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Opinion: Ignore Western hypocrisy, Putin will do what he wants
CNN ^ | March 7, 2014 | By Simon Tisdall

Posted on 03/07/2014 10:28:51 AM PST by Jim Robinson

(CNN) -- All the self-righteous huffing and puffing in Washington over Ukraine jars on European and especially Russian ears after the multiple U.S.-led invasions and interventions in other people's countries of recent years. It's difficult to say what is more astonishing: the double standards exhibited by the White House, or the apparent total lack of self-awareness of U.S. officials.

Secretary of State John Kerry risked utter ridicule when he declared it unacceptable to invade another country on a "completely trumped-up pretext," or just because you don't like its current leadership. Iraq in 2003 springs instantly to mind. This is exactly what George W. Bush and Tony Blair did when they "trumped up" the supposed threat posed by the hated Saddam Hussein's fabled weapons of mass destruction.

Like Saddam, the Taliban leadership in place in Afghanistan in 2001 was deeply objectionable. But instead of just going after Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda training camps after the 9/11 attacks, Bush (again abetted by Blair) opted for full-scale regime change. The lamentable consequences of that decision are still being felt 13 years later, not least by Afghan civilians who have been dying in ever greater numbers as the final Nato withdrawal approaches.

U.S. President Barack Obama, a former law professor who should know better, has charged Vladimir Putin, his Russian counterpart, with violating Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, in breach of international law.

But it is Obama, following in Bush's footsteps, who has repeatedly and cynically flouted international law by launching or backing myriad armed attacks on foreign soil, in Libya, Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan to name a few, without U.N. security council authorization...

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: obama; putin; russia; ukraine; viktoryanukovich; yuliatymoshenko
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1 posted on 03/07/2014 10:28:51 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson

When Obama fails, it’s all Bush’s fault.


2 posted on 03/07/2014 10:31:03 AM PST by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: Jim Robinson
"U.S. President Barack Obama, a former law professor who should know better,"

Not to make light of an article which makes well-taken points, with which I very much agree. But as a lawyer of many decades, the above quote had me laughing. From what he has shown us in Washington, Professor Barrack Obama, as a Constitutional scholar is a total joke! Most rooted fifth graders could be expected to show a better understanding of American Constitutional Law.

William Flax

3 posted on 03/07/2014 10:35:05 AM PST by Ohioan
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To: Jim Robinson

Pooty-Poot has a pen and a phone too.


4 posted on 03/07/2014 10:40:06 AM PST by Paladin2
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To: Jim Robinson

All of which is true.

The last time America intervened to protect Americans was in Grenada.

Since then its busied itself reordering other countries to its liking and appointing governments for them.

And here its accusing Russia of doing the very same things that itself stands guilty of. Psychologists call it projection.

Put quite simply, Ukraine is none of our business. The Russians haven’t turned it into a Guernica and no one in the West can claim they have troops anywhere openly occupying Ukraine.

As for Crimea - most of it is Russian. Its not Russia that is living in another world, but the West, led by America that is oblivious to the human rights of the people who live there, including their right to decide their own future.

Its bad enough when America doesn’t come with clean hands to the court. What’s really inexcusable are two things: America is backing a regime no body in Ukrained voted for and its also invoking a Ukrainian Constitution to deny the right of the Crimeans that as it turns out, no body in Ukraine voted to ratify.

This is what America and the West mean by democracy: supporting lawlessness and usurping the rights of minorities. They can spare Russia the hypocritical indignation as well as the bullying and the pressure. Its not a principled position.

Which is exactly what the world and Americans too, have come to expect from the Obama Administration and its leading officials. And moreover, whilst they lecture to Russia about the sanctity of international law, they cannot faithfully execute the laws of their own country.

America should put its own glass house in order before it throws stones at Russia.


5 posted on 03/07/2014 10:45:29 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Jim Robinson

The case against Saddam Hussein was not trumped up. Hussein’s fingerprints were all over the anthrax attacks which followed 9/11 and it does not take hundreds of tons of anthrax spores to create pandemonium, all that was involved was a few tablespoons full. The most major cases of trumped up US rationals for US involvement in recent times have been Serbia/Kosovo in 1999 and Libya in 2011.


6 posted on 03/07/2014 10:47:19 AM PST by varmintman
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To: Jim Robinson

I pretty much do the same.


