Skip to comments.Jackson Doughart: Stumbling into an ethnic quagmire in Ukraine
Posted on 02/28/2014 5:14:25 PM PST by jimbo123
The argument over foreign intervention has become so radically simplified, so founded on theories and principles and ignorant of facts, that it has lost all grasp of reality. There is no better example of this than the present calamity in Ukraine, where Western internationalists have juxtaposed their narrow conceptions of liberal democracy and human rights onto a conflict that has little to do with either.
Whats really at stake here is a long history of ethnic division. Yet few commentators on the issue mention that Ukraine is not solely populated by Ukrainian nationals. The eastern and southern regions are populated by ethnic Russians, who speak Russian, identify with their co-ethnics in the motherland to the east, and are Orthodox Christians by confession. The ethnic Ukrainians, in contrast, speak the Ukrainian language, identify as a distinct nationality, and adhere mostly to Ukrainian Catholicism, a form of Christianity which observes the rite of Greek Orthodoxy while maintaining full communion with the Holy See.
The All-Ukrainian Union Svoboda, an ultra-nationalist party, holds 8% of the seats in the parliament for the entire country, and thus represents a much larger minority among the ethnic Ukrainians. The partys stronghold is the western city of Lviv, which is home to numerous monuments to Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists during the Second World War, a Nazi collaborator, and a participant in the mass murder of Ukrainian Jews.
The Svoboda claims descent from Bandera, and just last month held a march in his honour. The partys leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, has announced in the Ukrainian parliament that the country is secretly controlled by a Jewish mafia.
(Excerpt) Read more at fullcomment.nationalpost.com ...
My heart aches for the Ukrainians as much as it aches for us in Texas, under Battleground TX assault.
I simply don’t have enough vacation stored up to go help them fight. There was a common door note posted in the war between the states..’Gone to Texas’. I wish i could give it all up and put a note on the door ‘Gone to the Ukraine, back later’.
My great grandfather was a Jew from eastern Europe and appears to have lived in several countries before he came here at 12 years old.
Between shifting borders and ethnic violence that whole region has had few extended periods of real peace.
You do not want to go to Ukraine to fight on the side of the Bandera Nazis and you don’t want to fight on the side of the Russians either. It’s going to get ugly when the Nationalists start hurling their molotov cocktails at anyone who speaks Russian and looks Jewish. And you definitely don’t want to be caught in the crossfire when the Russians go after the Bandera Nazis.
The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow. - Stepan Bandera - a Ukrainian nationalist leader.
Just from a Goebbels book. And anyone surprised why Russians are so suspicious towards Ukrainian freedom fighters?
When Quebec becomes part of France, maybe I can listen to this idiotic argument.
Russian troops are on the ground in the Ukraine. They took two airports and have been flying in transports of more troops. They are there and Putin has outmaneuvered the weak Obama and the EU. Even as Obama and Kerry continue to drone on about, “You better not do this,” Putin has already done it. So what do we do to keep all of Ukraine from falling in a a domino effect and eastern Europe being dominated by Russia?
1) Immediately have the US and the EU confer with Ukraine and tell them to NOT attack the Russian troops in the Crimea. Have them immediately mobilize their forces to their borders and take up positions and prepare and make any further Russian aggression have to come through their prepared positions. Right now the Crimea is lost, and attacking them there will only invite a much larger invasion and the potential loss of all of the Ukraine.
2) The US should immediately start flying C-17s into Kiev (the Ukraine Capitol) loaded with advisors, provisions, trainers, and a a security force for those people. We cannot get enough people there to stop Putin at this point, but we can show him that the price for taking the Ukraine has now gone up and would be too steep for him.
3) Have the NATO and Euopean countries (Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain) do the same thing (Number 2) at other critical points throughout the Ukraine.
4) Immediately move to make the rest of the Ukraine a part of NATO.
5) Hasten the Ukraine’s entry into the EU.
These measures will block Putin now, and hold him where he is with the gains he has made. It is not likely that the Ukraine will get the Crimea back, no more than Georgia will got its two lost provinces back. But we can limit the damage and build a strong coalition of the Baltic States, Poland, Hungary , Slovakia, the Czech Republic and western Europe to stop Russia where it is.
Otherwise we may see the whole of the Ukraine go over...and that would bne the first step in a process for Russia to once again establish a buffer between itself and western Europe.
