Skip to comments.Sharp Changes in Altitude and Course After Jet Lost Contact
Posted on 03/14/2014 4:42:45 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan
SEPANG, Malaysia Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 experienced significant changes in altitude after it lost contact with ground control, and altered its course more than once as if still under the command of a pilot, American officials and others familiar with the investigation said Friday.
Radar signals recorded by the Malaysian military appear to show the missing airliner climbing to 45,000 feet, above the approved altitude limit for a Boeing 777-200, soon after it disappeared from civilian radar and made a sharp turn to the west, according to a preliminary assessment by a person familiar with the data.
(Excerpt) Read more at mobile.nytimes.com ...
I was watching CNN now(I am no fan of CNN but I have to give Erin Burnett credit her program has been very informative these past few days) they had on John Nance I believe his name is, and from what he said, which makes the most sense..to put a plane at that high an altitude could have only been for one purpose, to kill off the passengers since they would not have been able to breathe at that high an altitude..meanwhile, those in the cockpit could have kept on breathing for as long as they needed..whoever was in the cockpit wanted the passengers killed off so they could continue on their way, it was the plane that they wanted
Just like I’ve been sayin’!
China will hold Malaysia responsible for airport security lapses and poor screening of pilots.
Things were bad at home with one of the two pilots --he was losing his spouse and his kids. Maybe he also has some professional problems with the airline --impending job loss?
He kills the other pilot, then depressurizes the plane to knock out all the passengers. He briefly hears a banging on the cockpit door, but it subsides after 1 minute, then stops totally: the widely-imagined battle royal for survival by the passengers is a non-event. He shuts down both transponders and all comms.
He flies on, on oxygen, contemplating his life, the passengers meanwhile dying from oxygen deprivation. He turns the plane dramatically, beginning a suicidal dive, plunging 40,000 feet in just one minute, only to chicken out.
He flies on for hours, silently trying to summon up the courage to end it all. His indecision is overtaken by his fuel situation, and on vapors he finally slams into the ocean, knocking himself out and dying.
Scenario 2: Hijack
The two Lothario pilots invite the 2 most attractive women on the plane into the cockpit, the better to impress them with their studly technical skill. This habit of theirs had been previously noted by other more radical passengers and quietly passed up the command chain, who dispatched comely young women to "coincidentally" fly in their plane.
During their cockpit party the pilots are overcome by a sedative secreted into their drinks. The women unlock the cockpit door, later accessed by a completely calm and properly trained hijack pilot clicking a pen and holding a clip-board --as with the previous scenario there is no life-or-death fight with the passengers.
He throws aside his silly name-tag and clip-board and immediately depressurizes the plane --the passengers are knocked out and later die. The transponders are turned off, they dive for the deck and turn to their destination four hours away --a 4,000 foot airstrip controlled by their fellow believers.
Immediately upon touching down the spoilers are activated, they apply maximum brake pressure and hit the thrust reversers on the pair of massive engines --the plane lurches, strains and jostles, but rolls to a halt at the very edge of their makeshift runway.
Dented technicals --pickups packed with angry-looking armed men-- stream onto the strip, guiding the behemoth aircraft packed with suffocated passengers to a rocky crag, with burly, bearded men camouflaging the aircraft even as the engines spool down.
Non-minaturized nukes are heavy, and a re-painted civvy a/c like the 777 will make a perfect delivery platform at 3,000 feet on a clear day at 10:00 am over a major city, the better to teach the non-believers with Allah's blinding white flash.
3/9/2014, 12:41:06 PM · 78 of 94
BuckeyeTexan to Capt. Tom
I have a few really stupid questions. Please excuse my complete ignorance.
What would happen to a 777 if, theoretically, hijackers attempted to fly the plane well beyond its 43,100 foot max service ceiling? (e.g. above troposphere at 7°N or ~ 55,000 feet)
Engines stall and plane dives? Fuselage implodes, explodes, disintegrates?
Everyone is speculating about a suicide dive. What about the opposite? Clearly they couldnt sustain enough thrust to take her straight up, but how high could they take her and what would be the result, theoretically?
One of the pilots went jihadi. The Malaysians don’t seem very interested in investigating them.
Scenario 3: Both pilots are terrorists. With assistance from grounds crew members who are in on the game they fuel up the jet with more fuel than normally scheduled for that particular flight. ...
But it could still be a robbery-hijack.
Apparently the authorities have settled on the story that the plane turned west and kept flying for hours.
It makes what Nance said seem accurate, if the change in altitude by that amount is accurate..kill off the passengers for what purpose, if the whole point was to commit suicide why even do that, then the plane went down to 25,000 then back up to regular altitude and continued on their way..if the whole point was to “Go Jihadi” and do what the pilot in EgyptAir did, what was the 45,000 altitude meant for, other than getting rid of the passengers in the easiest way possible
If the plane was hijacked to steal it, and it is not at the bottom of the ocean, it needs a very long runway to land. How many of those are there in the middle of the Indian Ocean?? Certainly records exist of runway lengths in that part of the world. How can you hide a 777 on land ?