7 posted on 03/07/2014 10:48:35 AM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: Jim Robinson
-- This is exactly what George W. Bush and Tony Blair did when they "trumped up" the supposed threat posed by the hated Saddam Hussein's fabled weapons of mass destruction.

--someone might point out to this individual that Blair and Bush took that action on the advice of all of the major powers "intelligence" services and with the blessing of their respective legislatures -and the U. N.---

8 posted on 03/07/2014 10:50:25 AM PST by rellimpank (--don't believe anything the media or government says about firearms or explosives--)
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To: Jim Robinson

“Obama, a former law professor...”

If the author can’t get this fact right, how are we to believe the rest of what he has to say?


9 posted on 03/07/2014 10:51:25 AM PST by Cowboy Bob (They are called "Liberals" because the word "parasite" was already taken.)
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To: Jim Robinson

We’ve been on wild goose chases ever since Presidents stopped asking Congress for a formal declaration of war. If there is any part of the Constitution that conservatives should emphasis, it is that Congressional action. Instead we have been using various Constitutional work-arounds for the President to commit military forces. These do not unite the nation but foster political second guessing and opposition.

Somehow we are expected to give blood and treasure to anyone who wants to start a revolution and get us to bail them out. Others expect us to provide job exporting trade deficit to the world. Regardless of who is President, we need to rebuild America to be the strongest in the world and that includes the resurrection of MADE IN USA. If we had exported our factories to China, Germany and Japan we would have lost WW II. We need American nationalism not world adventurism.


10 posted on 03/07/2014 11:07:12 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: ex-snook

“We’ve been on wild goose chases ever since Presidents stopped asking Congress for a formal declaration of war.”

You mean Jefferson?


11 posted on 03/07/2014 11:10:10 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: lepton

Roosevelt but you must have forgotten that.


12 posted on 03/07/2014 11:12:31 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: varmintman

That may all be true, but that invasion ultimately wasn’t intelligent. It’s in our national interests to have dictators control Islamic nations, specifically dictators that don’t take Islam seriously. Otherwise we end up with an Iran. Or an Arab Spring.

Bush should’ve just conducted a few bombing strikes and retained a Sunni Iraq counterbalance to the Shi’ite Iran.


13 posted on 03/07/2014 11:20:48 AM PST by afsnco
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To: Cowboy Bob

Obama kicked it back to Russia over the net—Next move is Putin’s now. What Obama wants is a face saving “Putin Blinks” Moment (and headline). Wait til you see what happens next—maybe 48 hours from now—and it might be something both unexpected and a real bitter pill for the USA. Will Putin pull back? I don’t think so. What might happen? I will put on my swami’s turban and see what I can come up with:
1. A move on the part of China to do something to seize Islands, or move on a Japanese ship.
2. A blowing up of a gas pipeline in Ukraine (by “Terrorists”) that will stop natural gas to the state and Europe.
3. A “terrorist” action—like Boston Bombing—maybe against an oil pipeline in the USA?
4. New scandalious leaks from Snowden about corruption in Obama’s White House? Maybe how Obama ordered the IRS to attack Tea Parties?
5. The surfacing of a new Kenyan Birth Certificate for the President showing he isn’t an American at all.
6. Putin gives Hannity or Rush an interview.
7. More Pro-Russian demonstration in Ukraine—maybe coal miners this time—a violent reaction by Ukraine might be all he needs to roll in with the T-90 Tanks.
8. Iran explodes a nuke—even a small one vintage WW II would do the trick.
9. How about a flood of money and information to Sarah Palin or Ted Cruz—or just to Fox?
10. Cut the use of Russia to supply our troops in Kabul? or weapons to the Taliban?
11. The list goes on and on—you can think of a few I am sure...


14 posted on 03/07/2014 11:21:00 AM PST by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Jim Robinson
The usual Bush-bashing based on false premises detracts from an otherwise sound approach to the situation. Tisdale needs to read his history a little - heads of state are not deterred by accusations of hypocrisy, liberal ones especially. We were at war with Iraq at the time; Russia was not at war with the Ukraine.

Inconvenient facts aside, the case that Putin will do whatever he desires is correct. One purpose of diplomacy is to see that the stage of decision-making through armored formations is not reached. 0bama's has failed. This will go where Putin drives it, no more, no less.

