Posted on 02/20/2014 6:20:19 AM PST by PapaBear3625
>>Europeans, after all, have never killed many millions of Ukrainians. Russians have, within the last century.<<
You might be kidding. Remember Holocaust? Last time I’ve check Ukraine and Poland were a primary scenes of this event.
LOL! Good one!
The Nazi killing of Ukrainians was not "personal" I would suggest in the same way that the commie Holodomor was. The Nazis weren't aimed at Ukrainians in particular, they were out to squash all the untermenschen.
Lenin, Stalin and their guys saw the Ukraine, probably accurately, as the potential Achilles' heel of the USSR, which needed to be smashed flat. So they did.
At any rate, I think it is indisputable that many modern Ukrainians see Putin's Russia as the heir of Stalin in a way that they do not see today's EU as the heir of Wilhelm I or Hitler. And I would suggest they are correct in this belief.
BTW, historically speaking it is probable more Ukrainians (as a percentage of population at the time) were killed over the centuries by Poles and Tatars than by Germans or Russians.
Thanks be to God!
And does Time attempt to back up this claim anywhere in the article, or do they just let it sit there and assume it's true? Who made the accusations? Are they credible? Is there proof?
Somehow I doubt it. Just more Left-wing propaganda trying to crush Christianity.
Hey, anybody can accuse me of atrocities like eating babies.
Notice that the author just says "accused" rather than "there is evidence of atrocities" or "there are witnesses to atrocities".
Muslims are encouraged to lie if it helps their cause. Look at what they regularly accuse Israelis of.
>>The Nazi killing of Ukrainians was not “personal” I would suggest in the same way that the commie Holodomor was.<<
It is mind blowing how deeply Ukrainian nationalist propaganda affected a public opinion.
You need to learn about collectivisation and industrialization. ‘Holodomor’ as an ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians by Russians is an agitprop construction invented by some Ukrainians, who are aware of obsession with race issues in the West and wants to win sympathy playing a victim of some kind of racism.
Being a victim of ‘Russian bear’ - a pretty unpopular symbol at the time, adds another numerous points to their perception as an oppressed minority - a very valuable status in modern US, which Ukrainian nationalist ex-pats wouldn’t miss to exploit.
You have also to take into account that Ukrainian nationalist’s anti-Semitism and their extremely active role in Holocaust as Nazi collaborators are well known and for that reason it is very important for them to highlight themselves as a vigilant antagonists of the Russians to stress that Nazi collaboration was picking ‘lesser of two evils’.
For obvious reason they aren’t mentioning that it was the same people helped commies liberate the rich of their riches who later switched sides and helped Nazi to round the Jews later as winds changed.
Indeed, Holodomor really happened but it was anything but Russian racism and it was mostly perpetrated by Ukrainian communists, led by Georgian dictator of Soviet Union, not Russians.
To make things clear, Holodomor was a result of Stalin’s attempt to herd people into cities to man newly-established industry and for tighter control. Declining rural population, a failure of central planners to effectively mechanize agriculture to increase productivity for compensation of that decline and a drought in earlier 1930s made food shortages. When urban communist went to rural communities to confiscate food hoarded by village folks to bring a ‘fair share’ to urban dwellers who were a priority at the time. It made hunger in countryside, many people died.
Important part of a story: it has happened all over Soviet Union and it was Russians who suffered the most. Yet, they aren’t cranking out racist theories blaming Georgia or Ukraine for ‘genocidal Holodomor of Russians’ committed by Georgian and his henchmen, including numerous Ukrainians in ranks of KGB.
The problem is Ukrainian nationalists in US doesn’t want anyone to know this bitter truth because it strips them of their premium status of a vigilant ethnic minority, racially targeted by ‘evil commie Russians’ bringing both love of American left and some kind of admiration from Conservatives.
Let them show their true color - a disillusioned collaborators or victims of their own leftism and none, especially liberal media, would ever note their existence.
Btw, Holodomor myth is not a single Russian-taunting piece of Ukrainian nationalist agitprop. These people are masters of extrapolation. ‘Russian’ prostitutes, ‘Russian’ mafia in US are both 90% Ukrainian. So does ‘Russians’ in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, allegedly ‘leeching welfare system for Mother Russia’.
