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Opinion: What the West owes Ukraine
CNN ^ | February 25, 2014 | Timothy Snyder

Posted on 02/26/2014 1:00:53 PM PST by No One Special

A true revolution doesn't come every day. The word "revolution" appears all around us, in commercial advertisements and political propaganda, until it seems to have lost all meaning.

The most minor tumult, the smallest change, and immediately we pronounce the word. And so when the real thing arrives, with tyranny and blood, with masses striving for freedom, with an ancient regime destroyed and a new one born, we might just fail to see its significance.

The spark that began the revolution was something called Europe: a trade agreement with the European Union that many Ukrainians saw as a chance to enter a world of free trade rather than government syndicates, and the rule of law rather than overwhelming corruption. When President Viktor Yanukovych, after months of promised, rejected the deal in November, Ukrainians protested.

The students were the first to reach the "Maidan," the main square of Kiev. They are the ones who already considered themselves Europeans, and took a European future for granted. After the riot police were sent to beat them, they were joined by the "Afghans," the veterans of the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Then came the businessmen, the professionals, the people who had hoped to make an honest living, but found themselves thwarted by unpredictable taxes and corruption. In December, hundreds of thousands of people, from all parts of the country and all walks of life, were on the streets.

Then Russian President Vladimir Putin appeared with a proposal. Why not take 15 billion euros from Russia instead of playing around with Europe? Although the Russian side promised that the loan was without conditions, Russian leaders then explained that disbursements could only follow when political stability had been established.

In January, President Yanukovych formally did away with basic freedoms. A package of legislation introduced by a...

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: ukraine
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Timothy Snyder is Housum professor of history at Yale University and author of "Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin."
1 posted on 02/26/2014 1:00:53 PM PST by No One Special
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To: No One Special

The U.S. owes nothing to Ukraine. Whatever money is put in there will be stolen, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.

$16 Trillion in debt is enough.


2 posted on 02/26/2014 1:05:57 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: No One Special

“The West” owes nothing. Ukraine’s neighbors (the U.S. is not one) can feel free to step in and help their neighbor if they desire.
“The West” needs to mind its own collective business. Every time (EVERY TIME) “The West” gets involved, another dictator takes the reigns. “The West” (especially the United States) needs to let Ukraine and every other country sort out their own damn problems.


3 posted on 02/26/2014 1:08:54 PM PST by CPONav
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To: No One Special

We owe it to ourselves to not light off WWIII by injecting ourselves into Russia’s backyard, and a former Soviet state.


4 posted on 02/26/2014 1:09:54 PM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: No One Special
The spark that began the revolution was something called Europe: a trade agreement with the European Union that many Ukrainians saw as a chance to enter a world of free trade rather than government syndicates, and the rule of law rather than overwhelming corruption

LOL. The Ukrainians should have looked to Spain, Greece, Hungry, and Cyprus to see what happens when a country hands over its sovereignty to the sodomite EU.

5 posted on 02/26/2014 1:15:07 PM PST by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: No One Special

Sure. Turn the whole thing over to Kerry’s State Department. Do we really hate the Ukrainians that much?


6 posted on 02/26/2014 1:17:21 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: No One Special

I don’t anything that comes from CNN or this professor, but when they said students, and then Afghans, my tin foil antennas started twitching...something smells like community organizing. Plus, what happened to all that gold in the palace? The president escaped in a helicopter. Tons of it? Why do they need an infusion of cash?


7 posted on 02/26/2014 1:23:17 PM PST by Ms. Blunt
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To: FReepers

Click The Pic To Donate

The Great rule of conduct for us,
in regard to foreign Nations
is in extending our commercial relations
to have with them as little political connection as possible.
So far as we have already formed engagements
let them be fulfilled, with perfect good faith.
Here let us stop. . . .
George Washington on Foreign Affairs September 19, 1796

8 posted on 02/26/2014 1:26:49 PM PST by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule them all)
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To: No One Special

Hmmmm ... some pretty disappointing responses.


9 posted on 02/26/2014 1:34:34 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Billthedrill

And do the bidding of their big brother just like we did after the Holodomor when we gave the USSR diplomatic relations. Try reading the article.


10 posted on 02/26/2014 1:35:04 PM PST by No One Special
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To: Belteshazzar

Disinfo works.


11 posted on 02/26/2014 1:35:59 PM PST by No One Special
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To: No One Special

Try reading my reply. I agree with you, or I did. Now you can kiss it.


12 posted on 02/26/2014 1:36:24 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: No One Special

“Disinfo works.”

Yes, sadly, it does.


