 01/18/2014 4:22:35 PM PST by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Qbert

Only way to fix its flaws is to gut it, root and branch.


47 posted on 01/18/2014 4:34:37 PM PST by Oldeconomybuyer (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C210N

Forgive me, but didn’t Mooschelle just join the AARP? Does that mean that I will now be pursued, fined and possibly jailed because I dumped The AARP years ago? Should I worry?

As for the Chamber of Strange Commerce, those guys have totally jumped the commie shark and are bent upon forcing the spineless Pubbies to pass an amnesty law. If they do, I’ll never vote for any one of them ever again! They propose to allow the illegals to permanently invade and become RATS for free food, housing, health care and transporation. We are lead by horrendous people with no guts, no brains and no conscience. The gummint is now advertising Food Stamps in Mexico just to stimulate more wetbacks than ever before. Are we toast yet?


48 posted on 01/18/2014 4:35:08 PM PST by Paulus Invictus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...
...three years ago this month... Tom Donahue, labeled the ACA “unworkable” and called for its repeal. During last week’s address he softened his views, calling instead for business-friendly adjustments to the new law.
Don't like the bastard, but the CoC could scarcely do anything else. It still commits to working against it however it can. Thanks Qbert.
49 posted on 01/18/2014 6:43:28 PM PST by SunkenCiv (;http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Qbert

bkmk


50 posted on 01/18/2014 9:30:16 PM PST by AllAmericanGirl44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson