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Silence on Valentine’s Day: With men in the minority on most campuses, they set the mating tone
National Review ^ | 02/13/2014 | By Steven E. Rhoads

Posted on 02/13/2014 5:53:44 AM PST by SeekAndFind

Valentine’s Day in the 21st century means fewer heart-shaped candy boxes for college women than they would have received in the 20th century. Some women with steady, longstanding boyfriends may get a treat, but casual sex — the hook-up — has made dating much less common.

Under the hook-up regime, women who want a man’s attention are expected to dress provocatively and show up at a fraternity house or bar. After drinking too much, some guy will suggest they go somewhere and hook up, which can consist of anything from deep kissing to intercourse. The men are not attentive during or after the one-night stand. Less than half the women have orgasms, and the men frequently ignore the hook-up partner entirely if they should meet again on campus.

Most college women are not happy about this state of affairs. This would be clear to any observer who could sit in on my sex-differences seminar during the week when we discuss contemporary courtship or its absence. This past fall, I asked 16 female seminar participants if they personally knew — not knew of, but knew — a woman who they thought had been very seriously harmed emotionally because of hook-ups. Every hand went up.

The men, typically, have no problems with hook-ups, and many vigorously pursue them. In class they tend to be quiet on the subject, but this year one tall, handsome fellow was willing to engage. He seemed to be speaking for all men he knew when he said “hook-ups aren’t going away.” But he was genuinely surprised and concerned that so many women were angry about them.

The literature on hook-ups shows that what I have observed at the University of Virginia is typical. In the book Premarital Sex in America, Mark Regnerus and Jeremy Uecker report that having more sexual partners is associated with “poorer emotional states in women, but not in men.” The more sexual partners a woman has in her lifetime, the more likely she is to be depressed, to cry almost every day, and to report relatively low satisfaction with her life as a whole. Elsewhere I have surveyed the evolutionary and hormonal factors that lead men and women to react so differently to casual sex.

But why do women have casual sex if they don’t want to? First, in their experimental phase, they don’t know that they won’t like it. Men and women in my upper-division classes agree that first-year women participate in hook-ups much more than fourth-years do. Some of the frat boys show up at freshman orientation events to get a head start on their seductions. A few even have a cute name for their prey: “fresh meat.”

Second, sex ratios matter. Now that women outnumber men on college campuses, they must compete with each other to give men more of what they want if they expect to find male companionship. Where there are more men than women on a campus, on the other hand, it’s men who have to compete, so women can successfully make things move more slowly physically. With sex ratios in college consistently lopsided over the past decade — women earn 57 percent of bachelor’s degrees — men set the mating tone on most campuses.

But young men haven’t always acted this way. In the middle of the last century, being a leader of a group of young men led to “comfortable dating, or perhaps early marriage,” Eleanor Maccoby writes, whereas the same social position today leads to “a greater readiness to exploit sexual opportunities and display sexual prowess.” By the time they reached their twenties, men used to settle down with one woman and raise a family. They used to be willing to answer to a wife and a boss for 40 to 50 hours a week for 40 to 50 years. But men famously hate to be told what to do. Why, then, did they so frequently become reliable partners?

They did it in midcentury because it was clearer what a man’s responsibilities were, and it was important work. Men were the providers and protectors and heads of the family; now they’re told they’re half the provider, sometimes less, and half the nurturer of the children — which they recognize as a cruel joke the moment they learn that, when they comfort her, the infant doesn’t stop crying as she does for her breast feeding mother. Working women have achieved important gains from these changes in behavior and expectations, but for men, going from head of the family to maybe half the provider and less than half with children doesn’t sound like a promotion. They may be slower to get with the program.

But, just as important, men settled down earlier in the past because they could not get good-looking and intelligent women to pay attention to them unless they had “prospects.” Men had to be marriageable and ready to commit to a relationship or most women would not have sex with them. Most men in their twenties still want marriage in the distant future, but they see no reason not to partake of the bodily charms of many attractive, intelligent women in the meantime. To bed women in our age, men find that good pectoral muscles (thus time in the gym) can be as useful as good career prospects (time in the library) — though with the shortage of men on college campuses, they may not need either.

