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Two Of The GOP's Top Presidential Prospects Are Engaged In A Very Public Feud
Business Insider ^ | March 10, 2014 | Brett LoGiurato

Posted on 03/10/2014 4:35:26 PM PDT by Mariner

On Saturday, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul won the presidential straw poll at the Conservative Political Action Conference by a landslide for the second consecutive year. Conservative firebrand Texas Sen. Ted Cruz came in second, but he actually gained the most ground of any candidate year-over-year.

On Sunday, Cruz began making a play to draw foreign policy distinctions between himself and Paul, both of whom are considered two of the GOP's top presidential prospects.

"I'm a big fan of Rand Paul. He and I are good friends," Cruz said on ABC's "This Week" Sunday. "I don't agree with him on foreign policy. I think U.S. leadership is critical in the world. And I agree with him that we should be very reluctant to deploy military force abroad. But I think there is a vital role, just as Ronald Reagan did. ... The United States has a responsibility to defend our values."

Cruz's comments came two days after Paul thrilled the CPAC audience by blasting President Barack Obama's drone policy. However, Paul didn't mention the preeminent ongoing geopolitical conflict — the crisis in Ukraine.

Paul's noninterventionist views on foreign policy have attracted a libertarian-leaning crowd. In the CPAC straw poll, 57 percent of respondents, when asked about the U.S.'s "role in the world," identified with this statement: "N early 70 years after the end of World War II, it's time for our European, Asian and other allies to provide for their own defense."

Only 37 percent, on the other hand, agreed with this statement: " As the world's only superpower, the U.S. needs to continue to bear the responsibility of protecting our allies in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world."

(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Alaska; US: Florida; US: Kentucky; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: alaska; florida; kentucky; marcorubio; randsconcerntrolls; sarahpalin; tedcruz; texas
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I thought I'd throw a little chum into the water so we Freepers can get this talked out.

Personally, I don't think the US Military should be used to "defend our values". That's what we did in Kosovo and Libya...darn near in Syria. I think that's both silly and dangerous.

I believe we should focus instead on defending our critical interests.

Our fighting men and women are tiring. We're running out of money. We need to come home and regroup...replace equipment. Rest. Train. Introduce new equipment and tactics. Build, Build Build.

Our critical, strategic interests will be at stake soon enough.

1 posted on 03/10/2014 4:35:26 PM PDT by Mariner
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To: Mariner

Unlike what the press thinks, I believe that public discourse is a GOOD thing


2 posted on 03/10/2014 4:39:11 PM PDT by 12chachacha (Sucker??)
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To: Mariner

Winning the CPAC straw poll is not much better than winning some online poll. CPAC skews young and libertarian, of course Rand Paul and his father are going to win there. Nature abhors a vacuum, if the United States isn’t the leader, Russia, China or the Caliphate will step in and lead the world.


3 posted on 03/10/2014 4:39:46 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I will raise $2M for Sarah Palin's next run, what will you do?)
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To: Mariner

Agree 100%.


4 posted on 03/10/2014 4:41:24 PM PDT by SatinDoll (A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN IS BORN IN THE USA OF USA CITIZEN PARENTS)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

So, this was about Ted Cruz and whoever....


5 posted on 03/10/2014 4:43:23 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Mariner

I don’t think American troops should be used to defend the interests of multinational corporations and global bankers.


6 posted on 03/10/2014 4:47:16 PM PDT by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"Winning the CPAC straw poll is not much better than winning some online poll"

Nobody, including me, gives any credence to that silly poll. I watching what each of them says, does and writes.

I have a disconnect with Paul on immigration , and Cruz makes me uneasy with the slight aroma of Neo Con.

But I think both of them have the courage of their convictions.

7 posted on 03/10/2014 4:51:35 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: freedomfiter2
"I don’t think American troops should be used to defend the interests of multinational corporations and global bankers"

Sometimes that can be our interests too. We need to be careful to make our own decisions as a people.

Sometimes our interest can overlap with those guys.

But, to your point, they are often divergent.

8 posted on 03/10/2014 4:53:36 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: Mariner

We are required to help our allies if we have a treaty. I have absolutely no problems with that.


9 posted on 03/10/2014 4:54:54 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: ConservativeMind
"We are required to help our allies if we have a treaty"

Agreed. Every time and without equivocation.