I tell ya, when this is all said and done your gonna look like freakin Nostradamus and Im not being sarcastic
Actually that is NOT true..according to a former pilot who was on Greta last night, he said that a 777 can “Easily” land on a airstrip that is about 3500 feet, but he said if the plane wanted to take off again, THAT would be VERY difficult to do, it can be done, but it would drain half the fuel because a plane of that size needs a long runway
A guy on Fox was just suggesting this could be the result of a physical struggle over autopilot being turned off/on.
Nah, the brakes on that thing are especially massive, and the thrust reversers are powerful —it is hardly a STOL bush plane, but in the commercial world the 777 is known for being able to stomach relatively short landings.
It typically needs about 4,000 feet for a “short” landing.
The main risk would be that the huge underslung engines might inject foreign objects from a crudely-finished surface (stones, lots of sand/dirt).
I’d be looking real close at the co-pilot. He’s was the right age to catch sudden jihadi syndrome.
Could be, going up to THAT extreme altitude that not even a flight simulator can do would serve no purpose except to kill the passengers, if there was some kind of struggle, what happened after wards, and how come the pilots didnt put in the hijacking code
Funny, this youtube video of radar evidence suggested the sudden jump in altitude ...days ago
Busted! Flight Radar Caught Changing Flight Path of Malaysia Flight 370!. Now has over a million views.
Thoroughly baffling. The more we learn the less we know.
Today they say the plane quickly climbed to well over its safety level to 45,000 ft. .then suddenly dropped to about 23,000??? Would this effectively kill the passengers ?
It would seem there is a deliberate drip of information and what is provided is conflicting and contradictory.
We’re told the manifest has now been completely vetted and no possible terrorists were aboard. Is this true?
It’s really unsettling to have an extraordinary event occur with barely any facts disclosed to the public.
I don’t know, but it’s all the Cable news networks are talking about right now.
Its very simple, it no longer have enough air flowing over the wings creating lift, and the airplane will stall. Stall is the industry term for when a plane is not developing enough lift.
With that much fuel on board and admittedly not a full payload of passengers, nonetheless, AND in this part of the world temperatures well above average, the airplane would have stalled immediately if not within 90 seconds, depending upon alot of conditions
What happens next, depends upon again, alot of conditions. The characteristics of a particular design of an airplane and immediate reaction of the pilots. A wing will dip, ( first wing to stall) nose will pitch forward)
Having not flown a 777, can not say with full certainty, but common to every airplane the autopilot will automatically disengage. Alot of crap is going on in that moment. None of it good. All bad
What a moronic suggestion by Nance. I can decompressurize an airplane at 35,000 feet and accomplish the same. Ok instead of 13 seconds, passengers might have 30 seconds. I forgot the exact time guidance.
In either case, oxygen masks drop. Giving passengers 15 minutes of oxygen. Again because i would never ever think about it, am pretty certain (99.9%) oxygen masks can NOT be disabled.
Yeah because its a HUGE mystery, if this was a hijacking, who was behind it, because if they did it once they can do it again
Go back to those two Iranians who used stolen passports, I Never believed for one second they were “seeking asylum”
Still don’t think it was the pilots.
Still standing on my limb :)
I suspect there was a fight in the cockpit though.
I also think it was shot down. It strikes me that the Malaysian government seems totally uncoordinated, and very guarded, about what they are releasing. This often happens when lies are not yet coordinated.
I suspect it was hijacked, the two friendly Malaysian pilots killed or incapacitated with the rest of the flight crew and passengers, and then once some government discovered what was happening, they nailed that sucker with a A2A missile.
I would guess after seeing a rapid ascent to 45000 ft+, they figured all the passengers were dead anyway, may as well take it out.
Why not just buy a used commercial aircraft on the open market?
I seriously doubt there are many systems in a aircraft that can’t be disabled. The oxygen system is definitely a system that would have a off switch. You wouldn’t want it deploying if there was a fire in the cabin. It would be like pouring gasoline on a match, even with the relatively low flow of the masks included on planes.
Because they do not have $280 million for a 777, but did somehow get a nuke.
In this case, radar shows a climb to 45,000. At some point the airplane will stall due to not enough airflow over the wings. A wing dips and nose pitches forward
A "good" pilot can recover at that altitude within 2 to 3 thousand feet. In the simulator almost all pilots can recover before losing 10,000 feet. That would be considered a failure of this recovery.
According to the radar, it shows a loss of 25,000 feet. Soooooo alot of other crap is going on. But they apparently recover. Or Did they?