13 posted on 02/26/2014 1:37:00 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Billthedrill

BilltheDrill, I said “some pretty disappointing responses,” rather than all, because of your response. That said, perhaps, you should assume that the reply of the original poster was made in haste.


14 posted on 02/26/2014 1:42:28 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: No One Special

Our so-called leader should be more concerned about Venezuela then the Ukraine but he’s Hugo Chivez’s lover.


15 posted on 02/26/2014 1:43:47 PM PST by Vinylly
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To: Belteshazzar

My apologies. Short-tempered today. I happen to hold the Ukrainians in very high regard.


16 posted on 02/26/2014 1:43:58 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Belteshazzar

Yeah.

Who would have expected rationality here at Free Republic?

The liberal press asserts that conservatives are for any war any time.
They lied to you again, there have to be merits outweighing the disadvantages.

No sale on Ukraine interference.


17 posted on 02/26/2014 1:47:27 PM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Belteshazzar
Hmmmm ... some pretty disappointing responses.

Try using some IMF brain wash...4 out of 5 European central bankers recommend it.

18 posted on 02/26/2014 1:49:58 PM PST by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: Billthedrill

Holding them in high regard does not magically create a new Eurasia that won’t be destabilized by clumsy Islam centered American interventon managed by Odumbo.


19 posted on 02/26/2014 1:50:09 PM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

So, there is no position to be taken between doing nothing and war?


20 posted on 02/26/2014 1:53:14 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: No One Special

Free Trade?

Is THAT what they saw?

How about Gay “Rights”?

How about Muslims taking over your major cities?

How about economic collapse?

How about destruction of Christianity?

The EU should die - as quickly as possible.


21 posted on 02/26/2014 1:53:23 PM PST by ZULU (Magua is sitting in the Oval Office. Ted Cruz/Phil Robertson in 2016.)
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To: mac_truck

Also, did I advocate IMF involvement? Can you show me where I did?


22 posted on 02/26/2014 1:54:02 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Billthedrill

You agree with me if you recognize that Ukraine needs help and you want to see them get help.

Neither the editorial’s author or myself hate Ukrainians.


23 posted on 02/26/2014 2:02:03 PM PST by No One Special
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To: No One Special

I see Ukranian Nazis fighting ethnic Russian nazis fighting Communists.

Can’t say I care who wins.


24 posted on 02/26/2014 2:02:34 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: Vinylly; No One Special
Our so-called leader should be more concerned about Venezuela then the Ukraine but he’s Hugo Chivez’s lover.

Yuck! You mean Obama is a necrophile too!

25 posted on 02/26/2014 2:07:04 PM PST by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: No One Special

The only time the media dropped the ball on the “revolution” word when it was fully appropriate was when Barry was sworn in.


26 posted on 02/26/2014 2:21:01 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: MeanWestTexan

My goodness, you see things so clearly.

One question: Do you actually know any Ukrainians?


27 posted on 02/26/2014 2:43:58 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: No One Special

What we owe the Ukranians is thanks for giving us a preview of how events are likely to unfold here in the USA. Substitute “Obama” for “Yanukovych” and “Xi Jinping” for “Vladimir Putin”. Coming soon to a neighborhood near you!


28 posted on 02/26/2014 2:51:57 PM PST by bopdowah ("Unlike King Midas, whatever the Gubmint touches sure don't turn to Gold!')
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To: Belteshazzar

The ones that so willingly collaborated with Nazis and murdered my family are enough.


29 posted on 02/26/2014 2:57:29 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: ZULU

There is no question in my mind that the Ukrainians were simply mistaken. They did not understand that Putin, and Russia, their benevolent neighbors, only meant the very best for them. And if anyone could make the trains run on time . . . Vladi would.


30 posted on 02/26/2014 3:36:07 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: No One Special
The real story.


31 posted on 02/26/2014 3:37:44 PM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: No One Special

Let the two countries break themselves up into East and West:

give Russia the entry to a port on the Black Sea, let the Easterners have entry to a port on the Black sea, then have the ability to run their own country. Allow cross border immigration across the new border for ten years

Gee, maybe I should write to John “effin” with my settlement.


32 posted on 02/26/2014 3:54:42 PM PST by Noob1999 (Loose Lips, Sink Ships)
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To: No One Special

Where does one find truth in an article written by a leftist Yale professor for one of the premier neo-Nazi propaganda media outlets called CNN?


33 posted on 02/26/2014 4:04:48 PM PST by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave

Same place most Russians look . . . up their ass.


