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Gun debate: Is price of an armed America a more dangerous America? (+video)
csmonitor ^ | 2 February, 2014 | Patrik Jonsson

Posted on 02/03/2014 3:17:40 PM PST by marktwain

Charles Ingram and Robert Webster were neighbors in Florida, but friends said the two older men had little love for each other and often quarreled. On a spring day in 2010, the two men, both gun enthusiasts who had state permits to carry concealed weapons, got into another argument across their lawns.

This time, police later said, both men pulled out their weapons. When Mr. Webster began approaching, Mr. Ingram raised his gun, as did Webster. Two shots rang out simultaneously, and both men fell. Webster died almost instantly, Ingram less than a month later.

That "Deadwood"-style neighborhood gunfight is one of 555 examples compiled by advocates of gun control detailing how the mere presence of legal guns can turn mundane moments into tragedies – sobering rebuttals against the estimated tens of thousands of times a year Americans brandish guns in self-defense to thwart crimes in progress.

RECOMMENDED: How much do you know about the Second Amendment? A quiz.

In a country that witnesses bloody gun violence of all kinds on a daily basis, Ingram and Webster were part of a growing cohort, a sort of standing militia of what concealed-carry advocates say are between 8 million and 11 million citizens carrying concealed guns in public in the name of protecting themselves and those around them.

Less than two decades ago, fewer than a million Americans carried concealed weapons, and they were mostly ex-police, ex-military, or owners of cash businesses.

(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist; bias; csmonitor; guncontrol
The bias fairly drips from this article. Not on case of defensive use of firearms cited. Only the discredited totals from the Nation Crime Victimization Survey (the major outlier in defensive gun use surveys), and the title all show a bias that amounts to advocacy. To the author's credit, they did include soms facts contrary to their worldview, but leaving out the fact that while the number of concealed carry permits has increased over 10X in the last 20 years, while the homicide rate has fallen by half, is inexcusable.

I could not find any way to comment on the article. This is often indicative of a source that cannot bear scrutiny. Perhaps I missed it. Please let us know if you find a way to comment.

1 posted on 02/03/2014 3:17:41 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Dangerous for Whom?


2 posted on 02/03/2014 3:23:54 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: marktwain
It has been overwhelmingly proven that an armed society is a polite society.
3 posted on 02/03/2014 3:25:26 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: marktwain

I have owned and legally carried numerous weapons for almost 40 years. Many of my friends have done also. None of us have shot one another nor anyone else. well at least not outside of combat.
Violent people will kill others even of every gun suddenly disappeared from the earth.


4 posted on 02/03/2014 3:31:02 PM PST by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I go to sign up for the American Revolution 2014 and the Crusades 2014?)
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To: marktwain

This happened in 2010? This is the best case liberals have for propping up their insane beliefs? Yes, four years ago 2 men who legally could ‘carry’ in Florida acted stupidly.

Do you have any idea how many deaths by criminals have taken place in Florida in the last four years? Or just deaths by gangs...

If these two idiots are the best they’ve got it’s reason to support honest citizens owning guns..


5 posted on 02/03/2014 3:31:22 PM PST by GOPJ (The Nation's divided between those who are to be fooled and those who do the fooling.Greenfield)
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To: marktwain

Do the measure the number of career criminals and walking time bombs who are not around to hurt others in society because they were shot by other criminals or law abiding people?


6 posted on 02/03/2014 3:32:22 PM PST by ObamahatesPACoal
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To: marktwain

Guns have nothing to do with it.
Morality has degraded to an incredible degree.

When society purged any value for life, we become susceptible to this horrible outcome.

Teenage gangstas in the hood think no more about shooting a human than they do stomping on a bug.


7 posted on 02/03/2014 3:36:41 PM PST by nascarnation (I'm hiring Jack Palladino to investigate Baraq's golf scores.)
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To: fwdude

Sometimes 2 irascible old farts can be hell bent on shooting each other. If it were not guns it would be bombs. Best let them waste each other.
Note those aghast at the specter of octogenarian gunslingers are perfectly willing to terminate geriatric suffering by withholding life saving medical care.


8 posted on 02/03/2014 3:39:39 PM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: marktwain

An armed America is only a dangerous America for her Enemies and those that would do her harm.


9 posted on 02/03/2014 3:41:41 PM PST by Howie66 (Molon Labe, Traitors!)
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To: YHAOS

Hey, you can’t very well Steal “From each according to his abilities” without having a monopoly on the use of force can you?


10 posted on 02/03/2014 3:43:31 PM PST by Voice of Reason88 ( Freedom is never lost all at once - Edmund Burke)
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To: marktwain
How do the gun grabbers reconcile data like this:

DOJ Report: Firearm-Related Murders Down 39% Since 1993
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3118750/posts

A DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) “special report” shows that “firearm-related” homicides fell by 39 percent between 1993 and 2011.

11 posted on 02/03/2014 3:46:06 PM PST by Voice of Reason88 ( Freedom is never lost all at once - Edmund Burke)
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To: marktwain

One man went nuts, the other man died defending himself.
Life is unfair.


12 posted on 02/03/2014 3:46:43 PM PST by MrBambaLaMamba (Obama - "I will stand with the Muslims")
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To: nascarnation

Yep. That’s it in a nutshell.


13 posted on 02/03/2014 3:51:45 PM PST by Jagdgewehr (It will take blood.)
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To: marktwain
DOJ Report: Firearm-Related Murders Down 39% Since 1993

And this during the period when people were buying guns at an unprecedented rate.

