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America and Ukraine: The threat to freedom
The Economist ^ | 02/20/2014 | The Economist editorial staff

Posted on 02/20/2014 1:15:57 PM PST by The KG9 Kid

AMERICA and Europe, exhausted by futile wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and by their own financial crises, have over the past five years come to a tacit consensus that they lack the power and the political will to bring democracy to far-flung, failing authoritarian states. That seemed a sad but wise conclusion so long as those failing authoritarian states really were far-flung. Then, yesterday, the zone of failing authoritarian states arrived at our doorstep. The massacres of demonstrators in Kiev's Independence Square are as awful as anything that took place during the coup in Cairo last year or the initial crackdowns on demonstrations in Damascus two years ago. In Egypt and Syria, America and Europe have largely thrown up their hands, recognising that such states are simply too alien and too far away, in terms of political culture, development levels, and strategic importance, for intensive Western intervention to be promising or worthwhile. Ukraine is different, and the stakes are higher. For the first time since Yugoslavia in 1991, a European country bordering EU member states is on the brink of civil war.

(Excerpt) Read more at economist.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: ukraine
"... But no matter how widespread the fighting becomes, the only country that could conceivably intervene militarily is Russia. (Mr Putin's top Ukraine adviser, Sergei Glazyev, has openly hinted Russia may do so.) That leaves America and the EU with one option: economic sanctions. But economic sanctions will never deter a regime from killing protestors when it correctly understands that it is fighting for its life. What can Americans do with this conflict that it cannot win?"

A: Back in the good old days, the CIA used to run guns to those opposing the regimes backed by the communist Russian potato-heads. Reagan would know what to do.

1 posted on 02/20/2014 1:15:58 PM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid

the author sounds nostalgic for “nation building”

Neocon warmongering, albeit with the realization that we can’t do that anymore.

Not our fight.


2 posted on 02/20/2014 1:20:55 PM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, deport all illegal aliens, abolish the IRS, DEA and ATF.)
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To: The KG9 Kid

A:
Leave it alone.
not worth one drop of American blood or once cent of US treaure to mess around with anything outside of our borders.


3 posted on 02/20/2014 1:21:53 PM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, deport all illegal aliens, abolish the IRS, DEA and ATF.)
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To: The KG9 Kid
He has reinforced his political position by building cronyistic relationships with powerful business figures. In this system the state creates economic rents and awards them to favoured business interests, who in turn buttress the state's political power, all while maintaining the trappings of democracy.

Sounds familiar...

4 posted on 02/20/2014 1:27:19 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: The KG9 Kid

It would be an absolute disaster for the United States to involve itself in the Ukrainian crisis. A consensus must be achieved within the Ukraine however difficult the process. The economic reality is that eventually the German-Russian economic axis, which between 1870-1914 was one of the world’s most dynamic, is destined to revive. The Germans tired of their free spending, chronically indebted, non productive Western and Southern European partners will once again shift its economic focus toward the boundless resources and potential of Russia. Ukraine, Poland and Belarus lie on that axis and will inevitably be a part of it. The US has little or no real vested interest, need not be hostile or feel threatened.


5 posted on 02/20/2014 1:28:50 PM PST by allendale
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To: The KG9 Kid

It’s rumored that Yanukovich’s sons have fled the country. While the current Ukrainian administration seems to be trying to restrict travel to Kiev, it isn’t working. Kiev has become a magnet for protestors. The army has already bowed out.

Yanukovich has crossed the line with the killings. Whether that was at the insistence of Putin to get the next installment on the loan is a matter of conjecture.


6 posted on 02/20/2014 1:29:46 PM PST by meatloaf (Impeach Obama. That's my New Year's resolution.)
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To: The KG9 Kid

Tell, Puty-Poot to let Western Ukraine go. Should they prove successful as a Society, they may provide a model for the rest of the Russian Empire.


7 posted on 02/20/2014 1:30:29 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: Iscool
Sounds familiar...

Doesn't it though.

8 posted on 02/20/2014 1:30:50 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: The KG9 Kid
AMERICA and Europe, exhausted by futile wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and by their own financial crises, have over the past five years come to a tacit consensus that they lack the power and the political will to bring democracy to far-flung, failing authoritarian states.

That is not why we elect our representatives.

There is nothing in the US Constitution or the job description and oath of office for presidents, senators or congressmen about extorting money from working people to finance crusades to overthrow other governments.

