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Patrick Buchanan: Will Mobocracy Triumph In Ukraine? OpEd
Albany Tribune ^ | Feb. 4, 2014 | Pat Buchanan

Posted on 02/05/2014 4:31:44 AM PST by Colonel Kangaroo

Despite our endless blather about democracy, we Americans seem to be able to put our devotion to democratic principles on the shelf, when they get in the way of our New World Order.

In 2012, in the presidential election in Egypt, Mohammed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood won in a landslide. President Obama hailed the outcome.

One year later, the Egyptian army ousted and arrested Morsi and gunned down a thousand members of his brotherhood. The coup was countenanced by John Kerry who explained that the Egyptian army was “restoring democracy.”

Comes now the turn of Ukraine.

In 2010, Viktor Yanukovych, in what neutral observers called a free and fair election, was chosen president. His term ends in 2015.

Yet since November, protesters have occupied Maidan Square in Kiev, battling police, and howling for Yanukovych’s resignation. The United States appears now to be collaborating with Europe in bringing about the neutering or overthrow of that democratically elected government.

Military coups, a la Cairo, and mob uprisings, at la Kiev — are these now legitimate weapons in the arsenal of democracy.

What did Yanukovych do to deserve ouster by the street? He chose Russia over Europe.

In the competition between Vladimir Putin and the European Union over whose economic association to join, Yanukovych was betrothed to the EU. But after an offer of $15 billion from Putin, and a cut in fuel prices to his country, Yanukovych jilted the EU and ran off with Russia.

Yanukovych felt he could not turn down Putin’s offer.

Western Ukraine, which favors the EU, was enraged. So out came the protesters to bring down the president. And into Kiev flew John McCain to declare our solidarity with the demonstrators.

Kerry has now joined McCain in meddling in this matter that is none of America’s business, declaring in Munich that, “Nowhere is the fight for a democratic European future more important than today in Ukraine.”

We “stand with the people of Ukraine,” said Kerry.

But which people? The Ukrainians who elected Yanukovych and still support him or the crowds in Maidan Square that want him out and will not vacate their fortified encampments until he goes?

Kerry is putting us on the side of mobs that want to bring down the president, force elections, and take power. Yet, Americans would never sit still should similar elements, with similar objectives, occupy our capital.

Reportedly, we are now colluding with the Europeans to cobble together an aid package, should Yanukovych surrender, cut the knot with Russia, and sign on with the EU.

But if Putin’s offer of $15 billion was a bribe, what else is this?

While he rules a divided nation, Yanukovych has hardly been a tyrant. As the crowds grew violent, he dismissed his government, offered the prime ministry to a leader of the opposition, repealed the laws lately passed to crack down on demonstrations, and took sick for four days.

But the street crowds, sensing he is breaking and smelling victory, are pressing ahead. There have now been several deaths among the protesters and police.

Putin is incensed, but inhibited by the need to keep a friendly face for the Sochi Olympics. Yet he makes a valid point.

How would Europeans have reacted if, in the bailout crisis, he, Putin, had flown to Athens and goaded rioters demanding that Greece default and pull out of the eurozone?

How would the EU react if Putin were to hail the United Kingdom Independence Party, which wants out of the EU, or the Scottish National Party, which wants to secede from Great Britain?

Ukraine was briefly independent at the end of World War I, and has been again since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Still the religious, ethnic, cultural and historic ties between Russia and Ukraine are centuries deep.

Eight million Ukrainians are ethnic Russians. In east Ukraine and the Crimea, the majority speak Russian and cherish these ties. Western Ukraine looks to Europe. Indeed, parts belonged to the Habsburg Empire.

Pushed too far and pressed too hard, Ukraine could disintegrate.

Security police who have questioned jailed rioters seem to believe we Americans are behind what is going on. And given the National Endowment for Democracy’s clandestine role in the color-coded revolutions of a decade ago in Central and Eastern Europe, that suspicion is not unwarranted.