Btw, I’m very interested to know dfwgator’s opinion on a subject, who probably has some Polish roots and for that reason might know a couple things about Ukrainian nationalism.
Sigh, that "racism" again! The idea of racism is said to have been invented by Leon Trotsky as a weapon against the West. It's worked like magic, a concept that has caught up across the political spectrum better than hula hoop and yoyo combined. That said, whoever invented it in the 20th century, and it was an invention like the transistor, it didn't exist during the time of Holomodor, so let's not apply it to it. Or else, apply it across the board (and absurdly) to Homer's Greeks and the Trojans, and the entire history of mankind. It's an article of faith, this "racism", like god, you cannot touch it, see it, but you know it exists! Don't you?
Still, I'll grant you that the US Ukrainians may be playing on it, I don't know and have no opinion. After all everyone is playing on it. And to remind you, it used to mean white vs black vs red vs yellow, but when Joe DiMaggio died, the Wall Street Journal, on its first page asserted that he had encountered "racism" at the start of his careers, and that was the time that I began to understand that "racism" is another word for "bad".
Oh, and the word is "ethnocentrism". Race studies was something conducted by the Germans during Hitler's reign, hence the word "racism" is meant to associate the sinner/criminal with... if not Hitler then certainly Dr Mengele. Like the transistor, it was a clever invention.
>>Sigh, that “racism” again! The idea of racism is said to have been invented by Leon Trotsky as a weapon against the West.<<
I’m fully aware of it. Too bad Trotskism is alive and well in the West today.
>>And to remind you, it used to mean white vs black vs red vs yellow, but when Joe DiMaggio died, the Wall Street Journal, on its first page asserted that he had encountered “racism” at the start of his careers, and that was the time that I began to understand that “racism” is another word for “bad”.<<
All true. The left has extended this term to enormous scale and there is no option but to live with it until conditions are changed.
I think you got what I mean in earlier post anyway.
I’m feeling pedantic today in face of all that misinformation on this forum, but I do agree with your post, especially the part about the native collaborators of the Russian Communists, who of course appeared in all Eastern European countries, even if they were a tiny minority of local Communist parties in pre-communist times. And the puppets of Russia live and act there to this day, Communism or democracy.
Do not listen to this kid. To make stuff up, without reference or doing any homework, does not take a great deal of intelligence.
The claim that is repeated twice here is that Holodomor was commited by Ukrainian Communists and a Georgian. Yes, there were Ukrainians in the Party but these were a minority in the Communist Party of Ukraine. It’s similar to having Communist Party of Poland and have 70% of that party to be Russian. The stats (pay attention cunning fish how to do this properly) are below. I was posting it at this forum a few years ago and the links don’t work any more, but I assure you they had been working in 2006; otherwise I would have been called on it. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1566724/posts?page=74#74)
Yes there were Ukrainian communists. But they were under-represented. Population wise Ukrainians to Russians are 1: 3, 1:4. (BTW before USSR it was about 1:2.5)
From the site I previously cited http://old.iea.ras.ru/Russian/personnel/Tishkov/Book1/chapter2_3.html - table 2 of members and candidates of Politburo. During the 1920s ratio was 4 Ukrainians to 38 Russians (or ~1:10), 1930s ratio 2:21 (or 1:10). Russians comprised slightly more than 50% of USSR, yet during all these USSR years Russians made almost 70% of Politburo.
Quoting from: http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/soviet-union/soviet-union209.html
“.. In 1922 the share of Russian members in the party exceeded their proportion of the population by 19 percent.”
Same with OGPU (->NKVD/KGB), http://www.fsb.ru/history/read/1999/kapchinsky.html ,in 1921- Out of 49,991 OGPU workers, 1,559 Ukrainians (3%), 38,648 Russians (77%). Leadership of OGPU, (Central Apparat), in 1924 out of 2,402 there are 1670 Russians (70%), 66 Ukrainians (3%)
90% Russian hookers and mafia are just ravings not worth my time
>>The claim that is repeated twice here is that Holodomor was commited by Ukrainian Communists and a Georgian. Yes, there were Ukrainians in the Party but these were a minority in the Communist Party of Ukraine. It’s similar to having Communist Party of Poland and have 70% of that party to be Russian. The stats (pay attention cunning fish how to do this properly) are below. I was posting it at this forum a few years ago and the links don’t work any more, but I assure you they had been working in 2006; otherwise I would have been called on it. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1566724/posts?page=74#74)<<
It makes no sense to manipulate these numbers and bring an entire USSR into discussion as far as we are talking about Ukraine.