The irony is that this is supposedly about the US federal government bringing democracy to other countries while the same government is strangling freedom and perevrting democracy right here in the USA.

9 posted on 02/20/2014 1:31:53 PM PST by Iron Munro ("Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime." - Lavrentiy Beria (& Eric Holder))
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To: Paladin2

After the kill the remaining Jews there? My father is a Holocaust and told me the West Ukrainians were worse than the Nazis.


10 posted on 02/20/2014 1:34:54 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: Paladin2

After they kill the remaining Jews there? My father is a Holocaust survivor and told me the West Ukrainians were worse than the Nazis.


11 posted on 02/20/2014 1:36:10 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
That was then, this is now.

Let the western Ukraine align with Poland.

If there are still Jews there who are at risk, do you trust Pooty-put to protect them?

Western Europe apparently is becoming inhospitable to Jews. I don't know the answer, but letting half of the Ukraine go doesn't seem all bad.

12 posted on 02/20/2014 1:38:55 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: Iscool
Sounds like one of Jefferson's indictments against King George III in the Declaration of Independence.

These Ukrainian protesters haven't got a declaration of their own; they're merely demanding that the Ukrainian Constitution of 2004 be re-adopted.

They need to get a declaration out to their supporters to define what they're fighting for. Create a new congress, and so on. Follow the American Revolutionary model. It works. Have Petrol-filled beer bottles used as Molotov cocktails ever changed a government?

13 posted on 02/20/2014 1:40:32 PM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: meatloaf

I am begining to wonder if, once the winter olympics wrap up on Sunday in Sochi, Putin may do an invasion.


14 posted on 02/20/2014 1:40:58 PM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

Svoboda is not the OUN.

Don’t believe the hype.


15 posted on 02/20/2014 1:41:14 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Tre Norner eg ber, binde til rota...)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
...the West Ukrainians were worse than the Nazis.

Yep. They were the best of collaborators and willingly embraced Fascism and genocide.

However you might be surprised at their disposition, the Germans rounded 'em up, and sent 'em to the same camps to share the same fate.

16 posted on 02/20/2014 1:44:39 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

Ukraine has been and still is a mess. During WW II some welcomed the Nazis to counter the Russians. Others welcomed the Russians to counter the Nazis. Pick your poison. Jews, of course, have always been convenient scapegoats.

I had a Jewish great uncle that fought in the Russian army during WW II. Afterwards he had a hard time entering this country because he was thought to be a communist.


17 posted on 02/20/2014 1:44:48 PM PST by meatloaf (Impeach Obama. That's my New Year's resolution.)
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To: Paladin2
Tell, Puty-Poot to let Western Ukraine go.

It would be very easy. Galicia was always a trouble for anyone. They were fighting on Nazi side in the World War II. The area does not have much of industry anyway.

It is likely that indeed we are seeing the last days of the united Ukraine. Some Crimean lawmakers already suggested that Russia should take their region back (it was reassigned from Russia to Ukraine by Communists.) If the violence spreads and becomes a serious issue, something similar to the Anschluss may happen - with cheers from both sides. Russia will simply say that it has to protect Russian-speaking population from terrorists; the separatists will be glad because this gives them the Western Ukraine.

18 posted on 02/20/2014 1:46:50 PM PST by Greysard
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To: The KG9 Kid
The massacres of demonstrators in Kiev's Independence Square are as awful as anything that took place during the coup in Cairo last year or the initial crackdowns on demonstrations in Damascus two years ago.

But was there really a "massacre" of demonstrators in Kiev's Independence Square? What are the facts of the matter?

19 posted on 02/20/2014 1:47:13 PM PST by olezip (Time obliterates the fictions of opinion and confirms the decisions of nature. ~ Cicero)
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To: olezip

My thoughts exactly. Reports say protesters were throwing fire bombs. What is the appropriate response from police when this happens?


20 posted on 02/20/2014 1:52:26 PM PST by pas
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To: The KG9 Kid

It’s so uplifting to see so many on this forum on the side of corrupt, murderous Ukrainian oligarchy.


