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Army Considers Trading Armor for Speed
Military.com ^ | Feb 12, 2014 | Matthew Cox

Posted on 02/16/2014 11:52:44 AM PST by null and void

For the past decade, armor protection has dominated U.S. combat vehicle programs. Now, maneuver officials are breaking with that tradition, abandoning armor for highly transportable, all-terrain vehicles.

The Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, Ga., recently reached out to the defense industry to see if it could build the new Ultra Light Combat Vehicle -- a new effort to equip infantry brigade combat teams with go-anywhere vehicles capable of carrying a nine-man squad.

Lawmakers recently cut most of the funding for the U.S. Army's Ground Combat Vehicle -- a move that has all but killed the high-profile acquisitions effort.

The ULCV instead would be designed to travel 75 percent of the time across country and on rough trails.

Army officials continue to work with the Marine Corps to deliver the Humvee replacement, the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle. Leaders from both services were forced to pare down expectations for this truck as costs spiraled out of control as officials wanted to increase armor while lightening the overall weight.

Maneuver officials maintain that the ULCV is not competing against the JLTV. The ULCV is designed to fill a capability gap of being large enough to carry a nine-man squad but light enough -- at 4,500 pounds -- to be sling-loaded by a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter.

The only way to achieve this weight and meet the capability is to trade armor protection for speed and mobility, Parker said.

"A lot of the stuff we have seen is more ATV-looking rather than enclosed with a cab," Parker said. "Then again, if someone brings something with a cab, we are not telling them not to."

(Excerpt) Read more at military.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: stupidity; usarmy; usnavy
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Navies start wars with heavily armed, lightly armored ships and end them with heavily armored ones.
1 posted on 02/16/2014 11:52:44 AM PST by null and void
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To: null and void

speed kills


2 posted on 02/16/2014 11:55:19 AM PST by bigheadfred
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To: null and void

Can you name a historical instance when that has happened? Just curious.


3 posted on 02/16/2014 11:56:02 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

World wars one and two?


4 posted on 02/16/2014 11:56:36 AM PST by null and void (<--- unwilling cattle-car passenger on the bullet train to serfdom)
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To: null and void

Yep, That always works out well.

The U.S. Navy took one look at H.M.S Sheffield during the Falklands and said "We can build Aluminum ship that burn brighter and kill our soldiers faster than the British can!"

Dolts, all of them.

5 posted on 02/16/2014 11:58:30 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: null and void

Ditto. Between every major conflict navies and armies trade armor for mobility. Once the SHTF, armor quickly becomes relevant.

But why do we have to learn this lesson again? They are selling off the MRAPS that replaced the under armored HUMVEES as we speak.

Rumsfield wanted to get rid of the M1, and Bradley heavy infantry and replace it with the Stryker family of vehicles. When SHTF we needed the armor. Yet here we go again.

Rinse and repeat.


6 posted on 02/16/2014 11:58:30 AM PST by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
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To: null and void

UCAVs or large drones mounted with sniper and mini HeLLFire capabilities.. That’s the future in combat.

Until conditions shut’em down, that is.

And then , it’s back to boots on the ground..

Troops in exo-armored suits..


7 posted on 02/16/2014 11:58:37 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi - Revolution is a'brewin!!!)
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To: 1rudeboy

Look up “battle cruisers”.


8 posted on 02/16/2014 11:58:57 AM PST by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
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To: null and void

WW2 saw the demise of the battleship. And WW1 was fought with heavily armed, lightly armored ships. (Not claiming to be an expert).


9 posted on 02/16/2014 11:58:58 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: null and void

Indeed.


10 posted on 02/16/2014 11:59:08 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (I will raise $2M for Sarah Palin's next run, what will you do?)
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To: null and void

Evidently these nimbos never watch youtube FSA knocking out Syrian T55 T72 tanks and BMB`s [going at full speed] with rpg`s, ATM`s, RR`s and IED`s .

WELLL, DUHHHH goombahs


11 posted on 02/16/2014 12:00:32 PM PST by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.")
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To: 1rudeboy; null and void

After World War II, the US Navy adopted the Royal Navy’s practice of armoring carrier flight decks due to their experience with the Japanese Kamikazes.


12 posted on 02/16/2014 12:01:17 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (I will raise $2M for Sarah Palin's next run, what will you do?)
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To: DariusBane

I asked an honest question. Telling me to use my web browser is worse than useless. Maybe a naval historian will come along, but thanks anyway.