10 posted on 03/10/2014 4:56:26 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: Mariner
Personally, I don't think the US Military should be used to "defend our values".

Me neither. Although I have never heard Rand Paul speak, I have heard he is superior to Cruz. Although I would love to see Cruz get the nomination, I could be happy enough with Paul. I do think Paul has a better shot at the nomination. There are a lot of young people who are big fans of his father.

11 posted on 03/10/2014 4:57:40 PM PDT by old and tired
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To: Mariner
I don't think the US Military should be used to "defend our values". That's what we did in Kosovo and Libya...darn near in Syria. I think that's both silly and dangerous.

I do, but its a mistake to let communists, Saudi royals, and Muslim Brotherhood decide what those interests are.

12 posted on 03/10/2014 4:57:58 PM PDT by marron
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To: Mariner

Fair enough, and I certainly agree about open debate. And it’s still early in the game, so everyone knows these polls are meaningless for any other purpose than chatter.

But the dilemma will be how to avoid a repeat of the circular firing squad where conservatives, liberatarians, and moderate “Reagan Democrat types” who are sick and tires of Obama and his brand of “hopey changey” will sacrifice the good for the sake of the perfect. Some are going to jump on every Rand Paul thread with anti-libertarian hatred and some are going to maintain that Ted Cruz isn’t eligible to be POTUS right up to election day.

We need to remember who the real enemy is, and to bear the Buckley Rule in mind and get behind “the most conservative candidate THAT CAN WIN”.


13 posted on 03/10/2014 5:01:05 PM PDT by bigbob (The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. Abraham Lincoln)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Russia, China or the Caliphate will step in and lead the world.


If any of those were capable of leading the world, they would have done so by now. Their Constitutions are lacking.

The only reason the US has slipped is that our enemies, mostly domestic, have steamrolled over the Constitution that was engineered to keep us above and beyond the rule of man.


14 posted on 03/10/2014 5:01:08 PM PDT by txhurl
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To: Mariner

“”Back in Kentucky, McConnell’s campaign literature reflects the support of Paul with a prominently placed “Rand Paul endorsed” seal on direct mailing sent out this month.””


15 posted on 03/10/2014 5:01:52 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: ansel12
"“”Back in Kentucky, McConnell’s campaign literature reflects the support of Paul with a prominently placed “Rand Paul endorsed” seal on direct mailing sent out this month.””

Yeah, that's disgusting.

Point made.

16 posted on 03/10/2014 5:04:02 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: Mariner

To the extant that they benefit, they should foot the bill and send their children to die.


17 posted on 03/10/2014 5:04:42 PM PDT by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: old and tired

I like Paul and Cruz, and it’s okay that they aren’t identical.
Either one would be light years better than the last two options we have had for POTUS.
That said, you would do well to listen to both Paul and Cruz. They are both intellectually superior to anyone we have had in the WH in many years.
They are also both very articulate.
I don’t think anyone (in the primary or general election) can match Cruz in a debate.


18 posted on 03/10/2014 5:05:47 PM PDT by Clump ( the tree of liberty is withering like a stricken fig tree)
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To: Mariner

This is another GOPe versus conservative battle, there is nothing new to this.

The rinos/libertarians against conservatism.


19 posted on 03/10/2014 5:06:12 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: bigbob
"But the dilemma will be how to avoid a repeat of the circular firing squad "

I thought the last primary cycles was healthy.

Granted, Romney was NOT my man, but he was no Dole or McCain either.

We need to debate early...and hell, I would support the GOP Contenders announcing, and having debates in 40 Holiday Inns across the country over the next two years...before the Primaries.

20 posted on 03/10/2014 5:07:56 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: txhurl

China and Russia aren’t as strong as people think; their respective economies have the illusion of strength, but if you look beneath the surface, you will see in the case of China a massive credit bubble (and credit bubbles don’t end well) and in Russia’s case a kleptocratic economy that is far too dependent on resources exports; Russia’s economy lacks diversity.

In the case of a caliphate, there simply isn’t one. The last caliphate sputtered to an end when the Ottoman Empire fell in 1923. Turkey, in theory, could be a major leader in the Islamic world, but with its fractious nature - not to mention an ongoing transnational Sunni/Shia religious war, akin to Europe’s Thirty Years’ War - the Turks would have far greater success in herding cats.

