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Ukraine stands on the brink and Europe must bring it back
The Guardian ^ | Sunday 2 February 2014 20.00 GMT | Timothy Garton Ash

Posted on 02/04/2014 2:16:17 AM PST by cunning_fish

This is no velvet revolution, but nor is it an uprising of fascist Cossacks or a zero-sum game with Russia. Europe must intervene on the side of democracy and human rights

Ukraine has not yet died – as the country's anthem observes. But the face of Ukraine today is that of the bloodied, scarred opposition activist Dmytro Bulatov. Comparisons with Bosnia are still far-fetched, but think of this as a political Chernobyl.

I have no idea what will happen in Ukraine tomorrow, let alone next week. But I know what all Europeans should want to happen over the next year and the next decades. In February 2015, on the 70th anniversary of the Yalta agreement, Ukraine should again be a halfway functioning state. A corrupt and rackety one, but still the kind of state that, in the long run, forges a nation. It should have signed an association agreement with the EU, but also have close ties with Russia. In February 2045, on the 100th anniversary of the Yalta agreement, it should be a liberal democratic, rule-of-law state that is a member of the EU, but has a special relationship with a democratic Russia. "Pie in the sky!" you may say. But if you don't know where you want to go, all roads are equally good. This is where we should want to go.

(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: kerry; mccaine; neocon; russia; ukraine

1 posted on 02/04/2014 2:16:17 AM PST by cunning_fish
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To: cunning_fish

Why should we help the European Union? They are a corrupt sewer of Islamophilic socialists.


2 posted on 02/04/2014 2:24:33 AM PST by ZULU (Magua is sitting in the Oval Office. Ted Cruz/Phil Robertson in 2016.)
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To: cunning_fish
Europe must intervene on the side of democracy and human rights

Obviously the author advocates supporting Yanukovich (as he is the lawfully elected President of Ukraine) and for jailing all the protesters (because they are doing undemocratic things and violate human rights of pretty much anyone.)

Or perhaps the author means that an armed mob is a source of democracy and human rights? Then he should go to Northern Ireland and shout there, from the rooftops, about his support for united Ireland. I'm sure he could find a gun there and march against the Limey. Go get them! Or he can go to sunny Spain and tell Spaniards that they are so wrong about oppressing those nice guys from Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (also known as ETA.) If he does that, perhaps his fate would be a good lesson to others.

World is full of conflicts. However it is usually wrong to use force to resolve them. Force is not out of the question, but it is reserved for situations of life or death, when nothing else can possibly work. This is not the case in Ukraine. Ukraine has a fairly elected President; a functioning Parliament; and the police that is *still* reluctant to shoot at the protesters, even though they take incoming fire themselves. I can understand that there are many in Ukraine that are unhappy about the laws that the elected President and Parliament are promoting. But... they lost the elections. Democracy requires them to accept the loss, and next time try to do better. Nowhere in democratic rule books it says that if you lose the elections you are entitled to organize riots and fight the police until your demands are met. There is only one book that approves this method. It's called Mein Kampf.

3 posted on 02/04/2014 2:50:59 AM PST by Greysard
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To: cunning_fish

Cossacks, Bosnia, Chernobyl! It’s like this guy just wants to see how many analogies he can make in one paragraph.


4 posted on 02/04/2014 3:10:06 AM PST by jocon307
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To: ZULU

You’d be surprised how many on FR want to help the Islamophilic Socialists of the EU take over Ukraine...scary

At least the EU support toned down when it was discovered John McCain has been lobbying for the Pro EU folks for his friend George Soros

And, how much does the US bail out Ukraine if EU takes over? US is already helping bail out Greece and Spain via World Bank and IMF


5 posted on 02/04/2014 3:21:23 AM PST by SeminoleCounty (A Theory is not a Fact....It is not called the "Fact of Evolution")
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To: SeminoleCounty

And to think that I was always under the impression that the Left always wanted countries to have self-determination. Well, that’s what Wilson said the aims of the 1919 Paris conference were all about. And then he blew off the Koreans who wanted to be free of the Japanese (because Japan had, in the late stages of the war, invaded some German-owwned islands in the Pacific that we had to throw them out of in WWII), and everyone in the Middle East (because Great Britain and France saw that as too big a prize to not grab), not to mention all of the African countries that wanted freedom from their European colonial masters.....