I have been involved in only two accident investigations. In both cases, we saw anomalies in the Air Traffic control radar data. Meaning it can have a burst of inaccurate data. But the whole body of information usually smoothes out the anomalies.
Did the altitude changes occur before the transponder was no longer working. Hmmmmm according to reports all is normal until the point that the transponder is no longer working.
If the altitude changes occurred AFTER the transponder was no longer working, they are all full of crap, because they would not know with any certainty altitude heights.
Because all this costs is a few plane tickets and flight training? Kind of like the 9/11 hijackings? Think shoestring budget.
Thank you. I was pretty close. I will have to remember next time i go to recurrent
Used airliners are a lot less than that.
The aircraft reached the edge of the stratosphere and is now floating in space. A little mangled, but nonetheless.
Yeah, right.. “Uhhhh, we’re Al Qaeda and we’d like to buy one of your 777’s and put our black flag logo on the tail, please?” /s Sheesh!
In this listing, the cheapest price for a used 737 is $750K. I have no idea if these prices are for planes in flyable condition, but the odds are some maintenance work would be necessary, which should bring the fly away price well over $1m. Compared to that, two plane tickets are peanuts. I've left out the flight training as an incremental expense, because they need that regardless of how they acquire the plane.
How about this theory. Plane takes off as it normally would. Plane gets to altitude and zap. All of a sudden radios go out. No one notices anything from the cabin. However in the cockpit, pilot and co-pilot realize something isn’t right.
They decide it is best to turn around. 15 minutes later there is another zap and the other radios go out as well as the black boxes. Also, every cell phone is zapped. The pilots, disoriented at 35,000 ft with a plane load of now panicked passengers start looking for land. Finally there is one more zap and the engines and hydraulics die.
The plane nose dives and heads for the ocean.
At the Whitehouse, a message is conveyed to both the Russians and Chinese. The message simply reads, “satellite test was successful.”
Would you like for me to explain the oxygen system for the passenger or would it be easier for you to look it up?
Hint, there are NO oxygen bottles and for that matter NO oxygen carried on board the airplane for the passengers.. Depending on type of aircraft One or Two bottles for cockpit crew. There are portable oxygen bottles on board. 777 may have a dozen. Not sure the exact amount. Can be used between 15 and 30 minutes each depending upon the flow you select
Wow, I bet that blows your mind.
Hint. They are call oxygen GENERATORS. Ya cant turn them off. I dont want to have to explain. Just got to google type in "oxygen generator" + airplane. Am sure you can read all about it
” It strikes me that the Malaysian government seems totally uncoordinated, and very guarded, about what they are releasing. This often happens when lies are not yet coordinated.”
It also happens when you’ve got an unsophisticated third-world-level government that gets blindsided by a crisis it is not prepared to handle, and doesn’t want to look bad on the world stage.
True. But all the speculation is that the plane would carry a nuke. If someone has the wherewithal to acquire a nuke, they can also get a plane to deliver it.
I don’t think a B777 will stall 45,000. Sure, you can stall it deliberately.
Service ceiling is defined as the maximum altitude at which and aircraft can maintain a climb of fifty feet per minute.
The chief pilot in my company is a brilliant man. He has thousands of hours in the 757, 767 and 777 with a major airline before being forced to retire due to age. I checked him out in a certain corporate jet. Out company acquired another jet of that make it model, but it had some very minor differences, one of them being service ceiling. The jet I checked him on had a ceiling of FL450. This other aircraft had a ceiling of FL410.
I didn’t make him do a complete new check out in the new aircraft, but I did discuss the difference of service ceilings. He came back from his first trip in the new aircraft and declared that the new airplane was a real dog at FL430. I reminded him that it’s ceiling was FL410. That’s the only mistake I’ve ever seen him make. Again, he is a wonderful pilot.
Possible of course but HOW only two of them could accomplish this is unclear. By now, even without official information, in a mystery of this nature we should have leaks that one/both took flying lessons. ..or were seen to frequent radical mosques or their computers show questionable affiliations etc. But we don’t hear anything like that.
The questions I ask myself only lead to more questions ..that make NO SENSE.!!!
I’m not much for Nostrildamus but he did seem to possibly predict 9/11 and a nuclear attack on NYC.
Wow. And you are an instructor no less?
You got the 50 feet climb performance required to establish the service ceiling. But my friend many many other factors involved. Like weight and temperature. We have on average a plus 15 to 20 ISA here in the mid latitudes. Full of fuel, high temperatures. A sudden and dramatic drop after reaching 45,000 feet. Come on, you are better than that
Engines do stall above their service ceiling. Then the aircraft goes into glide mode.
Here’s an example of Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.
The two pilots were exploring the performance limits of the empty CRJ-200 on the ferry flight. The pilots decided to test the limits of the CRJ, and join the “410 Club,” referring to pilots who pushed CRJs to their maximum approved altitude of Flight Level 410 (41,000 feet).
