Annihilation or Eternal Punishment?

ligonier.org ^ | February 2014 | Robert Peterson

[Former Fetus]

What “Eternal Fire” represents are the PERMANENT, IRREVERSIBLE consequences of the destruction of the SOUL in the SECOND DEATH in the LAKE OF FIRE

Really?

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night (Rev. 14:11)

[SubMareener]

Revelation 20:11-15 (RSV) “Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

So the Word of God does says that unless you name is written in the “book of life” you are thrown into the lake of fire. It is silent on whether God will write anyone’s name into the book of life during the judgment based on what they did. When the Word of God is silent on a subject it means that that subject is not our concern, but His.

There are many examples of people both before and after Jesus’ first coming who, obviously, have been saved. We know for sure that if we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord we will be saved and have our names written in the book of life. We know that we only come to the Father through Jesus, but there are no “magic words” that make this happen. Throughout His earthly ministry, Jesus was quite harsh to those who practiced a legalistic, formulaic, religion.

So do not worry about other people's fate. Accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord means that you accept God's Plan, as written. We don't get to copy edit it, or second guess it. That is what Eve did in the Garden, and that is what started this whole mess in the first place.

In the end, God is going to separate all the evil and put it into the eternal lake of fire. All that is good, and only that which is good will be present in the new heaven and the new earth. Now is the time to chose where you want to spend eternity.

[faucetman]

God has a line in the sand. IT IS FINAL. It is the first death. The second you die, a physical death, your fate is sealed. Saved go to heaven, unsaved go to hell, both for ETERNITY. PERIOD.

All have had their whole lives to repent and accept Him as their savior. Either you accept Him or you have rejected Him, there is no middle ground or gray area. It’s black and white, an “absolute”. All are without excuse.

I stole this.

Born once, die twice
Born twice, die once

Question: “Are you one of those “born again” Christians?”

Answer: “Is there any other kind?”

[faucetman]

The Jews “rejected” Jesus as the messiah. What a HUGH mistake. They are still waiting for Him. When He comes, they will be surprised to find out that this is His SECOND coming. It is not too late for the living, they can still repent and accept Him.

[CatherineofAragon]

Please don’t blame God. Scripture says it’s His will that no one perish. Anyone who ends up in Hell has chosen to do so.

[SoFloFreeper]

The text of the article addresses the arguments fairly well, I believe.

For all our culture’s self-assured sophistication, the Scripture is pretty clear that hell exists, the inhabitants thereof are conscious, and it isn’t a place where annihilation is the end goal.

Mercy and justice are two irrevocable attributes of God. Some receive mercy, some receive justice. No one receives injustice.

[stanne]

No one said you need to follow. I simply shared what theologians and historians studied in the bible to come up with what they wrote in the catechism

The author shared what he found, I shared what was studied by past historians.

That’s all

[DungeonMaster]

I really appreciate people who strongly believe either option based on the bible as opposed to heathens who believe neither.

[faithhopecharity]

Where do we submit our nominations (for either Hellish outcome)?

[RoosterRedux]

What a HUGH mistake.

Not a mistake at all...part of the plan.

In the words of Romans 11, the Jews' blindness was so that Jesus would be adopted by the Gentile world first. Thanks eternally to the Jews for their initial blindness, so that we Gentiles can be grafted onto the "olive tree" as Paul puts it.

Here's the actual Scripture from Romans 11:24-27...

Rom 11:24
For if thou [a Gentile] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches [the Jews], be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

[angryoldfatman]

OK, fine, let’s do this.

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The text of the article addresses the arguments fairly well, I believe.
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Not really. Some of its points are made simply by ignoring the annihilationist view.

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For all our culture’s self-assured sophistication, the Scripture is pretty clear that hell exists, the inhabitants thereof are conscious, and it isn’t a place where annihilation is the end goal.
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It’s not clear at all. A simple once-over of the Bible verse list in the Wikipedia article on annihilitionism proves that.