They have the potential to be a leading Islamic power, but it won’t be with Erdogan; he’s far too much his own worst enemy. And it won’t be Fetullah Gülen either. I don’t see that happening for another decade at least.


21 posted on 03/10/2014 5:09:08 PM PDT by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
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To: ansel12
"The rinos/libertarians against conservatism"

You know the little (l)ibertarians are split about evenly between Paul, Cruz and Palin, right?

If the GOP cannot, will not, make peace with the libertarians they'll likely not be winning many election henceforth.

Please, don't take that the wrong way. It's just my opinion based on how I see the country lining up.

22 posted on 03/10/2014 5:11:21 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: txhurl

The Caliphate is on the move and now has atomic weapons. That behooves those of us with MIRVed thermonuclear weapons and lasers to keep a sharp eye out.


23 posted on 03/10/2014 5:14:24 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I will raise $2M for Sarah Palin's next run, what will you do?)
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To: Mariner

PAUL/RYAN 2016!

(Just Goofin’...)


24 posted on 03/10/2014 5:15:00 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (I don't have 'Hobbies.' I'm developing a robust Post-Apocalyptic skill set...)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Nature abhors a vacuum, if the United States isn’t the leader, Russia, China or the Caliphate will step in and lead the world.

Exactly. In this interconnected world the ostrich approach will doom you as in "you may want to ignore the outside world however the outside world is not going to ignore you"  We can try and ignore the Greater Muslim Jihad, ignore China's and Russia's rise but they will not ignore America.

China and Russia can get together with a few others (like Iran) and really screw the US dollar. Then all those self-concerned me me me me me me myself and I libertarians will cry how all imported items cost 4x much as before due to the collapsing of the US Dollar engineered by the above nations

25 posted on 03/10/2014 5:15:11 PM PDT by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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Typical antagonism from BI.


26 posted on 03/10/2014 5:18:48 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: Mariner

There is no such thing as little l and big l, there is only l.

If you were a conservative, then you would not be calling your self libertarian, you call yourself libertarian because you are to the left of conservatives, and are opposing conservatism.

Libertarianism is a way to promote liberalism within the GOP and join with the GOPe and the openly left, in cutting off conservatism and God, and traditional America, and killing it, once and for all.


27 posted on 03/10/2014 5:20:28 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: Clump

I like both Cruz and Paul also, but I’m leery of Senators as candidates, particularly if they never ran anything prior to becoming a Senator. I’m hoping some current or former governor will emerge. I would support Palin if she commits to running early, but I don’t think she wants to run. I’m assuming she won’t unless she comes out clearly and early. Scott Walker might be a possibility. He’s certainly shown he’s tough enough, though I haven’t really heard where he stands on a lot of issues. No telling who else may emerge.


28 posted on 03/10/2014 5:20:45 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: Mariner

57 percent of respondents, when asked about the U.S.’s “role in the world,” identified with this statement:

“Nearly 70 years after the end of World War II, it’s time for our European, Asian and other allies to provide for their own defense.”

Only 37 percent, on the other hand, agreed with this statement:

” As the world’s only superpower, the U.S. needs to continue to bear the responsibility of protecting our allies in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world.”

I associate myself with both of those. The only reason Europe & Asia don’t protect themselves is because THEY don’t have to. WE do it for them. It’s time for a change.

No more nation building, no more world policeman. Our military is far too precious to be wasted (killed & wounded) on such political fantasies.


29 posted on 03/10/2014 5:27:44 PM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: Mariner
I thought the last primary cycles was healthy.

I don't think the Romney win was "healthy."

In running for a high office, it is necessary to draw distinctions between yourself and the other candidates, but, as the Wicked Witch of the West said, "These things must be done...delicately." It has to be done in a way that allows the followers of the other candidates to rejoin the party under a common banner. After the battles are over, one has to find a way to live with the vanquished. Romney's Primary wins were anything but "delicate." His tactic was simple: Bury any candidate that challenges in the polls under tons of negative campaign ad buys. Lie if necessary. Accept the aid of Gloria Allred if you must. One by one, he picked them off.