6 posted on 02/04/2014 3:30:48 AM PST by Pecos (The Chicago Way: Kill the Constitution, one step at a time.)
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To: cunning_fish

In those places, you never know why there is a revolt. It is like calling wolf all the time. It could be real, or just another handout boondoggle. Thye are not interested in military or resistance solutions favoring the US. They only want money fund raising, just like the exploited kids in Lahore who are maimed to attract tourist charity.


7 posted on 02/04/2014 4:36:15 AM PST by lavaroise (A well regulated gun being necessary to the state, the rights of the militia shall not be infringed)
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To: cunning_fish

Yeah, sure. The EU is going to send troops into the Ukraine to “help”. Not gonna happen.

Methinks this is just an orchestrated power play between Putin and the EU. My $$ is on Putin.


8 posted on 02/04/2014 4:38:38 AM PST by rbg81
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To: cunning_fish
Vlad Putin's tanks are at the ready.Just ask the people of Georgia...they'll tell ya!
9 posted on 02/04/2014 4:57:27 AM PST by Gay State Conservative (Osama Obama Care: A Religion That Will Have You On Your Knees!)
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To: Greysard
If forced to choose I'll choose the EU over the USSR *every single time*...despite the EU’s obvious,and enormous,flaws.A country like Ukraine basically has no choice but to align herself with a greater power...so think of it from your personal standpoint.Your only options are to live in Germany of Russia.I choose Germany...fell free to choose Russia if you're looking for a life full of “interesting challenges”.
10 posted on 02/04/2014 5:02:43 AM PST by Gay State Conservative (Osama Obama Care: A Religion That Will Have You On Your Knees!)
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To: Greysard

I doubt he supports Scottish independence. If the UK lost all those Labour voters, they’d never have lefties in power again... oh wait, they’d still have the Conservative party. Never mind.


11 posted on 02/04/2014 5:30:05 AM PST by Viennacon
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To: cunning_fish

The Russian Revolution of 1917 was corrupted and taken over by the Bolsheviks

It is now underway again and the people are once again attempting to wrest away control of the government


12 posted on 02/04/2014 5:34:46 AM PST by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: cunning_fish

The Russian Revolution of 1917 was corrupted and taken over by the Bolsheviks

It is now underway again and the people are once again attempting to wrest away control of the government


13 posted on 02/04/2014 5:36:48 AM PST by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: cunning_fish

Who’s going to step up to save the US when this administration sends it over the edge?


14 posted on 02/04/2014 6:15:13 AM PST by bgill
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To: cunning_fish

The EU intervene?? Bahwahaha. What will it do besides unleash the 5th column?
As to another poster, I would choose Russia by a mile over the eussr.


15 posted on 02/04/2014 6:48:45 AM PST by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Putin used armor (and air and arty and infantry) AFTER the Georgians started shelling Tskhinvali with 152mm SpGH Danas, BM-21 Grad rockets and LAR-160s. Russian peacekeepers were already all over. Russia gained air superiority quickly and the Georgians never shut down the Roki Tunnel. The inexperienced Georgians very foolishly forced Putin’s hand.

Putin’s argument for South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence was identical to that of the US and EU in Kosovo. Putin demanded they apply the identical standards elsewhere.

The situation in Ukraine is completely different.


16 posted on 02/04/2014 7:16:00 AM PST by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: SeminoleCounty

I actually prefer Putin to the leaders of western Europe.


17 posted on 02/04/2014 9:37:10 AM PST by ZULU (Magua is sitting in the Oval Office. Ted Cruz/Phil Robertson in 2016.)
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To: lavaroise

Protesters ask US to deny visas and implement economic sanctions against government officials involved in beatings, kidnapings, murders etc.


18 posted on 02/04/2014 11:03:54 AM PST by Ivan Mazepa
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To: Gay State Conservative

I probably should have put a /sarc.


19 posted on 02/04/2014 11:12:32 AM PST by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: ZULU

Ukraine already has close trading ties with Russia. The result is an economic disaster. Trading with the larger EU offers hope for a better life.


20 posted on 02/04/2014 1:08:36 PM PST by tlozo
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