Nor is Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov entirely wrong when he says, “a choice is being imposed” on Ukraine, and European politicians are fomenting protests and riots “by people who seize and hold government buildings, attack the police and use racist and anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans.”

If, as a result of street mobs paralyzing a capital, a democratically elected Ukrainian government falls, we could not only have an enraged and revanchist Russia on our hands, but a second Cold War.

And we will have set a precedent that could come to haunt Europe, as the rising and proliferating parties of the populist right, that wish to bring down the European Union, learn by our example.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: noneofourbusiness; patbuchanan; ukraine
Hypocrisy is the inevitable result of the endless international meddling that both the liberal and conservative wings of our bipartisan elite engage in. From John Kerry to John McCain to John Bolton, they have done more damage to long range American security than any foreign power could.
1 posted on 02/05/2014 4:31:44 AM PST by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
First an foremost, I don't care about democracy that much.

I would rather have king that respected my individual rights than 60% of the population that don't.

There is nothing mutually exclusive about democracy and tyranny. One of our underlying problems is that our media thinks democracy is a synonym for freedom.

2 posted on 02/05/2014 4:48:02 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Normally, I dismiss much of what Pat Buchanan writes because of his blind spot for anything involving "Jooze".

But when the topic is something else, he is often logical and spot on and such is the case here.

3 posted on 02/05/2014 4:51:33 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SampleMan
I would rather have king that respected my individual rights than 60% of the population that don't.

Amen, brother. Amen.

4 posted on 02/05/2014 4:52:23 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SampleMan

>>>I would rather have king that respected my individual rights than 60% of the population that don’t.<<<

Too bad. That is a kind of thinking leading to tyranny.
King is not obliged to respect your individual rights, he is a master and you are his subject. It is pure stupidity to subdue yourself to something like that, which can respect your rights or not depending on it’s own will.
No matter how flawed a democracy can be, it has a mechanism to protect freedoms of individuals.
As any other tool, democracy might be abused or used improperly but it doesn’t mean you have to reject it for that reason.


5 posted on 02/05/2014 4:54:05 AM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Syria? Not a problem. Just send in a little clandestine help to bring down the governing body which was put in power and is acting “illegitimately”. Result? Hundreds of thousands dead, region in chaos, threat of the unrest spreading far beyond the borders of Syria or even the confines of the entire Middle East.

The Ukraine? Also not a problem. Just send in a little clandestine help to bring down the governing body which was put in power and is acting “illegitimately”. Result? That is still being written, but the forecast is not so good, considering the example of Syria.

The Current Regime now squatting in the White Hut situated in Washington, one-time capital of the nation once known as “the United States of America”, has pursued perhaps the most reckless and incompetent foreign policy since the Persian Empire under Xerxes I went to war against Sparta and the remainder of the Greek city-states. Alas, in this world of high-tech warfare, they have, wittingly or otherwise, engineered perhaps on of the greatest plunges back into the depths of decivilization since the fall of Rome.

The eclipse of “democracy” is probably the least of the treasures humanity shall have lost.


6 posted on 02/05/2014 4:59:52 AM PST by alloysteel (Obamacare - Death and Taxes now available online. One-stop shopping at its best!)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Looks like the people of Ukraine may just have to fight about it(amongst themselves).


7 posted on 02/05/2014 5:04:47 AM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: cunning_fish
Too bad. That is a kind of thinking leading to tyranny. King is not obliged to respect your individual rights, he is a master and you are his subject.

Ditto for an unrestrained democracy. I think you might have stumbled into my point.

It is pure stupidity to subdue yourself to something like that, which can respect your rights or not depending on it’s own will.

Ditto for unrestrained democracy. You have definitely found the kernel.

No matter how flawed a democracy can be, it has a mechanism to protect freedoms of individuals.

Oh, you are so, so wrong. It is a mechanism for determining what the majority will do, there is nothing about it that ensures or protects freedom. At its worst, it is nothing more than the Hell's Angels showing up at your local beauty pageant and taking a binding majority vote on who is going to have sex with who. In the words of the Founders, it is not a single tyrant 10,000 miles away, but 10,000 tyrants a mile away.

