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The Terms of Our Surrender (to gay marriage)
New York Times ^ | March 1, 2014 | Ross Douthat

Posted on 03/02/2014 5:22:19 AM PST by reaganaut1

IT now seems certain that before too many years elapse, the Supreme Court will be forced to acknowledge the logic of its own jurisprudence on same-sex marriage and redefine marriage to include gay couples in all 50 states.

Once this happens, the national debate essentially will be finished, but the country will remain divided, with a substantial minority of Americans, most of them religious, still committed to the older view of marriage.

So what then? One possibility is that this division will recede into the cultural background, with marriage joining the long list of topics on which Americans disagree without making a political issue out of it.

In this scenario, religious conservatives would essentially be left to promote their view of wedlock within their own institutions, as a kind of dissenting subculture emphasizing gender differences and procreation, while the wider culture declares that love and commitment are enough to make a marriage. And where conflicts arise — in a case where, say, a Mormon caterer or a Catholic photographer objected to working at a same-sex wedding — gay rights supporters would heed the advice of gay marriage’s intellectual progenitor, Andrew Sullivan, and let the dissenters opt out “in the name of their freedom — and ours.”

But there’s another possibility, in which the oft-invoked analogy between opposition to gay marriage and support for segregation in the 1960s South is pushed to its logical public-policy conclusion. In this scenario, the unwilling photographer or caterer would be treated like the proprietor of a segregated lunch counter, and face fines or lose his business — which is the intent of recent legal actions against a wedding photographer in New Mexico, a florist in Washington State, and a baker in Colorado.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News
KEYWORDS: douthat; homosexualagenda; homosexuals
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No amount of coercion will change the fact that males were made to have sexual intercourse with females, not males, that unnatural acts spread disease, and that normal sex is what perpetuates the human race. If someone thinks I am a bigot for facing reality, that is their problem.

My parents are from India. Homosexuality is still illegal in India. If I thought gays had a live-and-let-live mentality, I'd support decriminalizing homosexuality. But I think Indians and and other people around the world will observe what has happened in the U.S. and see that homosexual activists want not just tolerance but approval of their activities.

1 posted on 03/02/2014 5:22:19 AM PST by reaganaut1
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To: reaganaut1

The long sought destruction of the Catholic Church is what this is about in the US and Europe. Once the wellspring of Western Culture is destroyed, the Mongols will be free to conquer Europe and India again. The end result will be less tolerance for “alternate lifestyles”.


2 posted on 03/02/2014 5:31:08 AM PST by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: reaganaut1

Who will the next cause? Progressives need an enemy to prosper.As we are dealing with sexual preferences perhaps it will be pedophilia or cross species partnerships or inter galactic relationships. The mind boggles.


3 posted on 03/02/2014 5:36:16 AM PST by managusta (The first sign of maturity is the discovery that the volume knob also turns to the left.)
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To: reaganaut1
The reset to natural law after this epoch of mass social insanity is going to be brutal beyond comprehension.

That's why I wrote this warning.

Link to the full-text Free Republic thread.

4 posted on 03/02/2014 5:36:17 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: reaganaut1

God will judge. And based on history, he will judge exceedingly harshly against the homosexuals. Not because he hates them. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

But if you think God will not judge harshly those who mock him and try to turn His word into something it is not re: Gay marriage and the homosexual lifestyle, then you are in for a rude awakening.

Gay marriage and the entire Gay Rights Movement are a symptom of a deeper problem in this country. The rejection of God and His word.


5 posted on 03/02/2014 5:37:02 AM PST by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: managusta

DAYGAMIC

Don't aim your gaydar at my innocent children!

6 posted on 03/02/2014 5:37:22 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: reaganaut1

Very good article. I think what the author doesn’t realize or maybe just doesn’t say is that the “gay rights” thing (where their “rigths” trump everybody else’s) is actually just part of the relentless progressive battle to destroy the family and the entire private sphere.

The Church is the protector of the private sphere against the government, and always has been. Christianity has always been that irritating thing that keeps the government from completely taking over every individual under it. “Just a pinch of incense, what harm will it do?” But Christians held firm and went to their deaths rather than pretend that the civil ruler was God.