Folks, when you elect a man who sat with the Russian Prime Minister Medvedev, just before the 2012 Elections, and told him...when he thought he was off microphone...that after the elections, he, Obama, “would be a lot more flexible,” with Putin...this is what you get.
We need to neuter this guy politically in 2014, and then run he and his ilk out of the White House for good in 2016. If we do not, things will get worse...much worse.
When Russia had Ukraine, they forced Russians to move there and Ukrainians were forced to move. Russia did that to other countries they took over, especially Estonia and Latvia. Most of the countries they took over (with the help of FDR and Truman) Russia made the national nationalities (like Estonians) into minorities.
Jeff, I do not desire our nation to become involved in Ukraine. putin has made his move and it is and was a bold one. obama has rattled his sword and sword rattling has a way of causing people to die. I truly believe that if obama does not watch his step we could be quickly on a very slippery slope. I want NATO to stay on the sidelines and allow our Military to rest and regroup. I would like to see EU do the same. Convince me I'm wrong, please.
Most Ukrainians aren't Nazis.
“Russia ready to help Ukraine’s economy: Kerry”
“If there is an explanation for the political killing perpetrated in eastern Europe in the 1930s and 1940s, historian Snyder roots it in agriculture. Stalin wanted to collectivize farmers; Hitler wanted to eliminate them so Germans could colonize the land. The dictators wielded frightening power to advance such fantasies toward reality, and the despots toted up about 14 million corpses between them, so stupefying a figure that Snyder sets himself three goals here: to break down the number into the various actions of murder that comprise it, from liquidation of the kulaks to the final solution; to restore humanity to the victims via surviving testimony to their fates; and to deny Hitler and Stalin any historical justification for their policies, which at the time had legions of supporters and have some even today.”
Jeff, your plan of action makes sense. Though, I wonder at its consequences. Once, it would've been certain to cause Putin and Russia to halt in place. Now, though, it's only a probability -- maybe 75-80%.
Because, if Putin continues to impinge on Ukraine, say, in the Donetsk, there's not a damn thing we or NATO can do about it. Only the Ukrainian forces in the field would have any credibility.
The question would still be how far does Putin want to push it?
No sale! Uninformed article presenting the Russian point of view. Yes, Bandera’s organization participated in the murder of Jews. And not only of Jews. 160,000 Poles, Armenians, Hungarians and Romanians as well. They are now a minority on Maidan, and the revolution has support in Poland and Hungary despite the Bandera crimes. These propagandists think that it’s enough to mention “Jews” to turn the supporters of whatever, Ukrainian uprising or New Coke, into enemies!
The Ukrainian army is terrible and poorly trained and equipped. They’re not going to fight the Russians for the Ukrainian Nationalists. The Western Ukraine Bandera Nazis are the ones who want war with Russia and have been preparing for this since World War II ended.
Sooner or later this was bound to happen. World history shows us that no country with a diverse population of different races, languages, and religion has long survived.
Countries dont naturally form with a diverse population, and when in the past theyve occurred its usually been as a result of armed conquest. These unnaturally formed countries have either melded together into a single population made up of one mixed race with one language and one religion or theyve come apart, and theyve usually come apart with extreme violence. The longer these diverse populations are forced to coexist with one another without mixing and becoming one, the more the hatred grows among them and the more violently they break apart, but break apart they will, or genocide will settle the issue once and for all.
The Bandera followers are the vast majority of the ones with the molotov cocktails, the looted police weapons, the stockpiles of rocks in all the cities and towns not under Russian control. And they want to fight everyone, not just the Russians and Jews.
You're a regular one-note samba...
It’s true. And the ancesters of the Bandera Nazis have been fighting over that land since the days of Atilla the Hun.
Full source please.
“4) Immediately move to make the rest of the Ukraine a part of NATO.”
I don’t think the world is ready for a nuclear war.
Putin will not even try to take Western Ukraine. It cannot be done without Stalin at the helm, and without battle-ready troops that just came back after taking Berlin. That's what it took last time, in 1945, to defeat OUN and more or less pacify Western Ukraine.
Russia only can take control over the Eastern Ukraine. The population there is largely Russian already, or at least bilingual. The people there do not want a revolution every few years; they do not want corrupted bureaucrats (though Russia is not exactly a solution to that) and, most importantly, they do not want to be locked in a poor country that has limited resources, not much money, and practically no future as part of the EU. They will pick Russia as a lesser evil, and probably it would be a good decision for them. Western Ukraine has to be left to pure Ukrainians, who will be free to live as they want.