In that process of winning by scorched Earth, he won very little support from the vanquished candidates' supporters. He left too many people who said, "I'll stay home before I vote for the bastard who destroyed my favorite with lies!"

There was a reason Reagan had his "Eleventh Commandment." He understood what I just described. You have to win, but how you win matters just as much. If we learned a "healthy" lesson from the '12 Primaries, it's that we can't let people like Romney dominate the field by destroying everybody else.

30 posted on 03/10/2014 5:28:46 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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To: Mariner

I think the idiots in the media are trying to turn a “non-issue” into a fight to divide conservatives. It worked last time and we ended up with Romney.


31 posted on 03/10/2014 5:29:37 PM PDT by vmivol00 (I won't be reconstructed.)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

P/P........ Paul/Palin.


32 posted on 03/10/2014 5:32:32 PM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: Cyber Liberty
"If we learned a "healthy" lesson from the '12 Primaries, it's that we can't let people like Romney dominate the field by destroying everybody else. "

I can't agree more.

But that's what we'll get from the GOPe candidate...not Cruz or Paul. Or Palin.

That will come from Jeb Bush or some other scumbag.

Chamber of Commerce and Lobby Inc.

You know, the existing GOP.

We have to settle in on an insurgent, and outsider.

33 posted on 03/10/2014 5:37:07 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: ansel12

Whatever.


34 posted on 03/10/2014 5:38:18 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: Mariner; jazusamo; SoConPubbie; P-Marlowe
Paul's noninterventionist views on foreign policy have attracted a libertarian-leaning crowd. In the CPAC straw poll, 57 percent of respondents, when asked about the U.S.'s "role in the world," identified with this statement: "N early 70 years after the end of World War II, it's time for our European, Asian and other allies to provide for their own defense."

Only 37 percent, on the other hand, agreed with this statement: " As the world's only superpower, the U.S. needs to continue to bear the responsibility of protecting our allies in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world."

A false contrast. US allies should be providing their own defense as the first question suggests. The 2nd question, though, should be: "As the world's only superpower, in order to avoid great loss of life in establishing D-Day type beachheads on other continents, the US should work with other nations to maintain forward staging areas, especially in vulnerable regions."

35 posted on 03/10/2014 5:38:46 PM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: Mariner

Yeah, whatever to this.

“Libertarianism is a way to promote liberalism within the GOP and join with the GOPe and the openly left, in cutting off conservatism and God, and traditional America, and killing it, once and for all.”

No conservative would think that the end of America is a “whatever”.


36 posted on 03/10/2014 5:41:44 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: Mariner

Paul is embracing the GOPe against the Cruz/Palin/Reagan wing of the party.

He is hoping to either be the nominee, or to cut off the conservative right, or both if he can.


37 posted on 03/10/2014 5:44:25 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: faucetman

Cute, Palin won’t be running this time, so you want Paul over Cruz, who is the Palin/Reagan conservative.


38 posted on 03/10/2014 5:45:56 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: Mariner
I thought the last primary cycles was healthy. Granted, Romney was NOT my man, but he was no Dole or McCain either.

Romney was the most hard left radical the GOP has ever nominated, a complete disaster who dominated and destroyed two election cycles as revenge against the right, and a traditional America that he had hated his entire life.

39 posted on 03/10/2014 5:49:42 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: ansel12
I am a member of the Republican Party and have been since I cast my first vote for Reagan in the '76 primaries.

If you'd like to push me and my kind out, go ahead. Take your shot.

I happen to believe the Federal Government should stay out of many of the issues I suspect you disagree with LIBERTARIANS on. That's for the states to decide...and/or when necessary, 3/4 of the states in ratification of Amendments.

I'll vote in the GOP primary in my state, and may the best man win.

I respect that you have an opinion on what will destroy the country and what will further it.

I have one too. It's unlikely we'll agree...but I'm OK with it.

It's not like I'd stay home in 2016 because Santorum won the nomination. I'd vote for ANY non-GOPe candidate against ANY Democrat. But I have to admit I've lost my patience with those GOPe guys.

I swore to myself that Romney would be the last time I'd vote for the filth the establishment party had become.

40 posted on 03/10/2014 5:54:34 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: Mariner

Correct, has to come out of the machine to be another Romney, who had been running a low-level campaign since 2008. That meant in 2012 it was “his turn,” so he was always the assumed leader. To win the shot at the big chair, he only had to not lose.