13 posted on 02/16/2014 12:01:46 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: null and void

I think the Volkswagen Van fits the requirements from Fort Benning. Let’s put the Commandant of the Infantry School in a Volkswagen Van and have him charge into ambushes in Afghanistan. Everybody wants light vehicles until they start receiving fire.


14 posted on 02/16/2014 12:02:01 PM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: 1rudeboy
British Armoured Flight Deck

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_flight_deck

VS

U.S.S. Franklin


15 posted on 02/16/2014 12:02:31 PM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: 1rudeboy
(Not claiming to be an expert).

Me neither.

I read the heavily armed/lightly armored squib within the last month or so and though, 'that's interesting', but didn't note the source or fact check it.

This is FR, if it's wrong I'm pretty sure someone will be along shortly with actual facts...

16 posted on 02/16/2014 12:02:42 PM PST by null and void (<--- unwilling cattle-car passenger on the bullet train to serfdom)
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To: 1rudeboy

One of the critical lessons learned in WWII was the armored flight deck on carriers. Yes, WWII saw carriers rise to supremacy over the BBs, but the carriers designed from lessons learned during the war were substantially more heavily armored than those taken into the war.


17 posted on 02/16/2014 12:03:04 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: DariusBane
Not to worry, our civilian police departments are getting the up-armored vehicles...
“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” Barack Hussein Obama, 7/2/2008
They don’t call it a Civil Defense force, that would imply we need (or perhaps that we deserve) defense. The official name is National Civilian Community Corps.

I think of it as the NATCCC, or simply the NATCs...

18 posted on 02/16/2014 12:06:12 PM PST by null and void (<--- unwilling cattle-car passenger on the bullet train to serfdom)
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To: blueunicorn6

Sadly, even the super lights can’t drive fast everywhere. And I haven’t seen anything readily available that goes 2500+fps that people/troops can ride in.


19 posted on 02/16/2014 12:07:57 PM PST by rktman (Under my plan(scheme),unemployment will necessarily skyrocket! Despite the % dropping. Period.)
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To: 1rudeboy

I was not being smart. If you do as I suggested you will find everything you need to know about how the battle cruisers stood up to combat. Battle cruisers were armed like battleships and armored like cruisers. They traded armor for speed, range and payload.


20 posted on 02/16/2014 12:08:32 PM PST by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
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To: null and void

Until somehow they’re slowed down and then .....


21 posted on 02/16/2014 12:08:38 PM PST by SkyDancer (I Believe In The Law Until It Intereferes With Justice.)
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To: null and void

Right on! Just look at what happened to the British battle cruisers during and after WWI. They all turned out to be death traps.


22 posted on 02/16/2014 12:08:39 PM PST by libstripper (Asv)
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To: null and void

In reality it is the Praetorian Guard. It protects the Emperor


23 posted on 02/16/2014 12:09:48 PM PST by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: bert

Perhaps also because Obama intended to wreck the economy, put people on food stamps. The huge domestic security force is needed as the aura of sainthood wears off of Obama’s saintly brow.


24 posted on 02/16/2014 12:11:32 PM PST by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
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To: 1rudeboy

HMS Hood..very thin armor plate protected the decks..one shell from Bismarck penetrated the deck plate, exploded the magazine, blew up the ship..


25 posted on 02/16/2014 12:16:34 PM PST by ken5050 (This space available cheap...)
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To: bert

No kidding?


26 posted on 02/16/2014 12:17:03 PM PST by null and void (<--- unwilling cattle-car passenger on the bullet train to serfdom)
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To: null and void

no kidding........ Iran fears a resurgent armed Egypt

Iran never acts, she pays surrogates to maim enemies


27 posted on 02/16/2014 12:23:04 PM PST by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: null and void

When I was a baby Armor lieutenant studying where things were going back in the early ‘80’s, I realized that the idea of heavy armor was going to be obsolete unless it was a force field or something.
$100 man portable anti-armor vs $n million heavy platform is not a good tradeoff.
With modern equipment, if you can find it, you can see it, if you can see it, you can hit it, if you can hit it you WILL kill it.

There are times that heavy armor is the right weapon.
Stealth, speed, surprise.
Without those, with drones, missiles, new generations of explosives, computer control of systems which can be 10,000 x as fast as a human, you are liable to be the guest of honor at a bar-b-que.

Modern tanks are survivable.
That means you hose them out, replace the electronics and optics, and put in a new crew.