As any other tool, democracy might be abused or used improperly but it doesn’t mean you have to reject it for that reason.

I didn't reject it as a tool. I rejected it as a synonym for liberty, which it clearly is not.

And yes, if I can't live in a free society that respects my individual liberty, then I would prefer to be in charge of the unfree society, because when a majority of people decide to abuse you, I reject that they have a moral imperative through percentage of numbers to do so.

8 posted on 02/05/2014 5:04:47 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Pat Buchanan is telling only half the story in declaring that "In 2010, Viktor Yanukovych, in what neutral observers called a free and fair election, was chosen president. His term ends in 2015."

After getting elected, Yanukovych: imprisoned Yulia Tymoshenko, his principal political opponent, on highly questionable grounds; abused state assets and power to campaign for the election of his allies to Parliament, which led to international criticism of the election as tainted and irregular; approved brutal police tactics and the use of thugs against peaceful and well-disciplined protesters; enacted a set of laws that effectively criminalized opposition to the government; and, in a reversal of policy, rejected a previously negotiated affiliation agreement with the European Union and made an agreement with Russia that will subordinates the Ukraine to Russia and the circle of corrupt oligarchs that support Putin and his corrupt regime.

At the least, the omission of these facts makes for a false account of what is happening in the Ukraine. Or, is it that Buchanan regards such conduct as acceptable in a democracy or at least not a basis for criticism?

9 posted on 02/05/2014 5:06:01 AM PST by Rockingham
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To: Colonel Kangaroo; Fred Nerks

What did Yanukovych do to deserve ouster by the street? He chose Russia over Europe.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What did Obama do to deserve ouster by the street? He chose socialist welfare dependency over capitalist enterprise freedom.

Word.

People everywhere so tire of tyrannical socialist bureaucrats to the point where civil disobedience is inevitable.

The natural state of human kind is freedom from tyranny.Obama and religio-fascists take notice!


10 posted on 02/05/2014 5:16:28 AM PST by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
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To: cunning_fish
To simplify.

Democracy is a great tool for people to decide on issues that have nothing to do with freedom and liberty.

When people start voting on issues of freedom and liberty, then democracy is a tool for tyranny.

Hitler overwhelmingly won a plebiscite in what was by all accounts a fair voting process. Do you think the Jews were therefore better off than they were under the Kaiser? What is the majority opinion in Muslim countries concerning individual religious liberty? Wiping out the minority is self reinforcing to a tyrannical democracy. Yes, the majority (of any particular moment) won't vote to kill itself, but the minority is totally at their mercy (or lack there of).

11 posted on 02/05/2014 5:34:46 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Vigilanteman
Yaukovich is a thug and a convicted criminal. He juiced the election and promptly had his opponent Yulia Timoshenko arrested on a trumped up corruption charge. If he drags Ukraine back into the arms of Russia all of Ukraines progress since partition will be lost.

As a moidest reminder to Mr. Buchanan, Thomas Jefferson remarked that when governments become tyrannical, the citizens are entitled to remove it.

12 posted on 02/05/2014 5:35:44 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: SampleMan

>>To simplify.

Democracy is a great tool for people to decide on issues that have nothing to do with freedom and liberty.

When people start voting on issues of freedom and liberty, then democracy is a tool for tyranny.<<

No argument here. That is why there is Constitution. Democracy requires mature minded responsible population to function.

Ignoring that fact was the major reason of neo-con nation-building blunder.


13 posted on 02/05/2014 5:39:00 AM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Jimmy Valentine

>>Yulia Timoshenko <<

..is as guilty as Yanukovich is. East European politics is a cesspit. You won’t find any decent person there.

If you have seen a “House of Cards” on Fox you should know that in their part of the world a person like Spacey’s hero won’t even make it into a City Counsil, let alone any federal office.
You have to be 100 times more thuggish to make it into national government.


14 posted on 02/05/2014 5:44:48 AM PST by cunning_fish
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To: SampleMan

+10,000 for your excellent post.