15 posted on 03/07/2014 11:23:11 AM PST by Billthedrill
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To: lepton
There is a huge difference between invading a nation, or bombing its cities (as Clinton/Blair did to Serbia), and sending frigates & marines to protect your shipping from Pirates & brigands.

Jefferson's dealings with the Barbary Pirates were honorable. Clinton & Obama are not morally fit to clean the manure our of the stable at Monticello. (Yes, I know I am blending the centuries, but you get the idea.

William Flax

16 posted on 03/07/2014 11:24:23 AM PST by Ohioan
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To: goldstategop

I’m out of this one also. I’m giving no voluntary moral or material support to intervening in Ukraine. I don’t care if it aligns with Usama’s policy.


17 posted on 03/07/2014 11:27:33 AM PST by AlmaKing
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To: ex-snook
We’ve been on wild goose chases ever since Presidents stopped asking Congress for a formal declaration of war. If there is any part of the Constitution that conservatives should emphasis, it is that Congressional action

+1. One of my favorite subjects.

Read this: "the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Imperial Government of Japan; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United states."

One of the things missing from the last 70 years of military failures is the phrase "all the resources of the country are hereby pledged". The President cannot do that. In the theology of the American system, Congress is us. Through representation, they act on our behalf and exercise powers that belong to us, one of which is the War Power.

The President can deploy armed forces, but he cannot give those forces the total commitment that war requires.

Also notice the words "authorized AND DIRECTED". That describes a correct relation between the power to initiate war and the power to carry it out. Also missing this past 70 years or so.

18 posted on 03/07/2014 11:33:44 AM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Jim Robinson

It seems to me conservatives and liberals have had a complete role reversal since the 60’s. I am not old enough to remember the Vietnam protests of John Kerry and the Clintons or other radicalism they and Obama were part of back then, but I recall descriptions that include advice to “turn on, tune in, and drop out”, and “don’t trust anyone over 30”. These, along with Hollywood leftists, like Jane Fonda, war violent anti-war protesters.

Now they have transformed themselves into the short-haired hippies running the nation. And conservatives now find themselves opposing the pointless wars, the abuse of power, and the general lack of human decency that these leftists so loudly accused our former leaders of.


19 posted on 03/07/2014 11:39:33 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Jim Noble
"Read this: "the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Imperial Government of Japan; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United states."

Thanks for pointing out what should be done by Congress. Conservatives take note of the Constitution.

20 posted on 03/07/2014 11:44:05 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: ex-snook

No. I didn’t forget. I merely cited under whose Presidency the precedent was argued out and accepted that a Declaration of War is not an authorization to fight if attacked or threatened, but rather an authorization to take...like if next Thursday we wanted Canada.


21 posted on 03/07/2014 11:53:58 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Ohioan

There is a huge difference between invading a nation, or bombing its cities (as Clinton/Blair did to Serbia), and sending frigates & marines to protect your shipping from Pirates & brigands.


Agreed.


22 posted on 03/07/2014 11:57:01 AM PST by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: varmintman

bump to that


23 posted on 03/07/2014 12:15:49 PM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: Jim Robinson

“Secretary of State John Kerry risked utter ridicule when he declared it unacceptable to invade another country on a “completely trumped-up pretext,” or just because you don’t like its current leadership. Iraq in 2003 springs instantly to mind.”

Where and when we heard that before?

1999 - “Milosevici killed 100,000 Albanian Kosovars” (no bodies were found)

2003 - “Saddam Hussein has Weapons of Mass Destruction” (no WMD were found)

and now

2014 “Yanukovich sent snipers to kill peaceful demonstrators” IT REMAINS TO BE PROVED!

A leaked phone call between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet has revealed that the two discussed that the blame of the killing of civilian protesters in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, is on the radical militiamen rather than the government police forces.

youtu.be/ZEgJ0oo3OA8

youtu.be/eXp-SiMXbnU

Olga Bogomolets, who gave the information to the Estonian minister, is a public figure and a respectable doctor, who has actually taken part in the Maidan movement from the onset and was tending to the wounded victims herself, along with other doctors. You can google her name. She certainly cannot be suspected of being a Yanukovich sympathizer. She saw the wounded and the dead herself, and also showed photos to the Estonian minister, who, being not too crazy about Russia himself, wouldn’t go broadcasting the news if he believed it was just a rumour

The Estonian foreign ministry confirmed the leaked conversation was accurate. “So there is a stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych, it was somebody from the new coalition,” Urma

When will they stop trying to fool us?