The gay attack is just another ingenious way of getting at Christians and trying to bring the private, personal sphere under government control. After all, what meany can be against two loving gays getting “married”...it’s really not much, is it? So forcing everybody to declare that this civil partnership between two men or whatever is “marriage” really isn’t a big deal, and Christians are just being nutty and fanatical by refusing to participate. Ignoring it or tolerating it is not enough; they have to participate and swear their support to this state-invented doctrine. And if they don’t, then the state has every right to get involved and force them to do the right thing.

I think most people, including most Christians, don’t realize what’s at stake here.


7 posted on 03/02/2014 5:41:15 AM PST by livius
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To: managusta

“Who will the next cause?”

Transgenderism — the right to cut off your gonads (paid by health insurance) and declare that doing so has turned you from a male to a female.


8 posted on 03/02/2014 5:41:35 AM PST by reaganaut1
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To: reaganaut1

All I want is the same rights as a bearded Imam. We know that religious Christians and religious Muslims are not going to be treated in the same way in regards to this issue. A Muslim photographer, florist, or baker will be left alone, why, because both the government and the activists are scared of them.


9 posted on 03/02/2014 5:42:26 AM PST by gusty
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To: reaganaut1

Before long gays will be the only people getting married.


10 posted on 03/02/2014 5:52:40 AM PST by Glenmore
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To: reaganaut1

The evil ones have destroyed America a few years back, now they are intent on the destruction of Christianity...as God wills.

This is exactly why you can expect society to collapse in a short time period. I would be surprised if there is an election this fall.

Get good with God, for real...not the Sunday only pretend reverence, become a source of encouragement to others to come to God. The time has passed to be politely discreet about God. When you lose all hope, pretend you still have hope. Within a few years we will be saved, not by man, but by Christ. The keys are to be faithful to God and using your skills to survive. Defend those who cannot defend themselves from evil, and support those who need help.


11 posted on 03/02/2014 5:58:27 AM PST by Wpin ("I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny...")
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To: livius
"Just part of the relentless progressive battle to destroy the family and the entire private sphere.'

THAT is exactly correct.....Our stinking progressive government MUST find someway to convince us that our rights come from government....NOT GOD. Simply because what government gives government can take away....What God gives ONLY God can take away....

It drives the progressives CRAZY...

12 posted on 03/02/2014 6:05:37 AM PST by unread (Rescind the 17th. Amendment...bring the power BACK to the states...!)
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To: livius

13 posted on 03/02/2014 6:08:49 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: livius

If the word “one” is not specific in the civil law regarding marriage, what will be so special about the word “two.” Polygamy and triads of various sexes will be the next push for ‘acceptance.’

As you say, it is all to attack the power of the family which is the bedrock of civilization.


14 posted on 03/02/2014 6:11:16 AM PST by maica (We are seeing an interesting mixture of malice and incompetence at healthcare.gov)
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To: managusta

They are going to test your kids for sexual preference and if they decide they are gay, they will either demand that they you raise them according to their dictates, or simply take them away.


15 posted on 03/02/2014 6:17:51 AM PST by beef (Who Killed Kennewick Man?)
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To: reaganaut1

People may say homosexual marriage, does not make it true.
There never can be marriage beyond one man and one woman.


16 posted on 03/02/2014 6:19:36 AM PST by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: reaganaut1
the national debate essentially will be finished, but the country will remain divided, with a substantial minority of Americans, most of them religious, still committed to the older view of marriage

It's not an "older view". Water is wet. A is A. Marriage involves two people of the opposite sex.

IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE PROFESS OTHERWISE.

17 posted on 03/02/2014 6:22:11 AM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: managusta

Humans having sexual relations with animals and animals having sexual relation with humans. The media are already conditioning the population for this.


18 posted on 03/02/2014 6:22:34 AM PST by sport
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To: reaganaut1

“Christians had plenty of opportunities — thousands of years’ worth — to treat gay people with real charity, and far too often chose intolerance...So being marginalized, being sued, losing tax-exempt status — this will be uncomfortable, but we should keep perspective and remember our sins, and nobody should call it persecution.”

Would anyone write that about bestiality, or child molesters?

Maybe not today, but as America races into the sewer, they will.


