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Ukraine Parliament Moves Swiftly to Dismantle Presidentís Government
NYT ^ | FEB. 23, 2014 | By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN

Posted on 02/23/2014 10:39:13 AM PST by 1rudeboy

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To: jjotto

A friend of mine once told me about a friend of his who went for a walk in New York City and got into a conversation with a man sitting on a park bench, who turned out to be Kerensky.


51 posted on 02/23/2014 12:22:09 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: 1rudeboy
An American road map from Ukraine...
52 posted on 02/23/2014 12:41:59 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks ("Say Not the Struggle Naught Availeth.")
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To: Jim Robinson

Half of my family came from Ukraine, back when there was still a Czar.

Those people are tough as nails, and they absolutely refuse to go back to communism, in any form.

God bless ‘em... they met the govthugs in the streets with their OWN riot shields and guts and prevailed.

NEVER BACK DOWN!!!!!!!!


53 posted on 02/23/2014 1:11:53 PM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop

“...I am very proud of the Ukrainians...”

Me too.

Dad’s side, half Ukie here.


54 posted on 02/23/2014 1:12:39 PM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: Jim Robinson

“Resist!!! Do not submit!!! Do not comply!!!”

Amen Jim, Amen.


55 posted on 02/23/2014 1:16:44 PM PST by RKBA Democrat (Liberty in our Lifetime - WWW.FreeStateProject.org)
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To: impimp

To rebel in summer is not to rebel.


56 posted on 02/23/2014 1:21:26 PM PST by RKBA Democrat (Liberty in our Lifetime - WWW.FreeStateProject.org)
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To: RedMDer
That is pretty amazing footage.

I wonder why they don't use those shields to transport people? Made me think of that line from "300": Come back with your shield or on it.

57 posted on 02/23/2014 1:44:05 PM PST by ponygirl (Be Breitbart.)
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To: Revolting cat!

There were irregularities in regards to the last elections to the Ukraine Parliament.

It's as if the forces leaning towards Russia, learned the lesson of not being so blatant in Presidential election, but found an end-around.

Then the constitutional reforms put in place by the previous parliament (remembering here that Ukraine is somewhat new at all of this) were overturned on a technicality, by what passes for Ukraine supreme Court.

The reason that Court gave for overturning the reforms was that itself (that Court) was not brought into process of approval, for the Court claimed the Ukraine Constitution required it.

There was no other reason given,, which indicates the reforms were not otherwise unconstitutional. This came also with there being pressure put on judges, some of which resigned.

The "corrupt oligarchy" you speak of --- does have influence. But those oligarchs got what they have in much the same way the Russians who ended up with control of what was State industry in Russia did.

As an aside--- I was flabbergasted during the times preceding the fall of the Soviet "system". We had commentators in the U.S. saying that the Russian "people" would rise up and embrace self-sufficiency, and even "capitalism" (whatever that is). But who could purchase State industry, in a land where most all Industry was owned and controlled by a State who had long ago become totalitarian but not in a [ahem] good way, as in "holistic", for no State can successfully micromanage unless they have the Power to pick who the winner and losers in any given situation are to be, and is able to enforce that with the power of the gun.

Even George Washington, long before there was idea of "communism" as in Marxist-Leninism or Chinese flavored Maoism knew that all government had inherent evils, for men (mankind itself) was still living in a fallen-from-Grace estate, generally.

Now that Russia has gone through it's phases where they can see that Marxism didn't work (for it did not take well enough into account certain negative aspects of human nature --thinking instead that establishment of so-called worker's utopia would address all ills) they now turn back to "church" and some sense of morality. That can be (and is) a positive development in many regards, yet it is one also borne of a certain desperation, and one that does not appear to be able to upset the Russian business/mobster mentalities, for those entities have co-opted the resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church, using it for mixed political ends (a method of control, as in be with us, your Overlords as we join against those sinners-- over there) with that entity having long been in control of KGB types, with some of those same (KGB) still having as much or more influence upon it, than perhaps vice-versa?

Putin, and the Russia gangster/mob control freaks, now drape themselves with Russia nationalist flag (Russian pride) and the Russian Orthodox pennants at the same time, as they go along trying to figure out what 'government' should be, which for the present time, is themselves against the world.

There are no recent Western parallels for this sort of thing, unless one goes back to the way the pies were divied -up in Europe, when State & church were intermingled.