24 posted on 03/07/2014 12:31:10 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: goldstategop

“As for Crimea - most of it is Russian. It’s not Russia that is living in another world, but the West, led by America that is oblivious to the human rights of the people who live there, including their right to decide their own future.”

The Autonomous Republic of Crimea parliament has voted on joining Russia, with 78 of 81 deputies in favour.

A referendum on the status of Crimea will be held March 16.

The West can accept a democratically elected government to be overthrown by a militant groups and recognize it as fully legal, but they cannot accept the right to self determination of another group through a referendum?

The West supported the secession of a region from another country Serbia through fire force(Kosovo) because of self determination but now cannot support this right to Crimea?

In US it was a strong support for the invasion of Panama, in ‘91, when American citizens were at risk, but would be indignant if this is done to protect Russian citizens in another state ?

It’s highly ironical that the West and the putschistes from Kiev rely on the gesture of a communist drunkard like Krustchev, who attached Crimea to the SSR of Ukraine in 1954, to talk about “legitimacy”.

One one word to expose the hypocrisy of the US and the EU: Yugoslavia.

NATO supported every secessionist group that wanted to break away from Yugoslavia, they bombed Yugoslavia, and they declared the Yugoslav Army to be an occupier on its own territory.

The West can’t have it both ways. They can’t say, for example, that the right of Albanians to self-determination in Kosovo trumps Serbia’s right to territorial integrity, and then turn around and say that Ukraine’s right to territorial integrity trumps the right of Russians in Crimea to self-determination.


25 posted on 03/07/2014 12:47:01 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: goldstategop

Obama said any decisions on the future of Crimea, a pro-Russian area of Ukraine, must include the country’s new government.

“The proposed referendum on the future of Crimea would violate the constitution and violate international law,” Obama said. “We are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders.”

BLAST FROM THE NOT SO FARAWAY PAST

The Assembly of Kosovo, a province of Serbia, approved an unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia on 17 February 2008. Kosovo was soon recognized as a sovereign state by the United States, Turkey, Albania, Austria, Germany, Italy, France, the United Kingdom, and others ...

With the recognition of Kosovo, Russia was free in its approach, including towards the ‘unrecognised republics’ of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Pridnestrovie-Transnistria.

According to Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov at the time: “A precedent is objectively created not just for South Ossetia and Abkhazia but also for an estimated 200 territories around the world. If someone is allowed to do something, many others will expect similar treatment.”


26 posted on 03/07/2014 12:50:52 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Jim Robinson

“Obama, following in Bush’s footsteps, who has repeatedly and cynically flouted international law by launching or backing myriad armed attacks on foreign soil, in Libya, Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan to name a few, without U.N. security council authorization”

Watch this video: When Victoria Nuland was setting up the “new” Maidan-putschist government of Ukraine, as a time (January 2014) when V.Yanoukovih was the legitimately elected president, in a call with US ambassador to Kiev Geoffrey Pyatt

youtu.be/qv7qy7jot30

Washington was heavily meddling in the Ukrainian political crisis by manipulating the pro-EU opposition and helping it in its efforts to oust President Viktor Yanukovich.

It’s just disgusting , anyone who loves freedom should be shocked and appalled by the actions of the US and EU. Many people were killed by putschists on the place, demonstrators AND policemen, so that the US could install a puppet government whose primary aim will no doubt be to antagonise Russia / Putin.

The US was caught red-handed interfering into a sovereign nation’s government. The Maidan-puppet PM Yatsenyuk sold out Ukraine to the USA. It is obvious from the conversation that Yatsenyuk talked to Nuland and the ambassador beforehand.


27 posted on 03/07/2014 12:57:44 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Marguerite; crosslink; maggief

....”The US was caught red-handed interfering into a sovereign nation’s government. The Maidan-puppet PM Yatsenyuk sold out Ukraine to the USA”.......

Amazing that people aren’t seeing this even now...western media are certainly NOT allowing anyone to criticize the Kiev coup or trying to make people understand the Russian view on all this.... They just bash Russia day after day. There’s no balance or criticism of US foreign policy on US news networks.