The contemporary mating culture helps explain why men these days take so long to grow up. Sexual mores matter. Today’s lead to remarkably crude men, but also, and perhaps more significantly, remarkably juvenile ones.

The real tragedy is the effect that hook-ups have on the emotional well-being of so many women. Simon Baron Cohen’s The Essential Difference shows that, more than males, females crave connection to other humans from the first months of life, expressing instincts that are essential to happy families and supportive communities.

— Steven E. Rhoads is a professor of politics at the University of Virginia and the author of Taking Sex Differences Seriously.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: college; dating; valentines
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 02/13/2014 5:53:44 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

But I thought more women were going to college these days and that men were falling behind according many articles I’ve read that were distributed by the MSM. This article isn’t matching up with what they said earlier do someone is lying...: )


2 posted on 02/13/2014 5:59:57 AM PST by jsanders2001
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To: jsanders2001

When my son was being recruited by the Univ of San Diego for football, on the campus visit, one of the selling points was there were four women to every guy on campus.


3 posted on 02/13/2014 6:01:29 AM PST by edcoil ( "All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone." - Blaise Pascal)
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To: SeekAndFind

An interesting article.

BTW - the term “meat” when applied to women is not new.

In the 1970’s I was a young AF Lt. going through a 9-month school in California. Every Thursday night the Officer’s Club was “invaded” by young, good looking women in search of weekend dates with us. Talk about a man’s fantasy world. Everyone knew what the rules were; there was no need to spend days trying to get a date; and it was totally acceptable to ignore each other the following weekend. Fun but very very empty.

Sound familiar?


4 posted on 02/13/2014 6:06:12 AM PST by Nip (BOHEICA and TANSTAAFL - both seem very appropriate today.)
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To: SeekAndFind

This is pretty much drivel on the same order of the old Gloria Steinem crap.


5 posted on 02/13/2014 6:09:54 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Ugh. Only a fool would marry such women.


6 posted on 02/13/2014 6:11:45 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: jsanders2001
But I thought more women were going to college these days and that men were falling behind according many articles I’ve read that were distributed by the MSM.

that pretty much sums up what the article says... fewer men on college campuses... so they set the "dating" tone...

7 posted on 02/13/2014 6:16:07 AM PST by latina4dubya (when i have money i buy books... if i have anything left, i buy 6-inch heels and a bottle of wine...)
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To: Nip

Ah. Memories of the Nellis Debs at Nellis AFB in LV in the 80s.
They even had a book with bios and name tags. All you needed was
A flight suit....


8 posted on 02/13/2014 6:18:31 AM PST by Kozak ("Send them back your fierce defiance! Stamp upon the cursed alliance! To arms, to arms in Dixie!)
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To: SeekAndFind
The contemporary mating culture helps explain why men these days take so long to grow up.

Grow up?

I think the writer needs to grow up.

Young men behave the way they do as a logical response to women's liberation.

I'd rather loaf and enjoy life playing video games than get married to a modern slut harpy and in a society that will always take her side over mine in the inevitable divorce.

Hell with that. Stay single guys and always use a condom so when she "accidentally" forgets to take her pills, she won't get pregnant and make the government force you to support the kid she told you she didn't plan on having.

9 posted on 02/13/2014 6:20:19 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: Nip
In the 1970’s I was a young AF Lt. going through a 9-month school in California. Every Thursday night the Officer’s Club was “invaded” by young, good looking women in search of weekend dates with us. Talk about a man’s fantasy world. Everyone knew what the rules were; there was no need to spend days trying to get a date; and it was totally acceptable to ignore each other the following weekend. Fun but very very empty. Sound familiar?

Sounds like the plot-line from "An Officer and a Gentleman".