15 posted on 02/05/2014 5:47:39 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: cunning_fish

A Constitution that recognizes natural rights is a fundamental requirement.

However, I’ve come to realize that at the end of the day, the Constitution is completely voluntary for the majority in a democracy.

The majority must have good reason to believe that the consequences of not following the Constitution are so horrific that whatever they can vote themselves isn’t worth the backlash.


16 posted on 02/05/2014 5:50:56 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Buchanan gets it right here...best for US to stay out...but the Liberal Globalist mentality of our govt....and many on FR...is to intervene on behalf of the EU.


17 posted on 02/05/2014 5:59:57 AM PST by SeminoleCounty (A Theory is not a Fact....It is not called the "Fact of Evolution")
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Russia is NOT going to let Ukraine go, if the EU and Obama push it to far Russia may very well do the same thing it did with Georgia and send in the Russian Army...


18 posted on 02/05/2014 6:00:37 AM PST by apillar
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To: apillar

>>Russia is NOT going to let Ukraine go, if the EU and Obama push it to far Russia may very well do the same thing it did with Georgia and send in the Russian Army..<<

Or better invite Panama and Egypt to their customs union and tax all US cargo traffic passing via their channels.


19 posted on 02/05/2014 6:11:51 AM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Hypocrisy is the inevitable result of the endless international meddling that both the liberal and conservative wings of our bipartisan elite engage in.

The United States firmly believes that people have the right to freely chose their own future. As long as those people are in some foreign country. Try it in the United States and you'll get the General Sherman treatment.

20 posted on 02/05/2014 7:22:29 AM PST by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Leaning Right
So you've noticed that self-determination only applies to certain “self's”.

Indeed, one of the most egregious facets of multiculturalism is the simultaneous beliefs that Muslims should be allowed localized sharia, while the good people of Alabama cannot be allowed to ban infanticide.

21 posted on 02/05/2014 7:40:28 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Jimmy Valentine
YaukovichObama is a thug and an unindicted convicted criminal. He juiced the election and promptly had his opponent Yulia TimoshenkoDinesh D'souza arrested on a trumped up corruption charge. If he drags Ukraine backThe United States into the arms of RussiaGlobal Governance all of Ukraine'sAmerica's progress since partitionour Independence will be lost.

Thomas Jefferson's words apply to us as well.

22 posted on 02/05/2014 7:46:26 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SampleMan

100% Spot on!


23 posted on 02/05/2014 7:47:16 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SampleMan

IMHO, that is the one flaw...no ‘teeth’. But, I suspect, the Founders thought we’d be re-fighting for our Independence WAY before today for all the Rights and Liberty we have lost.


24 posted on 02/05/2014 7:49:00 AM PST by i_robot73 (Give me one example and I will show where gov't is the root of the problem(s).)
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To: i_robot73
IMHO, that is the one flaw...no ‘teeth’.

"A Republic, if you can keep it." - Ben Franklin

They knew the flaw, but its a flaw that cannot be fixed with written words. The only fix is for those oppressed to make the consequences so unpleasant that the majority will respect their rights.

The 2A was intended to make that feasible. Note that they were also against a standing army.

25 posted on 02/05/2014 7:57:09 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Vigilanteman
But when the topic is something else, he is often logical and spot on and such is the case here.

No he isn't. Buchanan writes:

What did Yanukovych do to deserve ouster by the street? He chose Russia over Europe.

Most of all he used the office of the president to enrich himself, his family and his cronies. He relied on a system of corruption to keep himself in power. His choosing Russia wasn't what made him deserve ouster. It was the logical result of his previous actions. He wanted to allign himself with other autocratic regimes so that he could keep his ill gotten gains.

Most of all, Ukranians were fed up with this. If it were just about a trade deal with the EU or the demands of some right wing nationalists the Maidan protests would have died down weeks ago. But Ukranians are p*ssed.