Aggression by stealth is the covert/overt funding,.....arming...and training... of dissident groups in ‘targeted countries’, with the sole purpose of overthrowing the—very often—democratically elected governments, then installing ‘compliant puppets’ as the new ‘democratic’ leaders...........

These dirty trick tactics have been/are being used by the U.S. against such countries as Venezuela, Granada, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Egypt and others.

The ultimate aim of these operations is to ‘open up’ the targeted countries to Western domination and resource exploitation under the Globalist Agenda for One World Governance.

Venezuela is next as we see unfolding already.


28 posted on 03/07/2014 1:22:47 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

caww

Wow that is quite a list. You may want to go to happy hour and relax. This stuff is getting to you.

I agree with some but please some are a bit out there.

Crosslink


29 posted on 03/07/2014 1:31:29 PM PST by crosslink (Moderates should play in the middle of a busy street)
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To: Marguerite

It was the Berkut that did most all of the shooting.

Spare me the bullshit of how it was the EU, Soros, the CIA and Ukraine Nazis. You should be zotted for all that misdirection garbage you have been bringing to these pages. About the only excuse you have for doing as you have been, is that you are a shrill Jewish female(?) seeing antisemitism as primary mover of every Ukrainian "nationalist" who prefers their nation distanced from the left-over, retread communists turned crony capitalists, of Moscow .

If it wasn't Yanukovych who ordered the shooting done, then someone else possibly, someone in the same Ukraine government/crime syndicate.

Regardless of who (most likely from Party of Regions) ordered it, when it didn't work, Yanukovych ran away, but not before trying to eliminate evidence of his economic crimes.

30 posted on 03/07/2014 1:31:51 PM PST by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: BlueDragon

I hate to keep posting this but if the Crimea wanted the Russians to come in why did this biker group replace the mayor two days before the attack. Because it is a KGB operation . New mayor asks for help. Rinse and repeat throughout region.

I found the article where the Night Wolves motorcycle gang helped replace the mayor days before the invasion. This happened on 2-25 in Sevastopol.

Form the article

“We will not submit to the regime in Kiev,” Dmitry Sinichkin, president of the local branch of motorcycle club the Night Wolves told the crowd in Sevastopol.
The Night Wolves are closely linked to Russia’s political elite. Putin has visited the group in the city several times, on one occasion in 2010 riding a three-wheeled Harley Davidson alongside the bikers.
After his speech, Sinichkin told RIA Novosti that fresh bloodshed in Ukraine’s ongoing political crisis was inevitable.
Rally-goers waved the Russian red, white and blue tricolor and yelled the football fan-style chant of “Ros-si-ya, Ros-si-ya, Ros-si-ya,” as they endorsed calls to create self-defense squads with police cooperation and withhold taxes from Kiev.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140225/187887206/Ethnic-Russian-Rage-Excites-Secession-Talk-in-Ukraines-Crimea.html

More on night wolves

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/28/night-wolves-ukraine-putin-biker-brothers_n_4873315.html?ir=WorldPost


31 posted on 03/07/2014 1:38:21 PM PST by crosslink (Moderates should play in the middle of a busy street)
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To: crosslink

Yeah, dirty pool. I thought this move was silliness at first. What would this be like, George Bush sending Hells Angels? Well, except Hells Angels really are independent minded. Their vices are typically American, but so are their virtues. They wouldn’t have any reason to be part of something like this. The Wolves’ vices are Russian.

In the middle of all this chaos what does the average Crimean really want? Do they regard Russia as boon or bane? We can’t hear it.


32 posted on 03/07/2014 1:43:44 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: crosslink

I don’t think so because the ned game is gaining nations and revenues, resources and those who will co-operate under the Global Agenda.

Gaddaffi and Mubarack told them right to their faces they would not be part of their unified world governance...and they’re gone..

Heck why do you think France was the spearhead in Libya? Gaddafi said he would not co-operate with Sarkosi’s Mediterrain Group for dominance over the Mediterrainian...which was Sarkosi’s plan that EU initally opposed but then were willing to incoperate his group into the EU push.

Morsi was initially compliant and willing, using the long arm of the Muslim Brotherhood throughout the ME, as they are organized and can do so, was the plan, and remains so...even though Morsi got power hungry too fast and upset the initial plans.

One of the reasons we don’t get the whole picture is because our news agencies control what we’re told, and or withheld.