34 posted on 02/26/2014 4:25:33 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: MeanWestTexan

I see. So all subsequent generations are, by association of ethnicity, guilty of the crimes of that generation? Well, I hope you hate all Germans equally as well. That will sure help humanity.

By that token all blacks in the USA should hate you as well ... and all Cherokee, Lakota, Cheyenne, etc. etc. etc.

Enjoy your morality.


35 posted on 02/26/2014 4:49:45 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: sergeantdave
A little taste of his book, "Bloodlands - Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" can be found here and here.

The fiirst is the author's site and the second is a partial review by Ta-Nehisi Coates. This is where I got the following passage from the book about the Holodomor:

Survival was a moral as well as a physical struggle. A woman doctor wrote to a friend in June 1933 that she had not yet become a cannibal, but was “not sure that I shall not be one by the time my letter reaches you.” The good people died first. Those who refused to steal or to prostitute themselves died. Those who gave food to others died. Those who refused to eat corpses died. Those who refused to kill their fellow man died. Parents who resisted cannibalism died before their children did.

I found some truth in it and would not characterize it as ideologically driven in any way whatsoever.

We all have our blind spots.

Hope this helps.

36 posted on 02/26/2014 5:05:30 PM PST by No One Special
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To: No One Special

Appreciate your synopsis of the situation as you see it.

I’ll check it out tomorrow.

Semper fi, FRiend.


37 posted on 02/26/2014 5:22:07 PM PST by sergeantdave
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To: Belteshazzar

The best path for the people of Ukraine is independence.

There are zero people trying to maneuver them into an alliance with either the Russians or the EU who do not have an agenda detrimental to the Ukrainians.

They have all kind of dishonest but transparent excuses to try to argue for pushing them one way or another.


38 posted on 02/26/2014 6:09:56 PM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

You are probably right, but it will be a very difficult path.


39 posted on 02/26/2014 6:53:38 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Count of Monte Fisto
The insolvency of Greece, Spain, Cyprus etc. are not the fault of the EU. It's their own fault. The EU is imposing unpopular austerity measures. Because of Yanukovich’s corruption and embezzlement of billions Ukraine is on the verge of bankruptcy and the new government is already talking about the unpopular measures they will have to take to stabilize the economy after the gangster criminal Yanukovich has ruined it so badly.
Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk warns of 'unpopular steps' ahead - February 26, 2014 - "We are to undertake extremely unpopular steps as the previous government and previous president were so corrupted that the country is in a desperate financial plight," Mr Yatsenyuk told the BBC after the cabinet was announced.

40 posted on 02/26/2014 8:27:04 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
“The U.S. owes nothing to Ukraine.”

That's true, the thing is that Russia really lost the cold war, they didn't give it up voluntarily, they really lost and are getting ready for 2.0. They still have thousands of nukes, they have a lot of oil & gas money, they are upgrading their army at rapid speed, what they are missing is large population, that's why they are trying to get back ex-Soviet republics. They already have Belarus, Kazakhstan and Armenia add to that 46 million Ukrainians and the cold war 2.0 is on even If Obama tattoo “reset with Russia” on his forehead and then we will see a lot of nasty stuff, for example proxy wars (like Korea and Vietnam) going on across the world for next decades, so helping Ukraine is much cheaper solution. Of course it should be made clear that any cash pipeline will be shut down immediately if the government keep stealing public funds.

41 posted on 02/27/2014 12:16:56 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
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To: ZULU
“How about Gay “Rights”?”

Many EU member states are much less pro-homo than America is. In places like Holland, for some reason people just are pro-homo, they would be like that with or without EU.

42 posted on 02/27/2014 12:20:19 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
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To: No One Special
The Ukraine has a tremendous wealth of natural resources, mining and manufacturing industries, and agricultural industries.

They owe it to themselves to be self-sufficient. The rest of the world needs to mind their own business.

43 posted on 02/27/2014 12:27:28 AM PST by meadsjn
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To: MrEdd
“The best path for the people of Ukraine is independence.”

Yes but at the moment Russia has huge influence over Ukraine, closer ties (no full membership, it is totally unrealistic in short and medium term) with EU would counterbalance that and actually make them more independent. “Ukraine should stay independent/they should stay away from homo EU” is the line of Putinists and in practice it means “Ukraine should stay under Russian boot”.

44 posted on 02/27/2014 12:31:01 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246

Yes, but the EU appears gto be promoting this kind of social agenda, no? Where in Europe are they not wedded to this pro-homosexual agenda?