This season is already different because it isn’t anybody’s “turn.” It’s not Jeb’s or Chris’s or Marco’s seat to lose. GOPe doesn’t have a default win this time. That is the one thing that gives me hope going into ‘16.

Nobody is going to get this Nomination without building a Party to do it.


41 posted on 03/10/2014 5:55:46 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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To: 12chachacha

At FR that discourse has been going on for quite awhile. Along with the requisite throwing of furniture.


42 posted on 03/10/2014 5:56:35 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Guns SAVE Lives! www.VCDL.org)
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To: ansel12
Paul is embracing the GOPe against the Cruz/Palin/Reagan wing of the party.

Yup. That's exactly what he's doing, he's tacking his sails. Like this:


43 posted on 03/10/2014 5:58:37 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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To: ansel12

Dang ansel. It took you 15 posts to start in with the antilibertarian vitriol. I’d have bet on no more than 10.

You’re slipping.


44 posted on 03/10/2014 6:00:12 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Guns SAVE Lives! www.VCDL.org)
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To: ansel12
"Romney was the most hard left radical the GOP has ever nominated"

Hell, the man was a paragon to conservatism compared to McCain in darn near every respect.

Then, look back in the party history to say, oh, Nixon.

Remember wage and price controls?

No, Romney (and I don't like the ba$tard either) has not been the farthest left GOP Presidential candidate...and some of those to the left him won. Amazingly.

George HW Bush anyone?

Hell, even the son, GW, put conservatism on it's back. He and the GOP Congress set spending records that I thought would never be broken until Obama came along. He even sponsored the "TARP" bill to bail out stupid investors.

What kind of conservative does that?

45 posted on 03/10/2014 6:02:50 PM PDT by Mariner (uely)
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To: Mariner
Only 37 percent, on the other hand, agreed with this statement: " As the world's only superpower, the U.S. needs to continue to bear the responsibility of protecting our allies in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world."

Well, I suppose that makes me a part of the 37 percent.

Please note, however, that this does not necessarily require boots on the ground. In fact, I would certainly not support the idea of our placing American military personnel in Crimea now, to oppose the Russians.

But I would support our sending advanced weaponry to the Ukrainian rebels. And not just small arms, either--AK 47s really do not hold up very well against T-90 tanks--but sophisticated warplanes and tanks, with which to oppose the Russian invaders.

46 posted on 03/10/2014 6:05:13 PM PDT by AmericanExceptionalist (Democrats believe in discussing the full spectrum of ideas, all the way from far left to center-left)
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To: old and tired
Me neither. Although I have never heard Rand Paul speak, I have heard he is superior to Cruz.

Did you also here he has his own Amnesty plan?
47 posted on 03/10/2014 6:05:41 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency)
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To: Mariner

You’re wasting your time. There are a few FReepers who live for the opportunity to jump on any mildly pro-libertarian comment. They’re fanatics. They view libertarians as heretics against the True Conservative Faith.

Its funny in a way because there are numerous legitimate arguments against libertarian positions that get ignored in the rush to attack.


48 posted on 03/10/2014 6:09:32 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Guns SAVE Lives! www.VCDL.org)
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To: Mariner
I am a member of the Republican Party and have been since I cast my first vote for Reagan in the '76 primaries. If you'd like to push me and my kind out, go ahead. Take your shot. I happen to believe the Federal Government should stay out of many of the issues I suspect you disagree with LIBERTARIANS on. That's for the states to decide...and/or when necessary, 3/4 of the states in ratification of Amendments.

That is one way to tell conservatives to shut up and allow gay marriage in the military and for federal employees. and in immigration, and abortion for the military, and to pretend that the libertarian agenda is not a cultural agenda for all levels of government.

49 posted on 03/10/2014 6:14:58 PM PDT by ansel12 (Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism.)
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To: RKBA Democrat; ansel12; Mariner

If we can’t get people who call themselves “libertarian” to vote for our guy, we’re dead because we don’t have the numbers without them. So no punching or gouging. And let’s try to keep the furniture on the floor.


50 posted on 03/10/2014 6:17:39 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (H.L. Mencken: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.")
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