How often our MSM agencies report anything other then one crisis over the next on the world stage...they don’t...you have to go to foreign news agencies to see who is uniting with who, who’s seeing who, and the groups and organizations organizing.


33 posted on 03/07/2014 1:44:07 PM PST by caww
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To: crosslink

I don’t think so because the ned game is gaining nations and revenues, resources and those who will co-operate under the Global Agenda.

Gaddaffi and Mubarack told them right to their faces they would not be part of their unified world governance...and they’re gone..

Heck why do you think France was the spearhead in Libya? Gaddafi said he would not co-operate with Sarkosi’s Mediterrain Group for dominance over the Mediterrainian...which was Sarkosi’s plan that EU initally opposed but then were willing to incoperate his group into the EU push.

Morsi was initially compliant and willing, using the long arm of the Muslim Brotherhood throughout the ME, as they are organized and can do so, was the plan, and remains so...even though Morsi got power hungry too fast and upset the initial plans.

One of the reasons we don’t get the whole picture is because our news agencies control what we’re told, and or withheld.

How often our MSM agencies report anything other then one crisis over the next on the world stage...they don’t...you have to go to foreign news agencies to see who is uniting with who, who’s seeing who, and the groups and organizations organizing.


34 posted on 03/07/2014 1:44:07 PM PST by caww
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To: crosslink
So? Those more sympathetic to Russia are being stirred up.

It's an easy thing for the Kremlin to do.

If one cannot see that part of things (I'm not saying you don't, but some here don't, believing every Kremlin lie -- there are new ones every day) then I don't know what to say...
other than the U.S. should be very careful in what it officially says and does.

35 posted on 03/07/2014 1:51:15 PM PST by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: caww; maggief; hoosiermama

I think you do great work here and I have a great deal of respect for all of your contributions to FR. That being said I am one who has many sources of information and have a certain skill set that has given me access to tremendous amounts of info. I will just say to you don’t take your eye off the ball chasing things that are impossible to prove. Continue using your great skills posting information that are sourced and if what your saying is true you will have the facts to back them up.

Crosslink


36 posted on 03/07/2014 1:53:11 PM PST by crosslink (Moderates should play in the middle of a busy street)
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To: caww
Interesting. Soros and the rest of the NWOtards are hellbent on a fascist world order run by banks and the worker drones controlled by fascism-friendly islam.

The Russians are hellbent on a fascist empire run by Russian mobsters and the worker drones controlled by an Orthodox church.

Given a choice between filthy muzzies and Orthodox, Putin's actions are not just entirely understandable, but sensible.

37 posted on 03/07/2014 1:53:35 PM PST by Sirius Lee (All that is required for evil to advance is for government to do "something")
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To: BlueDragon

Agreed, nothing is as it appears.


38 posted on 03/07/2014 1:54:53 PM PST by crosslink (Moderates should play in the middle of a busy street)
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BFL


39 posted on 03/07/2014 2:02:15 PM PST by Faith65 (Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior!)
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To: BlueDragon

Transcript of the telephone conversation between EU Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton and the Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet, which was intercepted and recorded and has been authenticated by the Estonian Foreign Ministry:

Paet: “And still, people are seriously concerned about the fact that the new coalition is unwilling to investigate what really occurred there . The understanding of the fact that somebody from the new coalition, not Yanukovych, was behind those snipers is becoming more and more strengthened with every passing day.”

Ashton: “I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,”

Paet: “And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga Bogomolets told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides.” He also added: “She also showed me some photos and said that as a medical doctor she can say that, the same type of bullets were used on both police and protestors.”

Ashton: “Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”

youtu.be/ZEgJ0oo3OA8

youtu.be/eXp-SiMXbnU

Olga Bogomolets, who gave the information to the Estonian minister, is a public figure and a respectable doctor, who has actually taken part in the Maidan movement from the onset and was tending to the wounded victims herself, along with other doctors. You can google her name. She certainly cannot be suspected of being a Yanukovich sympathizer. She saw the wounded and the dead herself, and also showed photos to the Estonian minister, who, being not too crazy about Russia himself, wouldn’t go broadcasting the news if he believed it was just a rumour.


40 posted on 03/07/2014 2:11:57 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: caww

“Aggression by stealth is the covert/overt funding,.....arming...and training... of dissident groups in ‘targeted countries’, with the sole purpose of overthrowing the—very often—democratically elected governments, then installing ‘compliant puppets’ as the new ‘democratic’ leaders.”