19 posted on 03/02/2014 6:27:28 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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To: reaganaut1

What people aren’t understanding is that this is NOT about “marriage” at all, ultimately, but about gaining power over Christians and over a Christian world view.

“Marriage” is the means, not the goal.


20 posted on 03/02/2014 6:35:19 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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Less than $3.8k to go!!


21 posted on 03/02/2014 6:35:22 AM PST by RedMDer (May we always be happy and may our enemies always know it. - Sarah Palin, 10-18-2010)
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To: reaganaut1

“So being marginalized, being sued, losing tax-exempt status — this will be uncomfortable, but we should keep perspective and remember our sins, and nobody should call it persecution.”

The fight about homo stuff/’gay marriage’ has always been about using the power of the state to punish and to be able to keep punishing those who they know will never accept it. It’s the stick they will never have to put down.

FReegards


22 posted on 03/02/2014 6:37:48 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: livius
I think what the author doesn’t realize or maybe just doesn’t say is that the “gay rights” thing (where their “rigths” trump everybody else’s) is actually just part of the relentless progressive battle to destroy the family and the entire private sphere.

Exactly right. Today it is considered unacceptable to criticize cohabitation and single parenthood--no matter how much harm comes to children as a result. When "mama's boyfriend" batters a child, the only socially acceptable response is to call for more government programs for all parties. Same-sex marriage and parenting will just take us farther down that road. And its primary victims will be innocent children.

23 posted on 03/02/2014 6:50:09 AM PST by madprof98
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To: reaganaut1

Its simple ...if the government must acknowledge, it you must acknowledge it under threat of government punishment ...

Its very 1984...

The Supreme Court has ruled 2+2=4 ....and also 5.

And any law saying 2+2=4 only, and not also 5 is discrimination ...

So all now must say this new truth IS the truth....

See in the past, you wanting to say 2+2=5 was no skin off my nose I could accept you being wrong because it didn’t hurt me...but now I must accept your fantasy...

This country started on this line....We hold these truths to be self-eviden..

That is the foundation of America. .

Destroy the very concept of there being self-evident truths .that truth is just a whim of a given moment...and all collapses

its very 1984, very new speak, to bend a man to say a simple lie, a silly lie like 2+2=5...but it how you break a freeman and a free country to be a slave....

The truth has no agenda but a lie always does. .even a silly one


24 posted on 03/02/2014 7:08:58 AM PST by tophat9000 (Are we headed to a Cracker Slacker War?)
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To: reaganaut1

There is no “after the gay marriage debate”. Gay marriage can only exist when there’s a total redefinition of marriage. The fact that we’re instituting it means marriage in our society is near deaths door and leaches are attaching themselves to the carcass. In the end, gay marriage = no marriage and no marriage = societal death.

People who care about their families should probably get out. I generally think India is one of the better places.


25 posted on 03/02/2014 7:14:42 AM PST by Varda
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To: Bryan24
Gay marriage and the entire Gay Rights Movement are a symptom of a deeper problem in this country. The rejection of God and His word

That's what it's all about, and we surrendered without a fight when we started using their word "gay". The American people for many years have routinely voted for "homosexual-friendly candidates and shall continue to do so.

26 posted on 03/02/2014 7:18:59 AM PST by Theodore R. (Alas: TX Republicans to endorse Cornball and George P! Stay tuned March 4)
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To: reaganaut1
I will NEVER accept it.
27 posted on 03/02/2014 7:20:05 AM PST by onedoug
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To: reaganaut1

We’re being subjected to the tyranny of a 2.5 percent minority.


28 posted on 03/02/2014 7:24:33 AM PST by glennaro
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To: Incorrigible

The long sought destruction of the Catholic Church is what this is about in the US and Europe. Once the wellspring of Western Culture is destroyed, the Mongols will be free to conquer Europe and India again. The end result will be less tolerance for “alternate lifestyles”.

***
Not just the Catholic Church. They want to destroy any religious tradition that speaks the truth about this abnormal behavior. And they know that the destruction of the family and of religious faith will lead to their ultimate leftist goal, i.e., complete domination of the individual.


29 posted on 03/02/2014 7:42:55 AM PST by Bigg Red (O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! Ps 8)
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To: maica

Time for the total weirdoes to come out. How about incest? I want to marry my brother, we are too old to have children, so why not? We are two consenting adults and we love each other, isn’t that the argument?