When there is heavy armor on the field, you have to have a counter. In the past that was your own armor.
The Russian stuff was no match for ours in Iraq. Ask H.R. McMaster.
But with the increasing availability of drones with missiles, I don’t want to be in a tank, a ship, an HQ area, etc.
Be a ghost or be a ghost.


28 posted on 02/16/2014 12:23:22 PM PST by jim999
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To: ken5050

And how is the Bismarck doing nowadays?


29 posted on 02/16/2014 12:24:30 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: null and void

The first contracts go out for the ultralight combat vehicle, first order requirements: nine person capacity and sling loading on a blackhawk.

during acceptance testing, the marines will insist on an amphibious variant, the air force will add a requirement for aircrew transport, and the army will find out the things only fit inside c-130s sideways. The ULCV project becomes the ULCV family of vehicles and additional contracts are bid out.

some time after initial fielding a part common to all variants will be found defective and each branch of service bids out contracts for replacements, none of which are interchangable.

in its first deployment, the armor will be proven ineffective for any combat condition and the next set of contracts for up armoring will be signed, no bid of course, for expediency’s sake. The uclv will no longer seat nine or be sling load capable, but fulfillment of all the accumulated contracts will now span a majority of congressional districts.

meanwhile, the special forces guys are using old toyota pickups purchased on the economy.


30 posted on 02/16/2014 12:26:05 PM PST by jz638
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To: jz638

Don’t forget. You have to line up all of the bureaucrats in the PRC so you can get them to make your strategically important parts.


31 posted on 02/16/2014 12:28:28 PM PST by jim999
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To: jz638

And you forgot to mention, the “ultralight” will weigh 40,000 pounds.


32 posted on 02/16/2014 12:33:36 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: KC_Lion; null and void

His Majesty's Ship Invincible, at Jutland.

33 posted on 02/16/2014 12:33:43 PM PST by GreenLanternCorps
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To: null and void

Here we go again. During the Iraq invasion, our troops in unarmored humvees were getting slaughtered. Soon the DOD starting bringing in up-armored humvees and started slapping ACAV gunshields on the roofs to protect the gunners. JUST LIKE IN VIETNAM! Then they brought in MRAPS with V-shaped mine resistant hulls WHICH THE SOUTH AFRICANS CAME UP WITH IN THE 1970’s!

And now JUST LIKE POST VIETNAM the lessons learned will be thrown away, common sense lost, and the Army will have to learn the same lessons with rivers of blood in the next conflict.

US Army, hundreds of years of tradition untouched by progress.


34 posted on 02/16/2014 12:35:55 PM PST by Tailback
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To: null and void
Hmmm...the 4500 lb weight target might be tough, but here goes.

British S.A.S. Desert Rats vs Rommel's Afika Korps

All field tested.

what DOD really needs is to gather NASCAR and Baja Race mechanics, a bunch of SeaBees, a passel of light trucks, a steady supply of cold beer, and a huge hanger. Lock them in and let them party and voila!

As some body pointed out up thread, they ain't ever going faster than 2500 fps much less an IED.

If fly in shoot and scoot fly out is the name of the game then the HMVs and Strykers is a prime example of what not to do.

But the very first big damn thing to do is change the ROE and lock up all the JAGS in Guantanamo for the duration...or maybe until an asteroid strikes earth.

35 posted on 02/16/2014 12:37:34 PM PST by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
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To: jz638
The first contracts go out for the ultralight combat vehicle, first order requirements: nine person capacity and sling loading on a blackhawk. during acceptance testing, the marines will insist on an amphibious variant, the air force will add a requirement for aircrew transport, and the army will find out the things only fit inside c-130s sideways. The ULCV project becomes the ULCV family of vehicles and additional contracts are bid out. some time after initial fielding a part common to all variants will be found defective and each branch of service bids out contracts for replacements, none of which are interchangable. in its first deployment, the armor will be proven ineffective for any combat condition and the next set of contracts for up armoring will be signed, no bid of course, for expediency’s sake. The uclv will no longer seat nine or be sling load capable, but fulfillment of all the accumulated contracts will now span a majority of congressional districts. meanwhile, the special forces guys are using old toyota pickups purchased on the economy.

This for the win! I wish FR had a post rating system cuz you just got 11/10
36 posted on 02/16/2014 12:40:53 PM PST by Tailback
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To: KC_Lion
It's not just aluminum superstructures that caused the loss of British ships in the Falklands.