10 posted on 02/13/2014 6:21:58 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: SeekAndFind
A heaping helping of Schadenfreude, courtesy of Feminazi nation and a failed Educationless Directorate.

My tear ducts are dry as a bone.

11 posted on 02/13/2014 6:28:07 AM PST by tomkat
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To: SeekAndFind

The marxist ideal, being put into practice on colleges.


12 posted on 02/13/2014 6:33:54 AM PST by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible traitors. Complicit in the destruction of our country.)
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To: SeekAndFind
When women are plentiful and cheap, they become less valuable.
It's not really a surprise, is it?
Solution: Keep your standards high, and look out for guys who kept their values.
Lower yourself to be popular for the moment and you will be treated as used tissue paper the next day.

This has been known for thousands of years, yet every generation tends to forget or ignore it.

13 posted on 02/13/2014 6:35:39 AM PST by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: SeekAndFind
The contemporary mating culture helps explain why men these days take so long to grow up. Sexual mores matter. Today’s lead to remarkably crude men, but also, and perhaps more significantly, remarkably juvenile ones.

The current culture defines male "maturity" as "behaving as women want men to behave", while ignoring the set of incentives and disincentives which men currently operate under.

For most of history, marriage was how a man got a steady sexual partner, who would provide him with a home and children, in exchange for support and protection. Men found it an acceptable deal.

For decades, marriage has become less and less attractive to men, especially men-with-options. Marriage is an opportunity to attach yourself to a woman who is likely to wind up ruining you financially in divorce, take away your kids, and spend her life alienating them from you.

Marriage also tended to ensure that the average man got a woman of his own. In the current "hook up" culture, you have lots of women chasing after the most desirable men. This results in the "alpha" males getting lots of sex, and the "beta" males being ignored. The alpha male has no incentive to commit, because his current woman is very replaceable.

The beta male gets little opportunity to commit, because the women are chasing the alphas -- at least until they hit their 30's and start whining about the lack of "good men willing to commit", when the alphas they were chasing lose interest and go after younger women.

14 posted on 02/13/2014 6:37:06 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: edcoil

Maybe there’s more men working to put their wives and girlfriends through college. My son is doing that for his wife...: )


15 posted on 02/13/2014 6:39:47 AM PST by jsanders2001
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To: SeekAndFind
Most college women are not happy about this state of affairs.

Boo freakin' hoo. You can thank Hillary Clinton, Gloria Steinem, and NOW for your current state of affairs. Men have become marginalized over the past 40 years.

These women can't handle the truth, i.e. you can't have it all.

16 posted on 02/13/2014 6:43:35 AM PST by Night Hides Not (For every Ted Cruz we send to DC, I can endure 2-3 "unviable" candidates that beat incumbents.)
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To: PapaBear3625

The girls in AOAG were trying to marry their way out of poverty by becoming officers’ wives.

Remember the guy who washed out? His `girlfriend’ dumped him as no longer a prospect, and he hanged himself.

So.. today’s college girls are still going for that coveted Mrs degree? Not bloody likely, mate. The Devil’s Dictionary defines `husband’ as, “one who, having dined, is charged with the care of the plate.”


17 posted on 02/13/2014 6:49:11 AM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Age of Reason

And it prolly isn’t even HIS spawn.


18 posted on 02/13/2014 6:51:34 AM PST by SgtHooper (If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Do you read roosh?


19 posted on 02/13/2014 6:51:54 AM PST by MinorityRepublican
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To: SeekAndFind

I’m glad I went to college when women were chaste....

And upon occasion, caught.


20 posted on 02/13/2014 6:53:15 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: SeekAndFind

Saw enough of this in high school in the 70s to know I wanted no part of this scene. The boys acted like cocky jerks, the girls like willing pieces of kleenex who suffered after the fact.


21 posted on 02/13/2014 6:56:00 AM PST by Lizavetta
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To: SeekAndFind

Nothing shocks my senses quite like this hook-up culture on college campi.