45 posted on 02/27/2014 7:38:53 AM PST by ZULU (Magua is sitting in the Oval Office. Ted Cruz/Phil Robertson in 2016.)
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To: Belteshazzar

” see. So all subsequent generations are, by association of ethnicity, guilty of the crimes of that generation? Well, I hope you hate all Germans equally as well. That will sure help humanity.”

Oh, give me a break.

The Ukrainian “protestors” are holding up the old fascists flags and doing Nazi salutes.

Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” — purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”

Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.

Copying the Nazis linking the Commies with Jewish people, the movement leaders release a message to the “Jewish Elders and Bankers” to talk to the former president and get him to step down since “they are the only people he listens to.”

In short, these guys aren’t internet Nazis. They’re the real thing.

There is no more a “good side” to this than there is a “good side” to the Syrian mess.

If you think there is a “good side,” you’re either a commie, a Nazi, or stupid.

Which are you?


46 posted on 02/27/2014 8:58:10 AM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: Belteshazzar

Ah, you are disappointed.

What do YOU propose “the West” should do when Russian tanks roll into Kiev? And what do you mean by “the West”, anyway?

There are three military forces of consequence in Western Europe.

One - Germany. Nuff said. Germans won’t head East for five hundred years.

Two - The UK. Disarming as fast as possible. No logistical capability.

Three - Barack Obama’s military.

My advice to the Ukranians is to make nice with Russia and pray. The alternative, for them, is really bad.


47 posted on 02/27/2014 9:09:07 AM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Belteshazzar
So, there is no position to be taken between doing nothing and war?

Sure, there are many options, all of which can be summarized as pansy-ass pissing and moaning.

Either Putin will invade, or he won't (this is unknown to all of us right now).

If he is determined to invade, bravado from the lips of John Kerry and Susan Power make that outcome MORE likely, not less. If he wants to stay out, we need to do nothing.

Despite all the Western fantasies which have sprouted like weeds since 1945, the only possible outcomes of war are winning and losing. Putin holds all the cards of a military nature in this situation, AND he has complete freedom of action.

Nothing we do or say will change that - no matter how many gay hosts NBC has on their "news" programs, no matter how may "human rights" bloviators write position papers.

If we stay the hell away from it, Ukraine and Russia have a chance to re-equilibrate without a lot of dead bodies.

48 posted on 02/27/2014 9:15:41 AM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Belteshazzar; MeanWestTexan

“Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Urged Jews to Flee Kiev After Attack on Students”

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/02/21/chief-rabbi-of-ukraine-urges-jews-to-flee-kiev-after-attack-on-students/

FTA:

“One of Ukraine’s Chief Rabbis, Moshe Reuven Asman, urged Jews to leave capital city Kiev following a reported anti-Semitic attack on two Chabad yeshiva students in the city last month, Israeli daily Ma’ariv reported.

“I told my community to get out of the city and if possible out of the state…there are many warnings about planned attacks against Jewish institutions,” Asman said, adding, “We have been told by the Israeli Embassy to not go outside.”

Many members of Kiev’s Jewish community live within walking distance of the main square in the city that has recently become the focus of anti-government riots, according to Ma’ariv.”

++++++++++++++++

Yeah, these guys are peaceful, loving, wonderful and have no hatred of Jewish people.

The fact that they are attacking Jewish people is just coincidental and has nothing to do with the Waffen SS flags they are flying.


49 posted on 02/27/2014 9:20:52 AM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
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To: MeanWestTexan

OK, so you are going to school me in Eastern European anti-semitism? Do you think I don’t know that it has been a huge problem for centuries? Do you think I don’t know that it is still a problem, with Ukraine, Belorus, Russia, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, etc.? Do you think I haven’t been there, seen it and heard it, and many times? People are so twisted - all people! - that they find it convenient to blame all the bad consequences they see around them on a particular set of people, always, of course, excusing themselves from culpability. This is part of the human condition - it used to called sin, before we all got so sophisticated - that so besets us all.

Of course, none of the phrases you put within quotations were from me. Those are only things you would like to put in my mouth, so you can bravely slay the straw man you have constructed.

I simply find your argument to be of a piece with the very thing you condemn. But I will not accuse you of being “a commie, a Nazi, or stupid,” as you did me. If you choose to be blind to human nature as it is, that is your affair. If you choose to remain on the side of cynicism and fatalism, again that is your choice.

Oh, do I know some Ukrainians who are as warped as you think? Yes, sadly, I do. But I know quite a few more Ukrainians who are decidedly not what you seem in the fever swamps of your mind to think of all of them.

OK, now you can readjust your filtered glasses and go on seeing the world as you desire to do so, assigning evil to those you choose.


50 posted on 02/27/2014 10:12:34 AM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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