The accident sequence started when the pilots performed several non-standard maneuvers at 15,000 feet, including a pitch-up at 2.3g (23 m/s²) that induced a stall warning. They set the autopilot to climb at 500 ft/min to FL410. This exceeded the manufacturer’s recommended climb rate at altitudes above FL380. In the attempt to reach FL410, the plane was pulled up at over 1.2g, and the angle of attack became excessive to maintain climb rate in the thinner upper atmosphere. After reaching FL410, the plane was cruising at 150 knots (280 km/h), barely above stall speed, and had over-stressed the engines.
The anti-stall devices activated while they were at altitude, but the pilots overrode the automatic nose-down that would increase speed to prevent stall. After four overrides, both engines experienced flameout and shut down. The plane then stalled, and the pilots recovered from the stall at FL380 while still having no engines. At that altitude, there were six airports within reach for a forced landing. This led the pilots to pitch nose down in an attempt to restart the engines, which requires a dive sharp enough to attain the required 300 kt for a windmill restart to make the blades in the turbines windmill at 10% N2 (turbine rotational speed). The captain did not take the necessary steps to ensure that the first officer achieved the 300-knot or greater airspeed required for the windmill engine restart procedure and then did not demonstrate command authority by taking control of the airplane and accelerating it to at least 300 knots.
However, the turbine blades expanded contacting the honeycomb labyrinth seals allowing the metal to scrape on each other when the engine overheated with zero core rotation. When the engine is shutdown at altitude, the core begins to cool and the stator, including the static Interstage Static Seal (ISS), contracts at a faster rate than the adjacent rotating parts in both the radial and axial direction because of its faster thermal time constant. The relative rate of cooling of the stator and rotor results in an alignment of the rotating seal knife-edges aft of the normal operating groove in the static seal. If the clearances are tight enough and the relative cooling rates are right, contact can occur between the static and rotating seal elements. The resulting stiction can temporarily prevent the rotor from turning when only the force of ram air is applied to the core. Air Turbine Starter (ATS) torque has been shown adequate to overcome this restriction (NTSB Accident Information Brief Update for October 29, 2004.) Thus, when the engine cooled, the assembly did not match anymore and the blades could not rotate freely. The crew ended the descent when they had reached 230 kt but neither engine core (N2) ever indicated any rotation during the entire descent. Since they were too high for an APU start, the ram air turbine (known as an “Air Driven Generator” on Bombardier products) was deployed to power the aircraft, and the crew donned oxygen masks as the cabin slowly depressurized due to loss of pressurization air from the engines.
The crew glided for several minutes. The crew then tried to restart engines using the APU at 13,000 ft. This was again unsuccessful. They then declared to Air Traffic Control (ATC) that they had a single engine flameout. At this point they had four diversion airports available to them. After continuing unsuccessfully to attempt to restart both the left engine (two times) and the right engine (two times) for over 14 minutes, while utilizing the emergency restart procedure, much altitude was lost. Despite their four auxiliary power unit-assisted engine restart attempts, the pilots were unable to restart the engines because their cores had locked. Without core rotation, recovery from the double engine failure was not possible. It was after these unsuccessful attempts that they declared to ATC that they had in fact lost both engines.
Unable to reach the assigned diversion airport, Jefferson City Memorial Airport, they crashed six minutes later outside Jefferson City, Missouri, behind a row of houses (the 600 block of Hutton Lane two-and-a-half miles short of the airport), and the plane caught fire. Both pilots were killed. There was some damage to houses and a garage, but no one on the ground was hurt.
You watching Megyn? Must see!
A 777 doesn’t cost $280MM. You can buy a perfectly good one for $35MM-$60MM.
I'm sure they could buy it through any number of front companies. Buying one has the advantage of not alerting everyone in the world that there's a missing jet out there. But shoestring operations conducted on the basis of the jihadist equivalent of church collection plates don't have the luxury of unlimited budgets.
Whatever the method of acquisition, my guess is they'd probably paint it with the logo of some non-descript airline or freight company, enter the airspace of the target nation during the small hours of the morning and carry out the assigned mission.
Sounds like he made a series of mistakes including CHECKING the FMC or performance charts BEFORE he attempted to climb. Sounds like he just did his thing. And that my friend is dangerous
Doesn’t really matter where the O2 comes from, the process has a off switch, I can guarantee it, in modern planes. The oxygen generators you speak of, they actually used a non-reversible process manually triggered.
Why are you so combative? The end result is that pure oxygen is released into the atmosphere. This is a fire risk.
Also, thanks for the suggestion on the Google search. The 777 uses oxygen bottles, not generators. Probably should take your own advice before attempting to smack someone down in the forums :)
Or getting a nuke might have exhausted their funds.