Yes, Ukrainians were a minority among federal USSR elites (but still present within it which you admit) oppressing the entire USSR population for obvious reason (Ukrainians were a minority in USSR), but it is not the case on state and local level in Ukraine itself.
Non-Ukrainian commies were probably present within commie Ukrainian administration as well, but you haven’t bring any numbers to prove they were at least a vast minority, let alone a majority. It is simply not true.
Holodomor in Ukraine was perpetrated by fellow Ukrainians. It is a fact of history and no agitprop can change it.
>> 90% Russian hookers and mafia are just ravings not worth my time<<
Go stand on Riegelmann broadwalk in Brooklyn and ask people where they came from. You’ll hear ‘Odessa’, ‘Kyev’ most of the time. There are more Russian-speaking brown people from Uzbekistan than real Russians from Russia in NYC.
You can also examine surnames of known ‘Russian’ mobsters to learn their ethnicity.
As for hookers it is my theory, sure. I haven’t met neither ‘Russian’ nor Russian prostitutes in US but I’ve seen three of them in Dubai and one in Egypt and for that reason can see parallels to a Brooklyn demography I described earlier. All four were known as Russians but one of them had Uzbek and the rest Ukrainian passports.
:-)
What about Ukrainian nationalists?
It does make sense to look at the whole of USSR, as well as at the local Ukrainian level.
Ukrainians were a 15% minority in USSR by population. If they had made up 15% of all communists in the USSR, you would have a point, but that is not the case. Especially amazing, to me at least, is that only 3% of OGPU/KGB for the entire USSR was Ukrainian.
Looking at the local level, the picture is somewhat similar. Since you’re the one claiming that Ukrainian Communists committed the genocide, the burden to provide references should be on you, not me.
To start with, Communist party of Ukraine (CPU) in 1917 was made up almost exclusively by people who were Jewish and Russian, and percentage of Ukrainians was in single digits. They had no support in Kyiv and had to flee to Kharkiv (Somewhat similar to today). Soviet Russia and the Red Army invaded, Civil War ensued and by end of ’21, they controlled the country. After this conquest, Ukraine is considered a captive nation, controlled by the CPU that is made up primarily by non-Ukrainians (with the carefully vetted Ukrainians) AND the central government in Moscow (one has to consider them, given the highly centralized structure of the country)
The percentage of Ukrainians in CPU in 1917 was around 10%, increased to around 20% (early 20s) to maybe a majority by the end of the 20s. Something around 55% by the time of the Famine in 1932, can’t recall exactly, but you’re the one to provide references. All this at the time when Ukrainians were 80% of the population. The Ukrainians that did join the party were carefully vetted gullible idealists and national traitors, many of whom got what they deserved (see Mykola Khvylovy).
These numbers speak about the make up of the entire CPU. At the highest leadership level of the CPU, it was even worse.
Communist Party on Wiki lists the First Secretaries of the CP of Ukraine. Their ethnicity, with some repeats, is as follows:
A Russian, German/Jewish?, German, Russian, Polish, Jewish, Russian, Polish, Russian, Polish, Manuilsky – finally a Ukrainian, German, Jewish, Polish Kosior at the time of the Holodomor, Russian, Jewish, Russian, Russian, 1950s on – Ukrainian.
Nothing to be said here
To conclude, this has some similarities to what happened in other captive nations where USSR had installed loyal governments after WW2. You cannot absolve Soviet/Russian crimes by claiming that these governments committed crimes against their own populations, i.e. they did it to themselves. At least the governments in these countries were setup by their own local communists, Ukrainians had their communists imported.
Standing on the street or seeing them in Dubai is the definition of anecdotal evidence. As a rule, anecdotal evidence is not reliable.
My understanding is that Little Odessa is mostly Jewish emigres from Ukraine and Russia, followed by ethnic Ukrainians and Russians. Definitely not 90% Ukrainian. Dunno, don’t care enough to look up the census results
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