1) Immediately have the US and the EU confer with Ukraine and tell them to NOT attack the Russian troops in the Crimea.
At this point Ukraine does not have armed forces that could try to do that. The military was silent during the violence in Kiev. They will not interfere in any way. Besides, soldiers and officers are Ukrainians too, and they know what they want for themselves. If the change is gradual enough, and if it is properly supported politically (such as by election of right people who then immediately say the right words) then there isn't much that the army can do, unless laurels of Augusto Pinochet become very appealing to some general. (There are no such generals in Ukraine.)
2) The US should immediately start flying C-17s into Kiev (the Ukraine Capitol) loaded with advisors, provisions, trainers, and a a security force for those people.
That would be seen as occupation by many Ukrainians. Remember, Yanukovich was elected with something like 55% to 45%. Kiev is full of people who do not support the new government. Also, the police forces are pretty much gone by now, so any attack on US workers will not be investigated. There is a lot of serious firearms floating around, stolen from military bases earlier, and a lot of people drive around the city, armed and very dangerous. The "security force" that you propose to send is incompatible with the concept of Ukraine as an independent country; it's what occupiers do. Would you like it if China sends "advisors" here who would be driving around in tanks and shoot americans left and right just because they thought them suspicious? If not, why would Ukrainians like it? They are well armed now, and if need be the army depots will be opened again. They have a lot of hardware there.
Additionally, this is just yet another way to dump billions of dollars into the black hole that Ukraine is.
4) Immediately move to make the rest of the Ukraine a part of NATO.
It is not possible because a country has to be stable before it enters NATO. It wouldn't be very wise to start World War III over a border conflict that was instigated (or staged) by persons unknown. Membership in NATO is a large responsibility. Ukraine is not ready for that, just as it is not ready for EU. (On the other hand, considering the current state of EU, it may be a good fit.)
Nonsense. You're just spouting disinformation. In the same spirit all the Russians are former Stalinists who massacred more than ten million Ukrainians and want to do the same thing again.
In reality there are lots of different viewpoints in Ukraine, just like every other nation. Many people opposed the corruption of Yanukovych's government, enough so his own party members voted against him in Parliament. Are you accusing them of being Nazis too?
And in case you haven't noticed, few of the people living today had anything to do with what happened in the 1930s and 1940s. Many of the protestors weren't even alive in 1980, let alone 1940. But somehow it seems the propagandists always go back to history and try to claim people today are responsible for what others did in the past.
There are surely some people with bad ideas on both sides of the dispute, as well as many people with good intentions.
So, Russia is grabbing up it’s versions of “Sudetenland”?
>>In reality there are lots of different viewpoints in Ukraine, just like every other nation. Many people opposed the corruption of Yanukovych’s government, enough so his own party members voted against him in Parliament. Are you accusing them of being Nazis too?<<
You are right, sir! The problem there are no mechanism to exercise different viewpoints left. Yep, the government was bad and it was demolished and what next? Radicals got an upper hand as there is no one to enforce the law. Libya, Egypt anyone?
those Ukrainians LOVED being Nazi prison guards
they are not nice people and are cruel
Russia is protecting its Black Sea fleet and keeping the Western Ukrainian Banderstaat from entering Crimea.
Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists
Like I’ve said, Vlad is the modern day Hitler. He is just biding his time for now before he orders his red hordes to begin the exterminations and his Islamic allies led by Iran to attack Israel no doubt with nukes the Russian bastards helped them develop.
Thanks for the Wikipedia item on Bandera and his organization. I won’t comment on the anti-semitism of some of the OUN factions or Ukkrainians in general except to say that some served the Nazis as extermination forces and SS guard (among the cruelest I’ve been told by survivors). Others were not anti-semitic as they had lived alongside of Jews and Poles and Hungarians in Lemberg/Lvov (where my grandmother came from - she lost her whole family there or in Auschwitz).
What I wanted to mention are the Stetkos, the pupper fascist leaders of the Ukraine under the Nazis. How they escaped being executed as traitors and murderers I don’t know.
Met them in 1974. Madame Stetsko was an unrepentent fascist (just like Bill Ayers is an unrepentent marxist). Her husband was a bit more subdued (and learning about her I can see why. I got the feeling that she was the Ilse Koch (The Bitch of Buchenwald) equivalent for the Ukraine).