A leaked phone call between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet has revealed that the two discussed that the blame of the killing of civilian protesters in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, is on the radical militiamen rather than the government police forces.

youtu.be/ZEgJ0oo3OA8

youtu.be/eXp-SiMXbnU

Olga Bogomolets, who gave the information to the Estonian minister, is a public figure and a respectable doctor, who has actually taken part in the Maidan movement from the onset and was tending to the wounded victims herself, along with other doctors. You can google her name. She certainly cannot be suspected of being a Yanukovich sympathizer. She saw the wounded and the dead herself, and also showed photos to the Estonian minister, who, being not too crazy about Russia himself, wouldn’t go broadcasting the news if he believed it was just a rumour

The Estonian foreign ministry confirmed the leaked conversation was accurate.

Transcript quips from the telephone conversation:

Paet: “And still, people are seriously concerned about the fact that the new coalition is unwilling to investigate what really occurred there . The understanding of the fact that somebody from the new coalition, not Yanukovych, was behind those snipers is becoming more and more strengthened with every passing day.”

Ashton: “I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,”

Paet: “And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga Bogomolets told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides.” He also added: “She also showed me some photos and said that as a medical doctor she can say that, the same type of bullets were used on both police and protestors.”

Ashton: “Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”

Ashton says it is terrible but the fact that there has been no outcry from the European Union and no calls from the European Commission for an investigation, which should have come right after she hung up the phone!


41 posted on 03/07/2014 2:17:07 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Sirius Lee; crosslink; maggief
Naive protesters who believed the propaganda that EU membership offered a better life are due to lose half of their pension by April. ...(Greece all over again)

.... They believed by joining the EU they would have easy street and all would be well... Instead they are getting cuts in their pensions and an IMF austerity plan. ...better said WE will control your country's finances..... plan will cut Ukrainian pensions from $160 to $80 so that Western bankers who lent money to Ukraine can be repaid

The 11 billion euros that the EU is offering Kiev is NOT It a loan...rather it's set with tight restrictions and control.. austerity plan will cut social services, funds for education, layoff government workers etc...

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/05/propaganda-rules-news-paul-craig-roberts/

http://www.kommersant.ua/doc/2424454

42 posted on 03/07/2014 2:32:35 PM PST by caww
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To: Marguerite
Yes, I've been aware of this finding once it was reported...

Crazy reporting out there...am really angry at our media and those who aren't taking time to see what's happening on the ground...this is so much like Egypt when SISI and the Egyptian protesters were being blamed for all the killings, when in fact it was the Muslim Brotherhood and their terrorist people consistently to blame....even to shooting their own people...but the press took months before they untangled the mess, so they were falsely reporting most of the time.

This is what is happening...the thugs are in control of most of Ukraine and using their own oligarch militias to create what keeps getting reported wrongly as Putin's Russian Army creating these happenings...Then you have Ukrainian Military and the Russian Military on the ground....the dust has yet to settle and none are accurately reporting on who the players are in this field.

Reporters are going through the same things they did in Egypt because they refuse to identify all the players in the field.....and alienating those who are trying to stabilize the country..... Then reporters wonder why they get beat up and removed....they are seen as propaganda machines....which most are

43 posted on 03/07/2014 2:59:27 PM PST by caww
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To: Sirius Lee

....” Putin’s actions are not just entirely understandable, but sensible”....

Yep...not that I think he’s a good guy...but people need to hear what he is saying about who the players are....HE knows well who the thugs and terrorists are over in that turf....and he also knows how nation states like to use them.

I just can’t hardly stand the idea this Adimistration and our politicians have sunk so low they will use the tactics they are in other nations. It’s worse than disgusting.

They stick McCain into these situations because he’s so senile and so in love with himself that he cares not what’s really happening as long as he’s in the news.....he’s the scapegoat for Obama......he’s “Republican” even if name only.


44 posted on 03/07/2014 3:10:10 PM PST by caww
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To: Marguerite

I was reading Lukacs last night. Hitler and Stalin 1941.

In it he says he chose the name of the book and its approach because to see it a a collision of nations, ideologies, historical states and the like did it little justice. It was at root and under analysis, a conflict between two individuals or “actors.”