If one looks at comparable "missile sponges" like the Stark and Roberts you can see that damage control can play a huge factor in saving or losing a ship.

37 posted on 02/16/2014 12:44:03 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: 1rudeboy
And how is the Bismarck doing nowadays?

A biplane dropped a torpedo that irreparably damaged the rudder on the Bismarck, or she would have made it into the protective umbrella of the Luftwaffe. As it turns out, it likely would have been sunk later as its sister the Turpitz was. Until that point in the sea battle, the ship was doing quite well.

Germany, as a continental power didn't use carriers like its ally or its enemy. Its naval strength lay in its U-boats, which succumbed or lost effectiveness to airpower.

38 posted on 02/16/2014 12:44:09 PM PST by xone
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To: jz638
seems to me the HUMMER was built for this job but then everybody complained because it didn't have armor... well neither did the Jeep it replaced
39 posted on 02/16/2014 12:50:07 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: 1rudeboy

The bismark was sent out solo and killed by 20 or so British cruisers, destroyers, airpower. Bismark was killed by hubris and no tactical planning.

Our current 100 million dollar tin cans can be disabled by a swarm attack of speedboats with machine guns. No armor to mention.


40 posted on 02/16/2014 12:53:42 PM PST by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
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To: blueunicorn6

Good point, and the guys recommending the move away from armor won’t be riding in the vehicles taking fire.


41 posted on 02/16/2014 12:53:49 PM PST by Hardastarboard (The question of our age is whether a majority of Americans can and will vote us all into slavery.)
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To: Covenantor
But the very first big damn thing to do is change the ROE and lock up all the JAGS in Guantanamo for the duration...or maybe until an asteroid strikes earth.

Now, you're talking about actually attaining victory over a named enemy. This is about the circle of life inside the DoD and defense industry church of procurement. These two things only incidentally match up on rare occasion, like a giant asteroid hitting the earth.

42 posted on 02/16/2014 12:53:57 PM PST by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: null and void
"Maneuver officials"?
What the hell's a "Maneuver official" - other than someone who has never been caught in a firesack while driving a lightly armored vehicle before?
43 posted on 02/16/2014 1:05:02 PM PST by grobdriver (Where is Wilson Blair when you need him?)
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To: 1rudeboy

Jutland


44 posted on 02/16/2014 1:15:51 PM PST by Dawggie
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To: null and void

On the actual battlefield they will, like the HUMVs be uparmored with whatever shielding can be fastened on by the troops and will be found to be terribly underpowered..


45 posted on 02/16/2014 1:17:57 PM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
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To: Dawggie

Really? Please elaborate.


46 posted on 02/16/2014 1:18:48 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: null and void
Every armchair bureaucrat talks "light and lethal." It gets lots of head nods at meetings. The problem is, the shoe clerks have never seen an artillery attack, or experience carpet bombs rattling their pink bodies.

Once the lead starts flying, you don't want "light" separating you from the hot lead, and the "lethal lite" doesn't break the other guy's heavy so well. In the end, it will get you killed.

People want "light and lethal" because they don't want to deal with heavy air and sea lift required to the get the heavy stuff to where the bad guys are. But heavy lift ultimately wins wars.

47 posted on 02/16/2014 1:20:35 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: 1rudeboy
WW2 saw the demise of some battleships. The Gulf War saw the effective use of a ww2 battleship, actually.
48 posted on 02/16/2014 1:22:02 PM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
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To: grobdriver

An official from “The Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, Ga.”

See paragraph 2...


49 posted on 02/16/2014 1:24:13 PM PST by null and void (<--- unwilling cattle-car passenger on the bullet train to serfdom)
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To: grobdriver

“Maneuver Center of Excellence” once known as the Armor School and was at Ft. Knox. Now thanks to what I suspect was bureaucratic infighting among Army generals, we now have the Armor School renamed and moved to Ft. Benning, GA; home of the Infantry. Artillery is now called “Fires”.....I guess some genius figured for his Six Sigma project we would rename and move Combat schools and say we saved money. In 20 years the circle will be complete and that “1 D 10 T” will be the general authorizing the moving and renaming of the “MCE” back to Armor School and it’s movement back to Ft. Knox.
Waste of time and money, but he got his Black Belt and promotion.
( I D 10 T = idiot )


50 posted on 02/16/2014 1:24:50 PM PST by rustyboots
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