More guns = less violent crime

14 posted on 02/03/2014 3:56:09 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (The only way women can "have it all" is if men aren't allowed to have anything.)
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To: YHAOS

An armed society is a polite society. For starters, when you know a guy has a gun, you don’t throw popcorn in his face. It may save your life.


15 posted on 02/03/2014 3:59:31 PM PST by cuban leaf
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To: GOPJ
This happened in 2010? This is the best case liberals have for propping up their insane beliefs? Yes, four years ago 2 men who legally could ‘carry’ in Florida acted stupidly.

My thoughts exactly. They also said they have 555 similar cases? I'd like to see them. Did they include the OK Coral?

16 posted on 02/03/2014 4:06:05 PM PST by Tenacious 1 (My whimsical litany of satyric prose and avarice pontification of wisdom demonstrates my concinnity.)
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To: Howie66

A disarmed America is a danger to everyone not a
criminal or the government, just like the Soviet Union.


17 posted on 02/03/2014 4:10:04 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68

You make a very good point, brother.

Welcome home.


18 posted on 02/03/2014 4:14:32 PM PST by Howie66 (Molon Labe, Traitors!)
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To: cuban leaf

Uh I don’t think we are talkig about throwing popcorn here. First of all when you conceal carry you are supposed to be able to control yourself so you don’t draw your weapon unless you fear for your life. Getting some popcorn thrown on you followed up by nothing else is just not just cause.


19 posted on 02/03/2014 4:16:08 PM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Howie66

Thanks. Remember the Soviet government felt that
intellectuals and the middle class, were more of a
threat than the criminal element. The criminal element
was generally considered to be politically reliable.


20 posted on 02/03/2014 4:20:05 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68

Correct!


21 posted on 02/03/2014 4:22:46 PM PST by Howie66 (Molon Labe, Traitors!)
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To: marktwain

No.


22 posted on 02/03/2014 4:27:45 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral)
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To: MrBambaLaMamba; All

Police three times as likely to commit murder as concealed carry permit holders.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/10/concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-one.html


23 posted on 02/03/2014 5:30:51 PM PST by marktwain (The old media must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: nascarnation

consider the rise to hundreds of millions of guns in america yet gun deaths are stable to slightly falling since the 90s. more people own guns now more than ever andhave more than ever, yet gun deaths drop or stay thesame.

seems we are safer rather than less safe.


24 posted on 02/03/2014 5:32:30 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2; cuban leaf

We are, in fact, talking about throwing popcorn.

The good news is that the impolite guy died doing what he loved, pissing off other people.

Seriously, how many people who passed on can really have that said about them?


25 posted on 02/03/2014 6:15:43 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (Over production, one of the top 5 worries for the American Farmer every year.)
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To: marktwain

Robert A. Heinlein, deceased science fiction author extraordinaire, and medically discharged from the U.S. Navy, during WW2 wrote that line about an armed society is a polite society.

The quick polite and accurate answer is: ‘No.’


26 posted on 02/03/2014 6:20:15 PM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: Balding_Eagle

I see what your saying. At least these two figured out a way to work out their differences. They haven’t had another argument in the last 4 years...


27 posted on 02/03/2014 6:30:14 PM PST by Max_850
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To: Tenacious 1
Did they include the OK Coral?

If they've only got one good case in the last four years... it's possible the 554th goes back to the OK Coral - maybe the 555th is back in the American Revolution...

28 posted on 02/03/2014 7:22:48 PM PST by GOPJ (The Nation's divided between those who are to be fooled and those who do the fooling.Greenfield)
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To: marktwain

Judging by actual crime statistics, and not anecdotes, the answer is no, an armed America is not a more dangerous America. In fact, and by fact I mean not anecdote, it is far safer than it otherwise would be.

Next question?


29 posted on 02/03/2014 11:26:24 PM PST by Redcloak (Winter is coming.)
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To: Balding_Eagle

No what we are talking about here is 2nd degree murder. That 70 year old ex cop nutjob is going to die in prison. You don’t have the right to kill somebody for throwing popcorn at you.


30 posted on 02/04/2014 6:07:47 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

Yeah. I get that. I’m not saying a popcorn thrower deserves to be shot. I’m talking about a completely different issue.

To wit: If you live in a culture where there is an assumption that a lot of people in a movie theater are carrying or concealed carrying, you don’t start stuff. This is why an armed society is a polite society. It’s sort of a “personal” version of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction).

This is why I am confident Trayvon Martin is the one that started the altercation with Zimmerman. If you are unarmed and assume the other guy is, you may start a fist fight. If you are armed, you don’t start fist fights except in hollywood westerns.

I’m addressing a deep psychological issue with my remark regarding conflict and conflict resolution.


31 posted on 02/04/2014 6:17:04 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: Balding_Eagle

The good news is that the impolite guy died doing what he loved, pissing off other people.


I wouldn’t go quite that far. I summed up my position just above this one.

Thing is, if he was of a mindset that the guy he was throwing the popcorn on was armed, he wouldn’t have thrown it.

Again, an armed society is a polite society.

I get that from Louis L’amoure, the western fiction writer who was also an expert on the old west. He was big on guns bringing peace. He said a holstered gun was more dangerous than a drawn gun in a real way. And you don’t throw popcorn on a man if you think he may be armed. i.e. the gun actually makes the situation more civil, just as nuclear weapons and their presence in their holsters actually brought decades of peace to the civilized world.


32 posted on 02/04/2014 6:20:50 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: Voice of Reason88; cuban leaf; logi_cal869

You’ve captured the spirit of the thing. LOL!


33 posted on 02/04/2014 3:03:16 PM PST by YHAOS
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