21 posted on 02/20/2014 1:55:24 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: Paladin2
Poland wants nothing to do with West Ukrainian lunatics, because they realize that the core of the so- called opposition is made up of fanatic, radical, fascist nationalists loudly supporting the past deeds and celebrating the memory of the Stepen Bandera's Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which engaged in unthinkable massacres of Polish population in Eastern Poland. The Polish do not like this bloody attempt at coup d'etat at all. Not a one bit. Dr Aleksander Korman "Ukraińska Powstańcza Armia na terenach II Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej i jej stosunek do ludności polskiej", "Na Rubieży" 35/1999: Below are some examples of the practice of physical torture and atrocities by the OUN-UPA terrorists against men, women and children of Polish nationality: 1 Hammering large and thick nail into the skull 2 Peel the skin of the head of hair (scalping) 3 A blow to the skull with back of an axe 4 A blow to the forehead with back of an axe 5 Engraving on the forehead "eagle" 6 Sticking a bayonet in the temple of the head 7 Plucking out one eye 8 Plucking out two eyes 9 Cutting off the nose 10 Cutting off one ear 12 Razing off both ears 13 Perforation of ear with a pointed thick wire through the other ear 14 Cutting off lips 15 Clipping tongue 16 Slitting the throat 17 Slitting the throat and pulling out the tongue through the opening 18 Slitting the throat and inserting rags into the hole 19 Knocking out the teeth 20 Breaking the jaw 21 Disruption of the mouth from ear to ear 22 Gagging still living victims while transporting 23 Undercutting the neck with a knife or a sickle 24 Blow with an axe to the neck 25 Splitting the head vertically with an axe 26 Screwing head backwards 27 Making pulp out of the head by putting in between clamps tightened with screws 28 Cutting off the head with a sickle 29 Cutting off the head with a scythe 30 Cutting off the head with an axe 31 Blow with an axe to the neck 32 Stabbing the head 33 Cutting and pulling narrow strips of skin from the back 34 Various stabbing to the back 35 Blows of a bayonet in the back 36 Breaking the rib bones of the chest 37 Blow with a knife or bayonet through the heart or around the heart 38 Stabbing a knife or a bayonet of the chest 39 Trimming women breast with a sickle 40 Trimming women breast and sprinkling wounds with salt 41 Cutting off victim's male genitals with a sickle 42 Cutting the trunk in half with chainsaw for carpentry 43 Stabbing the abdomen with a knife or a bayonet 44 Piercing the belly of a pregnant woman with a bayonet 45 Cutting stomach of adults and pulling out the intestines 46 Cutting belly of a woman in advanced pregnancy in place of the removed fetus insertion of a live cat and stitching up the stomach 47 Cutting the belly and pouring boiling water inside 48 Cutting the belly of a woman, inserting stones into it and then throwing her into the river 49 Cutting out pregnant women's belly and throwing broken glass inside 50 Pulling out a vein from one groin down to the feet 51 Inserting burning iron into the vagina 52 Inserting pine cone from the apex side into the vagina 53 Inserting sharpened pin into the vagina and pushing up into the throat, inside and out 54 Cutting the front of the women torso with a gardening knife, from the vagina up to her neck and leaving the insides on the outside 55 Hanging the victims by the bowels 56 Inserting glass bottle into the vagina and crushing it 57 Inserting glass bottle into the anus and crushing it 58 Cutting belly and pouring into the interior food for hungry pigs, which tore it out along with intestines and other innards 59 Cutting off one hand with an axe 60 Cutting off both hands with an axe Half of my family (from Poland) was wiped out in the Holocaust. My dad was in Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen and other death camps, with German and West Ukrainian guards. The Ukrainians were worse than the S.S. Murderous crazies. Being unleashed by the E.U. and with U.S. support.
22 posted on 02/20/2014 2:00:12 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: Dead Corpse

Svoboda worships the OUN. And emulates it.


23 posted on 02/20/2014 2:00:50 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: The KG9 Kid
I Am a Ukrainian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Hvds2AIiWLA

Shocking Riot Videos and Pics: Watch Protesters Destroy Armored Vehicle With Molotov Cocktails
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3124556/posts

Ukraine: Security Service killed woman
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=63e_1392815494

Woman Shot Dead in Ukraine
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=592_1392817017

Ukraine: Tenopil, Ukrainian Police Declare That They Are On Side of Protesters
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dbd_1392772781#iyBzVJKyi2KBhUbi.99

24 posted on 02/20/2014 2:02:02 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: allendale
We don't need to get involved.

Our cowardly President's response was not: "We support freedom in Ukraine and we wish the reformers well."

Nor was it: "Let them settle matters themselves. We have no opinion."