30 posted on 03/02/2014 7:45:03 AM PST by tuffydoodle (Shut up voices, or I'll poke you with a Q-Tip again.)
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To: reaganaut1

I had so hoped that by this time into the argument the opposing side would have realized the egregiousness of the actions being taken against our Bill of Rights.

I had hoped that they would realize that once limitations to our Rights under the Bill of Rights was common, that this would be a double edged sword that could cut their way too.

Sadly, they do not yet seemed to have realized this. That is what scares me!


31 posted on 03/02/2014 7:55:44 AM PST by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: svcw
There never can be marriage beyond one man and one woman.

Marriage was created by God, marriage does not exist without a man, a woman and God.

Ecc 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

32 posted on 03/02/2014 7:56:19 AM PST by thirst4truth (Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point.)
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To: Travis McGee

I wonder if “homosexual activists” really aren’t Liberal Activists and they just see this as something to target other Americans about.


33 posted on 03/02/2014 8:13:36 AM PST by BeadCounter
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To: reaganaut1

Some say when they meaning the SCOTUS tossed the Sodomites laws out, that is what opened up the doors to where we are going now.

Also, I thought India just recriminalized homosexuality so there was a court verdict that stood for a few years, I read an article on it the other day.


34 posted on 03/02/2014 8:15:09 AM PST by BeadCounter
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To: reaganaut1

I for one believe we are on the verge of the worldwide conflagration foretold to us by Our Lady, beginning with the Fatima apparition and continuing through the Akita, Japan apparition. In both of those appearances of Our Lady, she warned that if mankind did not repent that great wars would happen and later on whole nations would be annihilated.

Clearly the United States is beginning to lose it’s moral compass and we now have legislators that rule against the will of the people. The worldwide rejection of God and His word is setting the stage for what I believe, and have read about, is a 3rd world war and persecution of Christians worldwide.

The message from Our Lady, Akita, Japan, 1973. This apparition has been deemed worthy of belief by the Church.

The third message on October 13, 1973, the actual anniversary of the final visions and miracle of Fatima is as follows:

“As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful.

The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day, recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests. The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, and bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their Confreres. The Church and altars will be vandalized. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

“The demon will rage especially against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them.”

There are many other prophecies by catholic saints throughout history which point to this worldwide lawless, immoral period.

The message is the same, make reparation to God, repent and get ready, it’s going to get uglier.


35 posted on 03/02/2014 8:23:15 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: svcw

People may say—as I DO— I will NOT comply!— As Peter and the other Apostles answered the unjust Judge “We ought to obey God,rather than men”(Acts 5:29) As Samuel West Preached in 1776 On the right to Rebel—when the magistrates begin to call evil good and good evil (reflecting a Bible verse) they cease to be the ordinance of God,and are the ministers of darkness .Our duty to obey—or sustain them ceases and it is our Duty to resist and oppose them whenever possible.’(in paraphrase-with my apologies to Samuel West) Once I believed in America and Americans— Now? — I fear I’ve seen too many sheep without a shepherd going along just to get along.


36 posted on 03/02/2014 8:32:17 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: thirst4truth

Yes, and a ceremony which also represents the covenant between Christ and His church.
When two flesh become one, it is very clear husbands love your wives and wives honor your husbands.
So no matter what anyone calls it otherwise, marriage as ordained by God is one man and one woman.


37 posted on 03/02/2014 8:33:43 AM PST by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: livius

Yeah, I think you’re exactly right.


38 posted on 03/02/2014 8:35:58 AM PST by Yardstick
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To: reaganaut1

“But it’s still important for the winning side to recognize its power. We are not really having an argument about same-sex marriage anymore, and on the evidence of Arizona, we’re not having a negotiation. Instead, all that’s left is the timing of the final victory — and for the defeated to find out what settlement the victors will impose.”

Not only in the battle not lost, the war against the pro sodomite forces is not lost. In fact, Pro Family Christian forces can still win but must catch-up with other nations that have drawn and defended reasonable battle lines against the Gay Insurgents.

The 14th Amendment should be repealed or at least revised to exclude gays from being granted Equal Protection.