We would like to not personalize history to grand figures, but we have to be honest with our analysis and little actors, prompt middle actors and then empower major actors. All the talk of historical motivations, religion, ideology, economics and the like often has us ignore the true analysis — the players.

Statesmen, tyrants, scholars or dictators, we have to remember that following the movers and shakers of history is often what will allow us to see the truth.

Putin, as vile as he is, is a major mover and shaker. Obama, on the world stage, not so much.


45 posted on 03/07/2014 3:13:54 PM PST by KC Burke (Officially since Memorial Day they are the Gimmie-crat Party.ha)
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The Guardian’s Simon Tisdall, anti-Semitism, and the “Arab street”
http://cifwatch.com/2011/02/13/the-guardians-simon-tisdall-anti-semitism-and-the-arab-street/


46 posted on 03/07/2014 5:24:36 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Marguerite

I guess you have not noticed that this Olga is merely being attributed to having said something, by the Estonian.

Instead of listening to what others claim she says, how about digging a bit into what she has said a bit more directly?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/28/ukraine-s-mother-teresa-of-the-maidan.html

From that article;

Last November, Bogomolets’ heart called her to organize volunteer medical aid for the very first protesters injured by Berkut police. She said that at the time, state hospitals refused to admit injured protesters under instructions given by the government. Using her contacts, she tried to stop hospitals from letting police arrest the injured activists. Someof the injured were being detained right after they awoke from anesthesia. Bogomolets’ office became a storage facility—big plastic bags labeled as “syringes,” “bandages,” “pain killers” and other first aid medicine contributed from embassies piled up right under social art and modern paintings on the walls.

Just on the first day the fighting began on Feb. 18, the center of Kiev was flooded with 1,500 wounded people, Bogomolets said. She worked in the House of Officers together with other doctors, struggling to handle gravely wounded. That day, two patients died under her care—men shot in the neck by snipers. On the most critical moment, when the shooting reached the doorstep of the House of Officers, Bogomolets made a crucial decision to evacuate the hospital to her office, before the Berkut took over their medical supplies. Male surgeons working with her said she was their "courageous leader" for organizing the corridor for the evacuation.

Since then, Bogomolets and her colleagues have been busy lining up humanitarian help for the country. “We have already organized treatment for over 60 patients in Europe, in a few days we are expecting an airplane from America,” Bogomolets said. The country needed international involvement in reforming Ukraine’s ministries, she believes: “I suggested a full international audit of the health ministry,” she said.

She has been a powerful witness against the Berkut. For that, they must try to silence her, doing so by manipulating this story through the Estonian, twisting and turning her from being witness against the Kremlin backed power-tripper criminals, to being now against those of Ukraine who were of the "opposition".

Your lies published daily on these pages wear me out.

Instead of believing what you have been saying here for the last week --- try digging a little deeper. Try to falsify your own thesis, just to see if those can stand.

You will see that that don't, or only on the wobbliest of legs if at all.

There is more at the link provided above.

Try these on for size also --->http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/07/anne-applebaum-vladimir-putins-western-enablers/ the article there appearing also in Salon, but I prefer to not link to that site.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/05/george-jonas-standing-up-to-putin/

and check this out---> http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/04/russian-troops-called-into-crimea-by-former-ukraine-president-russias-un-ambassador-says/

What the Berkut could not do, now Yanukovych wants the Russian military to do for him (and his cabal). How convenient!... And they make up lies about Russians being picked upon in the Crimea. Do you believe them? You seem to believe every other Kremlin fairy tale.

47 posted on 03/07/2014 6:58:31 PM PST by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: SunkenCiv
And who was it that provided the know-how to the Iranians for Uranium enrichment?

Can you say Vladimir? I knew you could


48 posted on 03/07/2014 7:05:55 PM PST by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: BlueDragon

Who are these posters flooding this forum with the Moscow propaganda? I’d rather think that they are paid agents of influence, but I’m afraid they are merely Lenin’s useful idiots, Joe Palookas, faithful listeners of some ignorant radio blabbermouths, paranoid Soros haters, and victims themselves of the relentless Soviet propaganda of the past 50 years.


49 posted on 03/07/2014 7:06:08 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: Revolting cat!
My own guess is that it's a mix such as you have spoken of.

But some may be pros.

50 posted on 03/07/2014 7:13:25 PM PST by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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