From the changes away from of rule of kings (and appointed dukes, earls, and what-have-you) came so-called "capitalist" systems (everyman being as king of sorts over his own finances, or at least have some say regarding those, and what else one would chose to believe be best suited to his own interests?) with that word capitalism itself much used as an epithet by Marxists, who claimed that "crony capitalism" was what was going on, or would be the inevitability. But that's what the Russians, and to a large degree the Ukrainians also, ended up with. Their versions of crony capitalism almost make the Western versions (when that is what is in play) appear almost honest. So who is kidding who?

The Marxists more or less said that no man could determine what was in his own interests -- if that conflicted with State group-think. Which interestingly enough, was what the Russian Marxists were bitching about in regards to being ruled over by Czars (kings) and Church in the first place! All they did was change who was in control. Now, they want their kings/church/state combo back, it seems.

2 Corinthians 11

Look at Russia today. Is is not the worst "crony capitalism" outside of Islam, and the Chinese Far East?

Or are men better off to live under rule of "churchy" kings?

Not here in the United States. Only over my dead body...

As to the not-so-churchy would be tyrants -- do we not here on these pages wage a form of rhetorical warfare against them?

Many of us perhaps need to get out more? Yes, but let us have clear enough focus...not all this confusion we've been having...like seeing a Soros-like hand behind every discontented Ukrainian bush. It's simply all, not all that simple.

The world continues to struggle over what form of government is best...while here in the U.S., we seem to be squandering what goodness we once had, even as we've always had criminals & scallywags in public office, along with (thankfully enough) those not so criminal.

It still boils down to individuals needing to be individually born of the spirit of God, even if they need "religious" corporation (church) in order to have that transpire.

Without that new life living within a person -- then all bets are off, the darkness (in whichever form) will prevail.

I put it this way, for regardless of what or how many man-written laws are on the books, if people do not do what is right (even when no one is looking, or when they can get away with "it", or self-justify their own evils) then according to immutable spiritual laws, sins (of all type, not just sexual immorality) will continue to breed even more sin, with the results bringing death in the end, if just the death of peaceableness & honesty.

Our present laws still do reflect this search for and requirement of honesty. But Diogenes is being worn out...

For what? Why hide from that weary traveler? To win for ones self --- a gold encrusted toilet?


58 posted on 02/23/2014 2:01:36 PM PST by BlueDragon (Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.Proverbs 29:18)
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To: dfwgator

Yes...the Tsar was removed by the Mensheviks and the Provisional Govt...it would be some months later that the Bolsheviks took over

With Soros/Obama/EU on the side of the revolutionaries...the supporters of this uprising are going to look foolish in a few months. Just wonder if McCain will find a Ukrainian rebel that ate an opponent on YouTube...like his friend in Syria


59 posted on 02/23/2014 2:02:35 PM PST by SeminoleCounty (Diversity is just racism against white folks)
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To: ponygirl

I’m in a similar boat on this. I’m sympathetic to the Ukrainians standing up to Russian bullying and imperialism. But when the likes of McLame and the European Union are helping them I’m not exactly sure what to think about this.


60 posted on 02/23/2014 2:20:29 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: NFHale

My Father is also Ukrainian. Came over with his parents and brother in ‘48. He was two yeas old at the time.


61 posted on 02/23/2014 2:28:30 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Tre Norner eg ber, binde til rota...)
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To: FreeReign

Putin will sell natural gas to any customer, and having the pipelines running thru a free Ukraine gives the Ukrainians a bargaining chip in the price negotiations.


62 posted on 02/23/2014 2:47:31 PM PST by AnAmericanInEngland
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To: ReformationFan
But when the likes of McLame and the European Union are helping them I’m not exactly sure what to think about this.

I see this opinion a lot: maybe you should ask yourself, whom do you favor?

63 posted on 02/23/2014 2:48:52 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

My immediate reaction would say the Ukrainians(as I would favor the Hungarians in 1956 and the Czechs in 1968 in similar situations against the Russians). But I think I need to be better educated about the dynamics, politics and history of all sides in this scenario before I fully endorse them.


64 posted on 02/23/2014 2:54:46 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: ReformationFan
Well, if it makes it any easier, limit your research to after the Soviet Union is dissolved, because it is no longer the same dynamic.

After the USSR was dissolved, some countries made it happen, some muddled along, and some reverted. Hope that doesn't complicate anything. :)

65 posted on 02/23/2014 2:59:59 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: impimp
Are you saying you are in favor of the Ukranian rebels? Or are you simply saying that civil unrest sometimes yields results?