It was: "Russia, can we hold your coat if you decide to intervene against these freedom-loving troublemakers?"

25 posted on 02/20/2014 2:02:53 PM PST by wideawake
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To: The KG9 Kid

The EU won’t lift a finger. They are too busy in Brussels figuring out the legal size of peas and bananas to care about such trifling issues such as unrest in Ukraine. Putin sure will have fun when he occupies the spigots on the shores of Odessa and Sabastopol. He already got ‘em from the Georgians.


26 posted on 02/20/2014 2:04:38 PM PST by Organic Panic
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
Your post is poorly-formatted nonsense.

These are not blood and soil Ukrainian fascists - those groups exist mostly in your fevered dreams.

These are people who want to live in a reasonably free and prosperous country.

They are looking for EU membership, for goodness' sake.

27 posted on 02/20/2014 2:05:15 PM PST by wideawake
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To: The KG9 Kid
Have Petrol-filled beer bottles used as Molotov cocktails ever changed a government?

They have.

That's the French model.

28 posted on 02/20/2014 2:06:42 PM PST by wideawake
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To: olezip
But was there really a "massacre" of demonstrators in Kiev's Independence Square? What are the facts of the matter?

Five people were killed by British troops during the Boston Massacre.

@6 and counting have been killed so far in Independence Square.

So yes, there has already been a massacre. Not a "massacre" but a massacre.

29 posted on 02/20/2014 2:09:37 PM PST by wideawake
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To: The KG9 Kid

Rush said something interesting today.

In the Ukraine we have protesters that are calling for limits on government power, and government enforcers that are cracking the heads of the protesters.

Which side would Obama be on if it was happening here?
Rhetorical question, I know.


30 posted on 02/20/2014 2:09:56 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

This was debated on another thread.

In my opinion, the UN sends troops in to backstop the regime’s Homeland Security against us.

Interestingly their two largest force components are from Pakistan and Bangladesh. So the philosophies would mesh well.


31 posted on 02/20/2014 2:13:18 PM PST by nascarnation (I'm hiring Jack Palladino to investigate Baraq's golf scores.)
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To: Revolting cat!
Tell me about it. I agree that it's 'Not Our Fight' and respect Washington's advice about 'foreign entanglements', but sufficient crates of sterile SKS rifles showing up without any 'Lend-Lease' strings attached doesn't rise to a foreign entanglement.
32 posted on 02/20/2014 2:13:28 PM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: olezip

Sorry, that was 26. And the latest article from IBT actually says as many as 35.


33 posted on 02/20/2014 2:14:31 PM PST by wideawake
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To: The KG9 Kid

Very true.


34 posted on 02/20/2014 2:15:41 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Iron Munro
The irony only exists if you believe that our government is using our military as a sword for righteous democracy. HA!!
The sword wielded by OUR military at the behest of the US gov’t is in fact controlled by the international banking cabal. Plain and simple! Democracy is only as good as the Federal Reserve Note that it is printed on.
“ If you like your Dollar democracy “, “you can keep your dollar democracy”. If you don't.....we will destroy you!!!
35 posted on 02/20/2014 2:16:31 PM PST by free from tyranny
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To: The KG9 Kid

Reagan would have demonstrated leadership in this matter.
We have pussies in Washington now.


36 posted on 02/20/2014 2:17:01 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: free from tyranny
controlled by the international banking cabal. Plain and simple

Leave some Reynolds Wrap for the rest of us.

37 posted on 02/20/2014 2:36:32 PM PST by wideawake
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To: allendale
The Germans tired of their free spending, chronically indebted, non productive Western and Southern European partners will once again shift its economic focus toward the boundless resources and potential of Russia.

Doubtful. Right now it's the exact opposite. Ten years ago Germany was optimistic about the economic potential of Russia, and it turned out to be a huge disappointment. Sure, Mercedes sells some 6-wheel drive G-Wagens to the oligarchs. But there is no democratic reform, no true middle class, lousy productivity, no potential for investment. Just crony capitalism and paralizing corruption. Russia squanders the money it earns by selling its natural resources on an ineffective system instead of investing it in its future (technology etc.).
38 posted on 02/20/2014 2:49:57 PM PST by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

Yeah, well... No.

But thanks for playing.


39 posted on 02/20/2014 2:53:02 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Tre Norner eg ber, binde til rota...)
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To: olezip
Fact: Targeted killings by (mostly likely SBU) snipers. Demonstrators shot in the head, heart, lungs.