Also at this conference was Gen. Oberlander, the chief of the Werhmacht which invaded the Ukraine. He was accused by Moscow of being a war criminal but evidence showed that he defied Hitler’s orders to kill the Jews, stating that he was a German officer/soldier, not a murderer.
He was relieved of command and returned to Germany, WHERE HE WAS NOT EXECUTED, thus showing the judges and juries at the Nuremberg Trials that you could successfully turn down Hitler/Himmler’s orders to kill people not involved in combat.
I only point this out because I wanted it to be known by history that there were a lot of interesting sidebars to WW2 and the people in it, the Oberlander case being one.
Also, in a vote to condemn “communism, fascism and anti-semitism” (at the World Anti-Communist League meeting in DC in 1974), there were two anti-communist factions.
One consisted of the fascists from WW2, including the Stetskos and the Croatian Utashi fascists, plus anut from Guatemala named Guererra (a Latin American “gorilla” if there ever was one. We tangled, he lost.
On the side of the resolution condemning anti-Semitism were members/supporters of the Yugoslavian Chetnik movement, Alpha 66, the Cuban freedom fighter movement, and General Oberlander.
The KGB agent in the audience must have shit in his pants when he saw what was happening and who was involved. Hotel security kept him in his cage.
Just a little piece of history that I learned in a couple days at the conference.
Bandera and his allies fought against a lot of different forces, sometimes brutally. War isn't pretty, particularly when an insurgent force is caught between two other powers intent on subjugating its people. Present day propagandists are trying to tar the Ukrainians of today because some Ukrainians sided with the Germans temporarily during WWII.
Funny how nobody seems upset that the French, for example, did the same thing. Would you consider the French people of today Nazis because they supported the Nazis with the full force of their government and nation in WWII? Of course not, that would be as ridiculous as your assertions about modern day Ukrainians.
Who Was Stepan Bandera?
As an uncompromising leader of the militant, terrorist branch of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), Bandera became a Nazi collaborator who lived with his deputies under German protection after World War II began. In preparation for the attack on the USSR, the Nazis recruited Banderas followers to act as Ukrainian-speaking policemen and to serve in two Ukrainian volunteer army battalions. By working with the Nazis, Bandera hoped to free Ukraine from Soviet rule and establish his own government there. An independent Ukraine, Bandera promised, would remain friendly to Germany.
Historian Karel Berkhoff, among others, has shown that Bandera, his deputies, and the Nazis shared a key obsession, namely the notion that the Jews in Ukraine were behind Communism and Stalinist imperialism and must be destroyed. The Jews of the Soviet Union, read a Banderist statement, are the most loyal supporters of the Bolshevik Regime and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in the Ukraine. When the Germans invaded the USSR in June 1941 and captured the East Galician capital of Lvov, Banderas lieutenants issued a declaration of independence in his name. They further promised to work closely with Hitler, then helped to launch a pogrom that killed four thousand Lvov Jews in a few days, using weapons ranging from guns to metal poles. We will lay your heads at Hitlers feet, a Banderist pamphlet proclaimed to Ukrainian Jews.
The Lvov pogrom of 1941
Below is a serie of photos of the Lvov pogrom of 1941. The Jewish pogrom in the city of Lvov (Lviv, Lwow orLemberg) in Western Ukraine was organised by the Germans and “the Ukrainian people’s militia” (the Ukranian Nazi collaborators from so called OUN - Organisation of Ukranian Nationalists). The pogrom took place the first days of German occupation as a prelude to total extermination of Lvov Jews.
On the photos below - the scenes of street violence, beatings by stones, sticks, humiliation of women by public undressing, the humilation in the form of washing sidewalks, marches on the knees and with hands up across the city, the scenes of brutal arrests of Jews in the streets by Ukranian Nazi militia, which escorted them to forced works in former NKVD prisons in the city. In those prisons after various beatings and humilations they were shot dead in the courtyards. The total number of victims of the pogrom estimated to be between 2 and 7 thousands people. .
Are the young people of Germany guilty of crimes against humanity? By your apparent logic they are.
There may be some people today participating in the protests in Ukraine who have bad intentions, or who harbor anti-Semitic viewpoints. They and their wrong ideas should be scorned and rejected. But you can't tar every protestor today with a brush dipped in tragedy from more than 70 years ago.