It’s hard to think of anything more cold, sterile, and impersonal. I have no idea what young people see in it.


22 posted on 02/13/2014 6:59:02 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: PapaBear3625
Marriage is an opportunity to attach yourself to a woman who is likely to wind up ruining you financially in divorce, take away your kids, and spend her life alienating them from you.

If they even are your kids. But no matter, the government will make you support them even if they are some other guy's kids.

Marriage also tended to ensure that the average man got a woman of his own. In the current "hook up" culture, you have lots of women chasing after the most desirable men. This results in the "alpha" males getting lots of sex, and the "beta" males being ignored.

Unfortunately, a woman's marriage to a beta male was and is no guarantee the woman would stop having sex with alpha males on the side. That way she gets the best of both worlds: adultery to get alpha male genes for her children, while being married to a chump who will--often unknowingly--spend his resources raising those kids whose genes aren't even his.

Many women do this in reverse, too: they'll have children by alpha males--in or out of marriage to them--then with children in tow, and having "learned to appreciate" chumps who are good and meek providers, finds some chump to marry to pay for the raising of the alpha male(s) kids.

The best solution--and the natural one--is polygyny, in which true alpha males get to have more than one wife. This keeps the spririt of competition for the husband alive in the wives, thereby engaging them in a contest of which of them can best please the husband. It also ensures that many women can honestly, without having to cheat, endow their children with alpha male genes. And those are just a few of the benefits.

As for the beta males? Well, there will be a slight shortage of leftover homely females who would still cheat on them with an alpha if the opportunity arises (never marry a woman who travels for business, etc.), but that's the breaks.

23 posted on 02/13/2014 6:59:05 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: SgtHooper

And I believe even if you can prove the kid isn’t yours, the government will make you support it anyway.


24 posted on 02/13/2014 7:00:34 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: SeekAndFind
Sexual mores matter. Today’s lead to remarkably crude men,...

Also, today's mores have led to some remarkably crude women.
25 posted on 02/13/2014 7:10:43 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: SeekAndFind
I like the way they celebrate VD in Japan: women gift the men. Men have a chance to reciprocate on March 14 which they call “White Day” because reciprocal gifts are generally white: white chocolate, white lingerie, etc.

No, you do not give lingerie unless you are really, really close as in married or engaged or about to pop the question close. Not unless you want a dark chocolate colored eye.

26 posted on 02/13/2014 7:11:42 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
It’s hard to think of anything more cold, sterile, and impersonal. I have no idea what young people see in it.

I have to agree. At least in a cathouse, it is clear who is buying and who is selling, what is acceptable and the prices attached to it.

27 posted on 02/13/2014 7:15:40 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: SeekAndFind

A bad side to the feminist movement. Women are free to express themselves sexually. Well so are men. And men are less likely to look for a long term relationship when women are so free sexually.


28 posted on 02/13/2014 7:15:42 AM PST by dhs12345
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To: SeekAndFind
Most college women are not happy about this state of affairs.

Really? I thought a woman without a man was like a fish without a bicycle. At least that's what all the man-hating lesbian feminists that occupied my college back in the mid-70's told me.

(Great way to win someone over to your point of view, BTW--Insulting them right out of the gate.)

29 posted on 02/13/2014 7:15:47 AM PST by Arm_Bears (Shoot cops that shoot dogs.)
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To: Vigilanteman
I like the way they celebrate VD in Japan:

And a Happy Gonorrhea to you, FreeperSan. Kanpai!


30 posted on 02/13/2014 7:16:23 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Age of Reason

Exactly. The facts: there are easy women and there the marrying, long term relationship kind.

Interesting that the left push the easy kind as some kind of great thing, example: Sandra Fluke.


31 posted on 02/13/2014 7:20:57 AM PST by dhs12345
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To: Nip

Ah yes. “JOC” night at the Mather AFB O Club.

“Stars and Bars” night at the Castle AFB O Club.