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Mercy and justice are two irrevocable attributes of God. Some receive mercy, some receive justice. No one receives injustice.
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There is no mercy in being annihilated. To be shown on Judgment Day the very thing you decided to throw away - eternal life - is justice. To be shown on Judgment Day that you can’t be trusted with immortality and its implications - and then to have it taken away - is justice.

The only reasons I can think of for more punishment than that are

1) They believe the soul is immortal (to which I reply Matthew 10:28),
2) They take comfort somehow in thought of others suffering forever with horrific pain.

Now, if you want to go further with me, I have some questions to ask after your next insistence that all who don’t believe as you believe will burn in anguish and pain forever in Hell.

[Former Fetus]

SDA?

[RoosterRedux]

The Greek word "apollymi" (as in destroy) has numerous meanings one of which is "to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell."

Mat 10:28 is not a statement that there is no life after death.

[RoosterRedux]

They take comfort somehow in thought of others suffering forever with horrific pain.

No one who has truly accepted Salvation would hold such a thought.

[ScubieNuc]

Excellent response. When I looked deeply into this issue, the two big things which changed my view from the unsaved being eternally tortured to the unsaved being annihilated in the Lake of Fire was what does “immortality” and “second death” mean.

1 Corinthians 15:53 talks about this mortal putting on immortality. When do we become immortal? The moment we accept Jesus’s immortality which is when we are saved. Immortality means to live forever. Without Jesus no one can exist forever.

Revelation talks about the second death. This is the death, ending, of the soul. The first death is the death of the earthly body, which all (but those in the rapture) will experience. The second death is experienced by the unsaved.

It is a falsehood or a ruse by some to try to claim that people who believe the Bible supports annihilation also say there is no Hell. There is a Hell and people are there no suffering today, but one day they will face the Great White Throne judgement and then be destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with Hell and Death.

[GenXteacher]

“So how is it that billions of Indians, Chinese and Japanese who have already lived and died chose to burn forever?

The percentage of (former) Asians in Heaven must be exceedingly small. Is it Justice in your opinion, that having made that choice, they suffer forever? “

The Almighty will save some who have never heard of Him, but have served Him nonetheless. The Lord will condemn those who deserve it, and reward those who deserve it. That is His to decide (or has already decided, if one believes Calvin....).

[SoFloFreeper]

yes, it is pretty clear. not necessarily comprehensive since it had to fit publication constraints. but the source site, run by those educated in the languages of the original text and in theology, are a wee bit more trustworthy than those who cite wikipedia as a fount of knowledge.

bye.

[ScubieNuc]

Revelation is a complex book and should be studied. Revelations has a lot of symbology so analyzing verses is required. With that being said, Revelation 14 is talking about the tribulation of people on Earth. It is not talking about people in Hell or in the Lake of Fire. Also, descriptions like “the SMOKE of their torment assends up for ever and ever...” are not literal unless you think this smoke will break through the atmosphere and go on forever into the universe. It simply means that people’s torment during the tribulation time will be big, painful, and long lasting.

[Former Fetus]

I have studied and taught a series on Revelation (not Revelations) and always held to the golden rule of Bible interpretation: When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.. So, when Revelation says "something like a great mountain burning with fire" the "like" tells me not to interpret it literally, it is a symbol of something or John's description of something he saw but didn't have a word for. When I read "the smoke of their torment" and "they have no rest day or night" I have no reason not to take it literally. Finally, when I compare it with other passages of Scripture, like those where Jesus Himself talked about eternal punishment, I have to agree that yes, indeed, those passages are to be interpreted literally. Chapter 14 may take place on earth, but the verse I quoted was the angelic warning of a future punishment.

[RoosterRedux]

"they have no rest day or night"

I once did something very sinful (I feel in love with another woman while married).

I can absolutely promise that I had no rest day or night, until I stopped this sin and rushed to God for forgiveness.

And, frankly, even after He forgave me, I was heartsick over my sin for years to come.

It is so incredibly easy to see that there is a hell and that there is only ONE way out of it. I know, I was there.