Sure, some police officers were indeed "defending themselves" at the fringes of the Maidan square. But the massacre of demonstrators did indeed happen.
40 posted on 02/20/2014 2:56:46 PM PST by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
West Ukrainians were worse than the Nazis

Indeed. Mykola Lebed is one name that comes to mind from that time period. Not much has changed over there since then either. I'm very surprised to see Poland supporting this fascist revolt.

41 posted on 02/20/2014 3:00:10 PM PST by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: wideawake
Well, wideawake you may be, in some sleepwalking state of delusion if you think for one moment that only some tin foil wearing conspiracy theorist would conceive of something so silly.
Mr. Troll or PFC Troll, perhaps doing some reading on the subject of the IMF or World Bank or the Bank of International Settlements might help your alleviate your current state of delusion. Or you could swallow a couple of hours of Fox News and go back to sleep walking while being wideawake.
Google World Bank whistleblower Karen Hudes. If you think I'm wearing a tin foil hat, then she must have an aluminum smelter.
42 posted on 02/20/2014 3:35:07 PM PST by free from tyranny
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To: Iscool

Yes it does sound familiar. So does the situation. “Arab Spring” comes to mind.

What goes around, comes around.


43 posted on 02/20/2014 6:37:09 PM PST by Psalm 144 (Capitol to the districts: "May the odds be ever in your favor.")
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To: wideawake; LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

>>>Your post is poorly-formatted nonsense.
These are not blood and soil Ukrainian fascists - those groups exist mostly in your fevered dreams.

These are people who want to live in a reasonably free and prosperous country.

They are looking for EU membership, for goodness’ sake.<<<

I have a Greek friend who was beaten in Lvov suburb by a group of young people who thought be was a Jew. He tried to communicate with them in Russian to explain he is a Greek but they also stabbed him. It was in 2007, not 1941.

Police advised him not to walk backstreets ‘with your face and accent like this’ after.


44 posted on 02/20/2014 8:58:53 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: cunning_fish
I have a Greek friend who was beaten in Lvov suburb by a group of young people who thought be was a Jew.

(1) That's a really believable anecdote, thanks.

(2) Of course, there has never been a single anti-Semitic incident by Russian nationalists ever, right?

(3) If your friend exists (which I doubt) and if this incident really happened (which I doubt), does that mean that every single Ukrainian fighting for freedom in Independence Square agrees with such idiots? That they approve? That they would advocate such behavior? Get real.

45 posted on 02/21/2014 4:30:35 AM PST by wideawake
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To: free from tyranny
The good work that Karen Hudes has done - showing the failures of oversight in international banking institutions, and the contradictory rules that have encouraged corruption and malfeasance - is underappreciated.

The quality of her work is a function of her not being an insane, conspiracy-obsessed nutbag. She is an intelligent critic and reformer.

She wouldn't use terms like "international banking cabal" (and all the unsavory implications a loaded term like that carries).

She uses facts, not suppositions. She cites public sources, not a set of imaginary bogeymen in her head.

46 posted on 02/21/2014 4:38:58 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake

>>(1) That’s a really believable anecdote, thanks.<<

?

>>(2) Of course, there has never been a single anti-Semitic incident by Russian nationalists ever, right?<<

Probably. But ‘Russian’ anti-Semitism is historically linked to a territories known as Ukraine and Poland today. Just check a map of pogroms. Modern Russian xenophobia is ugly but mostly aimed at Muslims and Chinese.

>>(3) If your friend exists (which I doubt) and if this incident really happened (which I doubt), does that mean that every single Ukrainian fighting for freedom in Independence Square agrees with such idiots? That they approve? That they would advocate such behavior? Get real.<<

A story is real. No, it doesn’t mean every protestor in Kiev supports it, but a point is there are plenty of jerks like that in Western Ukraine. Just browse the web and you’ll find enough similar stories in the news.


47 posted on 02/21/2014 5:07:28 AM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Iscool

From the comment section:
“We are falling back into hierarchical totalitarianism simply because that´s the natural, least resistance path of organization for any society.Democracy, like a sophisticated production chain, has negative entropy-great energy and care are needed to keep such a superior, complex machine churning out social goods.”


48 posted on 02/21/2014 8:21:05 AM PST by griswold3 (Post-Christian America is living on borrowed moral heritage)
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