And even one “Animal Night” at NAS Miramar (you saw a version of THAT in “Top Gun”. I knew the “You’ve lost that Lovin’ Feeling” trick LONG before Tom Cruise did it on the big screen. . .)


32 posted on 02/13/2014 7:26:32 AM PST by Salgak (http://catalogoftehburningstoopid.blogspot.com 100% all-natural snark !)
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To: dhs12345
The facts: there are easy women and there the marrying, long term relationship kind.

I used to think that, but under our current system, I don't think there are any long termers.

To have women that behave over the long term, the man needs to be supported by society and by law.

33 posted on 02/13/2014 7:30:52 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: Age of Reason
It takes two to tango. If women are going to act as selfish, shrewish, vacuous women, they are going to be treated as such.
34 posted on 02/13/2014 7:44:16 AM PST by Conservative4Ever (waiting for my Magic 8 ball to give me an answer)
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To: BitWielder1

Anything freely given can’t be given a high value.


35 posted on 02/13/2014 7:53:16 AM PST by Ted Grant
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To: Age of Reason
I'd rather loaf and enjoy life playing video games than get married to a modern slut harpy and in a society that will always take her side over mine in the inevitable divorce.

Thus Fred Reed: "Bob likes his girlfriend... but he also likes his scuba gear."

Ladies, you wanted the rights and priveleges of being a man. Now they are yours to enjoy.

36 posted on 02/13/2014 8:01:40 AM PST by Oberon (John 12:5-6)
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To: MinorityRepublican
Do you read roosh?

Sometimes. Also Chateau Heartiste.

37 posted on 02/13/2014 8:08:30 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: BitWielder1

Exactly. When women make themselves available to be used as receptacles, this is the result. They’ve been brainwashed into believing there are no differences between the sexes. But females do not and never will react to sex the way men do.

I’ll go out on a limb and say that if more girls WERE looking for their Mrs. degree, they would insist on at least SOME degree of respect from men.


38 posted on 02/13/2014 8:17:19 AM PST by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males----the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization.))
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To: Age of Reason
Many women do this in reverse, too: they'll have children by alpha males--in or out of marriage to them--then with children in tow, and having "learned to appreciate" chumps who are good and meek providers, finds some chump to marry to pay for the raising of the alpha male(s) kids.

The best solution--and the natural one--is polygyny, in which true alpha males get to have more than one wife. This keeps the spririt of competition for the husband alive in the wives, thereby engaging them in a contest of which of them can best please the husband. It also ensures that many women can honestly, without having to cheat, endow their children with alpha male genes. And those are just a few of the benefits.

No, the best solution is to ignore the alpha-chasing women, and refuse to be their "plan B".

The best solution has "adultery which results in cuckoldry" being grounds for divorce, with NO alimony and NO child support for children which are not biologically the husband's.

We see societies where polygyny is common, Muslim societies, and how well they work. A man who does not have the opportunity to have a family of his own, is a man who has no real stake in the survival of his society.

39 posted on 02/13/2014 8:17:29 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: SeekAndFind

I hate those darned Hallmark(TM) holidays! Promoted to “holiday” status by the card and candy companies and the florists.

Plus, whenever I’m out seeking a gift for such occasions, my mind goes blank and I usually get the wrong thing.

< /curmudgeonry >


40 posted on 02/13/2014 8:17:30 AM PST by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: Age of Reason
...married to a modern slut harpy and in a society that will always take her side over mine in the inevitable divorce.

Hell with that. Stay single guys and always use a condom so when she "accidentally" forgets to take her pills, she won't get pregnant and make the government force you to support the kid she told you she didn't plan on having.

Or how about- joining a Christ centered church or a synagogue and meeting some good Christian or observant Jewish women, who want to make a life together and love a family? Let God work in your life, you'll be happier!