Pat Buchanan doesn't get this. And it's frightening to see how some FReepers sing Putin's praises here.
26 posted on 02/05/2014 12:36:30 PM PST by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: cunning_fish
Well I have to confess my Ukrainian friends call her BabaYaga No.1

LOL

She ad her husband went from owning a video rental store to owning a major telephone company over there.

27 posted on 02/05/2014 12:49:14 PM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Vigilanteman

So very true and well said, sir!


28 posted on 02/05/2014 12:50:37 PM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Rockingham

“At the least, the omission of these facts makes for a false account of what is happening in the Ukraine.”

Buchanan does the same with his charactarization of Morsi in Egypt. I can’t comment on Ukraine, but it looks like we have the same old coo coo Pat dashing off editorials from Crazy Town.


29 posted on 02/05/2014 2:50:45 PM PST by Owl558 (Those who remember George Santayana are doomed to repeat him)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Hypocrisy is the inevitable result of the endless international meddling that both the liberal and conservative wings of our bipartisan elite engage in. From John Kerry to John McCain to John Bolton, they have done more damage to long range American security than any foreign power could.
Foreign meddling? You mean like Russia trying to take over Ukraine.
Ukrainians were killed and ethnically cleansed by the USSR. And you and Buchanan wish to acknoledge the merit of Stalin's actions now. Have you no decency of shame?
I have a reason to hate Ukranian nationalists, you don't. My father is still alive and remembers what Ukranian nationalists did with the Nazis and then how they gleefully watched the Soviets expell Poles and Jews from Galicia in 1945. Yet, I wish the Ukranians to be free of both KGB Russia and the EU-SSR.
Buchanan, on the other hand, betrays both his nationalism and anti-communism in his only allegence these days, isolationism. He will make any promise, revise history as needed, and lie to heaven and hell to promote it. And he has in the last 16 years. There are no Islamists, communists, or nazis he will not shill for to promote his ideology. He has no shame. The question is do you, CK?
30 posted on 02/06/2014 12:19:59 AM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Vigilanteman
Where is the logic in being an anti-nationalist to suppor KGB Russian imperialism?
If Buchanan were not betraying his nationalism in homage to his diety of isolationism, he would be calling for the logical choice, PARTITION. Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian and Tatar. Much of this territory was added to Ukraine by Kruschev to Russianize Ukraine, as Stalin had condocted the Holdomor to crush Ukrainian resistance. These lands should be returned to Russia so that Ukraine may be free. Without the Russian lands, and Russian colonists, the Russian puppet will have no real constituency, since electiosn are on ethnic lines. The Russians will be part of Russia making them happy. Only those who demand Kiev be part of Russia will be annoyed. But why should we betray nationalism to appease the suicidal revanchism and irridentism of a KGB apparatchik?
31 posted on 02/06/2014 12:25:58 AM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: rmlew
Russia and the Ukraine is like the US and Mexico. The Russians don't appreciate American meddling in their backyard no more that we would appreciate Russia making Mexico a primary focus of influence.

I wish we'd worry about our Mexican border instead of what's happening in Russia's neighborhood.

32 posted on 02/06/2014 4:46:24 AM PST by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: rmlew

Excellent point. But you have the complication of Ukrainians not wanting to give up the Crimea because it would leave them landlocked. I don’t see an easy resolution to this problem through partition, any more than there would be an easy resolution to a partition of the United States between takers and makers


33 posted on 02/06/2014 6:47:10 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: rmlew

>>>These lands should be returned to Russia so that Ukraine may be free. Without the Russian lands, and Russian colonists, the Russian puppet will have no real constituency, since electiosn are on ethnic lines. The Russians will be part of Russia making them happy. Only those who demand Kiev be part of Russia will be annoyed. But why should we betray nationalism to appease the suicidal revanchism and irridentism of a KGB apparatchik?<<<

The problem is almost all the wealth in Ukraine earned in the East.
Cutting it is like cutting the rest of the “decadent” states from West Virginia to make it “thrive”.


34 posted on 02/07/2014 12:14:20 AM PST by cunning_fish
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