I tend to be against the protestors as I think if I were a Ukranian I would want my home heated by real Russian natural gas as opposed to the non-existent natural gas that the EU can provide. Of course memories of the 1920s might take a while to fade away...

impimp, have you ever actually been to Ukraine? I was just there 3 months ago. Just 2 weeks before the protests started, I got harrassed by policemen in Maidan for not having my passport on me. My passport was safely locked up in my apartment per intructions on the US State Department website. They were trying to extract a bribe from me to let me go and threatened to arrest me, book me, and make be pay a 1200 Hrivna fine (about $125) that would have put me in the Interpol database and made it more difficult for me to ever enter the country again. They let me go after I followed them to a police station not far from the Maidan when I got out my cell phone and asked if I could make a call. The next day my guide/interpreter had me get a laminated xerox copy of my passport picture and signature page as well as the visa page for me to carry around in the police bothered me again.

In short the whole country was very corrupt including the police. If I were an ordinary citizen there and had to cope with that corruption and the lack of economic opportunity there every day, I think I would have gone over the breaking point long ago. The problem with Russian domination of Ukraine started under the czars and continued under the Soviet Union. BTW Stalin's Holomodor of Ukraine was in the 1930's not the 1920's.

66 posted on 02/23/2014 3:07:26 PM PST by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: NFHale

Bravo and amen!!!


67 posted on 02/23/2014 4:23:48 PM PST by GOPsterinMA (You're a very weird person, Yossarian.)
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To: Jim Robinson; 1rudeboy; impimp; Paleo Conservative; FBD; ponygirl; mac_truck; RedMDer; Jeff Head; ..
My husband and I are on the board of an organization that operates out of an apartment just about 3 miles from Maidan (which translated to English means “Square”. The full Ukrainian name actually means Independence Square).

My husband was at a board meeting (here in the U.S.) the last few days of the week, and while working board business they were also watching in real time events happening while the Americans who live over there and work with Ukrainians gave a lot of insight into the situation.

One neat story is that a friend of theirs has had a prayer for years that Ukrainians would become more united, that people would learn to not fear their neighbors and actually become friends with their neighbors. There was still so much fear and mistrust left over from the Soviet era.

He said that after the events of this week, that prayer was being answered and people were actually smiling and talking to their neighbors, hugging each other and not afraid! They were also crying together. There was a funeral in the Maidan for the many, many who had died, it was just a non-stop event for 24 hours, of singing, tears and speeches – really moving.

The American friends were interpreting a little of the speeches – it was really amazing. Yulia Tymoshenko as everyone knows, was released from prison. She had been badly beaten many times, and is now in a wheelchair. She was a good president. She had put many Christians into cabinet posts and was trying to clean up corruption. She spoke at the funeral service and praised the Ukrainians, saying that “they (the average people who worked together to win the battle) were the real heroes.”

Another neat thing is that the Orthodox priests and other pastors in Kiev have been wonderful. They are using a big orthodox church in downtown Kiev as a makeshift hospital, and they are allowing them to bring the wounded in to the cathedral, and all are working together to gather food, medicine and other help.

The priests and pastors, and leaders of Maidan are also urging everyone not to vindictively seek revenge. Hold criminals accountable, yes, but not to bitterly extend the violence for revenge.

One example is that one of the instances where it was reported that the protesters had “kidnapped” some of the police was completely mis-reported. A lot of the police were young kids that Yanuvich had brough in from poor regions of Ukraine, who were desparate for jobs and money. The Maidan people had captured a group of these "police", but they didn’t kidnap them, they turned the bus around and sent it back to their hometown! That is a lot of mercy for these kids who had been really brutal to them in other situations.

I truly believe, in contrast to many of the cynical on FR, that this is a true revolution (or maybe counter-revolution?) of ordinary people who just want to be free of this corrupt government, not a movement fueled by the NWO, or Nazis,or Muslims, or John McCain or other theories. They have been oppressed for decades, first by Soviets, then by Nazis, then by Soviets again, and finally by these mafia/oligarchs who are really just the old corrupt Soviet elites under a different name. Even though they were “officially” not part of the Soviet Union, they had still not completely thrown off the bonds of those days.

Not to say some bad elements won’t try to take advantage of the somewhat chaotic situation right now.I'm sure there are many on the fringes just hoping to find a way to corrupt the system to benefit and put themselves into power.