41 posted on 02/13/2014 8:25:29 AM PST by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: edcoil
When my son was being recruited by the Univ of San Diego for football, on the campus visit, one of the selling points was there were four women to every guy on campus.
Two Girls for Every Boy

42 posted on 02/13/2014 8:28:22 AM PST by conservatism_IS_compassion ("Liberalism” is a conspiracy against the public by wire-service journalism.)
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To: BitWielder1
Keep your standards high, and look out for guys who kept their values.

Watch out for guys who are willing to have a lot of casual sex and think it's fun and call those same girls sluts and harpies. They're depressed losers who will have to import their wives from Russia or the Ukraine and hide their green cards. Read their FR posts and weed out the fun/slut/harpy ones.

43 posted on 02/13/2014 8:29:37 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: Vigilanteman
I like the way they celebrate VD in Japan...

The Great Gonorrhea Festival?

44 posted on 02/13/2014 8:31:53 AM PST by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed
Or how about- joining a Christ centered church or a synagogue and meeting some good Christian or observant Jewish women, who want to make a life together and love a family? Let God work in your life, you'll be happier!

Just because you find a woman in a church, doesn't mean she is a Christian, any more than finding a fox in a hen-house means you have a furry egg-layer.

She could be there just because that's where you go to find somebody who might marry you and support your spawn from your wilder days.

45 posted on 02/13/2014 9:18:13 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Age of Reason
Stay single guys and always use a condom so when she "accidentally" forgets to take her pills, she won't get pregnant and make the government force you to support the kid she told you she didn't plan on having.

That being your position, why bother with condoms? They are, after all, not totally conducive to the act, cutting down on the pleasure. Why not do the logical thing and get a vasectomy? If she takes you to court for paternity, show the judge the doctor's bill, its date and proof that you are sterile.

46 posted on 02/13/2014 9:26:41 AM PST by OldPossum ("It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is"; think about ITS implications.)
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To: Age of Reason

That could be. Maybe by nature, we are not monogomous.

Just a guess, but probably most women want a long term relationship. It is in their nature. It is programmed. Has to do with the benefits of a relable mate when raising children.

Males on the otherhand, have different goals. Procreation with a lot of females means more offspring.

So, men have to be taught to be monogomous. To overcome their nature. This is done by society, law, the parents and extended family, and most importantly the women themselves.

The free sex and feminist movement has taught men that they can get what they want without any commitment. For women, there is little or no risk of getting pregnant so they are less inhibited. However, women still retain that desire for commitment.

Anyway, it seems like a cold, cruel, and sad life to never have a long term relationship. Worse for the children if there are any.


47 posted on 02/13/2014 10:13:08 AM PST by dhs12345
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To: SeekAndFind

I went to a “Tech” school when there were four men for every woman. Good: male attention. Bad: too much male attention. Good: I like nerdy types. Bad: There is such a thing as way too nerdy. Good: I met Mr. Heartwood first week my freshman year and married him at the end of my sophomore year; we’re coming up on 32 years this spring.

But I do know that it was very hard on the men there, that most of them were willing to dance to whatever tune the women played, and that the women didn’t have to try very hard to please men (visitors tended to judge the women unattractive, because they didn’t have to try.)

At least time was on the men’s side; they graduated, matured, earned money and status.

Where the situation is reversed, and the numbers don’t favor women, time is not on their side.


48 posted on 02/13/2014 10:19:57 AM PST by heartwood
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To: Age of Reason
The best solution--and the natural one--is polygyny, in which true alpha males get to have more than one wife.

The solution is tough, kick-ass betas, and harsh consequences for adultery and fornication, which are unfortunately harsh on the innocent children.

This country wasn't founded by nothing but alphas. It was founded by men who weren't on top in old England. It didn't go from 1620 through WWII by the efforts of alphas alone. It was tough betas and their tough women, and my belief is that a society that rewards betas is going to out-compete a polygynous one.

49 posted on 02/13/2014 10:27:08 AM PST by heartwood
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion

Two Girls for Every Boy...

AKA -”Sluts d’ boxcars”


50 posted on 02/13/2014 10:29:45 AM PST by februus
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