In addition, the Constitution should be amended to include an Amendment banning gay marriage, gay civil unions, gay adoption, gay workplace protection, and gay propaganda in our media.


39 posted on 03/02/2014 8:58:18 AM PST by Oliviaforever
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To: tophat9000

You summed up the situation very well. In a way, we’re the unfortunate ones who know 2+2=4 no matter what anyone else says. Maybe if we could believe in the fantasy, it would be easier to not care, but we KNOW 2+2=4. Maybe they’ll eventually send us to reeducation camps, but I doubt it will help me. Of course, with modern technology, maybe they’ll be able to fix us unfortunate believers in Truth.

http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/18.html

God help us!


40 posted on 03/02/2014 9:38:53 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Sodomy and abortion: the only constitutional rights cherished by Democrats.)
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To: tuffydoodle

How about incest? Etc....

****

Why should “what someone does in the privacy of the bedroom” be the determining factor? Why can’t a mother whose son moves in with her be her significant other for ‘entitlement to benefits’? Or two elderly sisters sharing a home, or two elderly brothers, or you name any combination of adults, or why stop at adults ......


41 posted on 03/02/2014 9:49:57 AM PST by maica (We are seeing an interesting mixture of malice and incompetence at healthcare.gov)
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To: reaganaut1

for later


42 posted on 03/02/2014 10:04:39 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you and keep you, may He turn to you His countenance and give you peace.)
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To: CitizenUSA
In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolution?..Orwell new that but it not a new idea...see john. 18:37-38...truth...it is the pivot point of all history..the first and last battle

the funny this was a non issue for me till the last few years Had/have lot of gay friends. It was no skin off my nose..true libertarian live let live... all have are failings, our falsehoods but we know our own lies are lies.....it when this changes to ...”you and the world must confess fault as truth” that when it crossed over...take a bite of the apple

43 posted on 03/02/2014 10:48:32 AM PST by tophat9000 (Are we headed to a Cracker Slacker War?)
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To: tuffydoodle

What’s “too old to have children” have to do with it?

The claim is that “any two people who love each other should be allowed to marry”.

Once they start putting limitations on that, we’re back to the fact that standard heterosexual marriage has lots of limitations on it, and that one of the limitations is that there shall be exactly one man and exactly one woman.


44 posted on 03/02/2014 10:54:49 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: glennaro
We’re being subjected to the tyranny of a 2.5 percent minority.

That may be the percentage of the population who are homosexuals, but that's not all who are pushing this "gay marriage" nonsense.

The institution of marriage has been under attack for a long time by people who are mostly not homosexuals. "Gay marriage" is their latest tactic.

45 posted on 03/02/2014 10:57:47 AM PST by Salman
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To: Travis McGee

“As surely as water will wet us,
As surely as fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings,
...”


46 posted on 03/02/2014 11:01:09 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

Even without any Divine causation, there is a great deal of unpleasantness that lies ahead, no matter what any person or persons do or don’t do.

Promises that were made on an industrial scale over the course of generations will be broken on an industrial scale over the course of years or even months.

The money has run out.

Combine that with the fact that the last forty years of solar activity trends say “Ice Age Coming”, and the world-wide casualty count will be in ten digits.


47 posted on 03/02/2014 11:07:22 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
"Clearly the United States is beginning to lose it’s moral compass..."

With all due respect, allow me to make a correction.

The United States has already lost it's moral compass.

An American Expat in Southeast Asia

48 posted on 03/02/2014 11:36:00 AM PST by expatguy (Donate to "An American Expat in SE Asia")
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To: reaganaut1

I notice that when the libertarians have a victory, they don’t bother with these type of threads anymore.


49 posted on 03/02/2014 1:01:12 PM PST by ansel12 (Ben Bradlee -- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: DuncanWaring

Because the argument would be that siblings shouldn’t marry because any resulting children would probably be retarded. I’m not saying that sibs should get married, I was saying that once the door is opened to gay marriage, then anyone should be able to marry. My personal beliefs are biblical, One man, One woman. Til death us do part.


50 posted on 03/02/2014 1:09:33 PM PST by tuffydoodle (Shut up voices, or I'll poke you with a Q-Tip again.)
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