I ask Freepers to please pray for Ukraine, that they would continue showing mercy, that they would really have free and fair elections,that they would have wisdom and find really honest people to represent them, and that Putin wont try to re-enact 1956 Hungary.

Here is a good article:

On the Maidan, the birth of a real Ukrainian civil society
The Maidan, therefore, has not spawned a civil war, but the birth of an authentic Ukrainian civil society. It is the culmination of an agonizing 20-year process of de-Sovietization of Ukrainian society, a process that has progressed faster in some regions than in others. The Maidan is a watershed moment, when the nation shed the mental chains of Soviet paternalism. One opposition leader described the statues of Lenin being spontaneously hauled down around the country as Ukraine’s psychological Berlin Wall. It is characterized by a shift in mentality – a distrust of all of the country’s institutions, including political parties, governing or opposition.

68 posted on 02/23/2014 4:23:49 PM PST by boxlunch (Psalm 2)
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To: boxlunch

awesome post. Thank You


69 posted on 02/23/2014 4:42:54 PM PST by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: boxlunch

Thank you very much for that report. Prayers for Ukraine.
For their freedom and from any outside influence that may not have the best interest of the people as their motivation.


70 posted on 02/23/2014 4:43:06 PM PST by RedMDer (May we always be happy and may our enemies always know it. - Sarah Palin, 10-18-2010)
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To: ponygirl

[ I don’t know about all of this.

I was all in favor...and then this morning I saw that John McCain had been over there in the middle of the protests.

I do not trust that man or his puppet masters. ]

I worry too, about all that NGO money coming into there and EU money and the influence from pooty poot...

I don;t really much like either side the situation seems to be tilting towards, I don;t trust the EU and I don;t trust Russia either...


71 posted on 02/23/2014 4:47:06 PM PST by GraceG
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To: Berlin_Freeper

[ Yanukovych hiding in a bunker?...
with 650 million dollars in cash. ]

He forgot Prepper Rule #1...

the only metals that help in a bunker are brass and lead...


72 posted on 02/23/2014 4:48:05 PM PST by GraceG
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To: GraceG
the only metals that help in a bunker are brass and lead...

I bet gold would be an acceptable substitute for lead if one were to run out of lead.

73 posted on 02/23/2014 4:51:04 PM PST by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: RedMDer
brave indeed, starting at the 12:00 mark there are numerous dead/wounded near the tree with the the band, from then on i counted 10 that i SAW get hit and they carried off another 15-20 anyway and were still carrying them off or tending to the wounded at the end of the video...

all prolly shot by the same sniper, no more than 2-3 max

i wish they would of started burning tires much sooner screen the rescuers and the wounded as they were carried to safer ground

74 posted on 02/23/2014 5:25:55 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: Chode
Most of those folks had no training, no combat experience, and no real gear to work with.

Their bravery cannot be understated. They did what they could with what they had.

I feel ashamed thinking we do so little by comparison.

75 posted on 02/23/2014 5:30:04 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Tre Norner eg ber, binde til rota...)
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To: Jim Robinson

HIP, HIP!


76 posted on 02/23/2014 5:31:28 PM PST by prairiebreeze (Don't be afraid to see what you see. -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: Dead Corpse
100%!!! wasn't disparaging them in the least... it was a real killing ground for sure
77 posted on 02/23/2014 5:40:04 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: impimp; Jim Robinson
I tend to be against the protestors as I think if I were a Ukranian I would want my home heated by real Russian natural gas as opposed to the non-existent natural gas that the EU can provide.

Everyone has a price. It appears that yours is the price to heat your home.

Obviously you never read the history of our Colonial troops suffering though the winter of 1777 without heat... or shoes.

If I had to go without heat for 5 years just to get rid of Obama and his commie administration, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Maybe since I live in Southern California it might be more of a burden to give up air conditioning, but I'd give up both and more.

Pray that this revolution is like ours. Liberty or death!

78 posted on 02/23/2014 5:48:10 PM PST by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds)
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To: Chode

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that you were. Opposite actually. Was adding my own thoughts and feelings.

FReegards...


79 posted on 02/23/2014 6:01:36 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Tre Norner eg ber, binde til rota...)
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To: Jim Robinson
 photo ttreadonme_zpscfc19ff3.gif

80 posted on 02/23/2014 6:05:48 PM PST by vox_freedom (America is being tested as never before in its history. May God help us.)
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To: Dead Corpse
yup... no worries, and i agree with you 100%
81 posted on 02/23/2014 6:37:00 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: boxlunch

Live streaming video links for information about Ukraine

http://onlinemaidan.com/


82 posted on 02/23/2014 7:10:48 PM PST by FBD
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To: Jim Robinson
There's a reason behind the sharp spike in NICS Background Checks since 2008.
83 posted on 02/23/2014 7:23:19 PM PST by DTogo (High time to bring back The Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: Jim Robinson

Indeed. Buuuuump!


84 posted on 02/23/2014 7:31:19 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: boxlunch

Thank you for that link. It certainly sheds a lot of light on things. Makes me think John McCain is over there trying to jump in front of the parade and tell everyone he is leading it.


85 posted on 02/23/2014 8:31:14 PM PST by ponygirl (Be Breitbart.)
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To: Jim Robinson; All
And that, my friends, is a pretty good example of how the people overcome tyranny.


86 posted on 02/23/2014 8:37:41 PM PST by FBD
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To: boxlunch

Great post, btw! :-)


87 posted on 02/23/2014 8:39:47 PM PST by FBD
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To: Paleo Conservative

Great to hear from someone who has been there!


88 posted on 02/23/2014 8:41:50 PM PST by FBD
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To: Jim Robinson

“Obviously we don’t know where this is going to lead, but step one was getting rid of the corrupt government. “

I’m certain a lot of Frenchmen said the same thing in 1793, and so did a lot of Russians in 1917...I hope FREEDOM wins!


89 posted on 02/23/2014 8:52:07 PM PST by Frank_2001
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To: FBD; impimp; boxlunch; Jim Robinson; 1rudeboy; Paleo Conservative; ponygirl; mac_truck; RedMDer; ...
Great to hear from someone who has been there!

Thanks!

I actually saw the protesters from just across Khreshchatyk street when I returned to Kiev from Odessa the night before I returned to the US. What's really sobering is that I received an email Saturday night from my guide/translator with links to some pictures of the aftermath of the protests. In one of them were the bodies of 2 dead men with their faces covered with tarps. The photographer was standing within feet of where I was hassled by the Kiev police in early November.

90 posted on 02/23/2014 9:39:55 PM PST by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: 1rudeboy

He privatized the state owned mansion. Obama could privatize the white house and half the people in this country would approve and all but a few republicans would remain silent.


91 posted on 02/24/2014 12:05:37 AM PST by VerySadAmerican (".....Barrack, and the horse Mohammed rode in on.")
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To: Jim Robinson

note also that despite the Russian claims of weapons in the hands of the opposition, there were next to none. The people used the power of right


92 posted on 02/24/2014 2:50:49 AM PST by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: GeronL

Were you a fan of the “Arab Spring” too? Save me the rhetoric.


93 posted on 02/24/2014 4:39:27 AM PST by impimp
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To: Dead Corpse

Tough people. They generally are good-natured, happy folk but don’t piss them off.

My dad’s side got here in the 1902/3 time frame.


94 posted on 02/24/2014 5:36:41 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: GOPsterinMA

Roger that, my brother.


95 posted on 02/24/2014 5:37:50 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: NFHale

They missed the Holodomor then. Good.

My Grandmother lost her entire family, supposedly. We don’t really know as there aren’t any surviving records. She would have been around 10 at the time...


96 posted on 02/24/2014 6:32:03 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Tre Norner eg ber, binde til rota...)
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To: Dead Corpse

According to my old man (way back when I was a kid, he passed away when I was 15) we had actual Cossack ancestors...

RE Holodomor: Yeah, Stalin was real good at killing... as all Socialists are. He made Hitler look like a rank amateur. He killed 25 million in Ukraine alone by starvation.

Too bad someone didn’t put a 12x power scope on his temple from a couple hundred yards and spare the world...


97 posted on 02/24/2014 6:36:15 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: Dead Corpse; All

Here’s a good article on the Holodomor.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4656-holodomor-the-secret-holocaust-in-ukraine

All: “Holodomor” refers to Stalin and his communists’ intentional murder of Ukrainian citizens by forced starvation.


98 posted on 02/24/2014 6:47:18 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: NFHale

:)


100 posted on 02/24/2014 7:20:40 AM PST by GOPsterinMA (You're a very weird person, Yossarian.)
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