Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Tanks and trenches to defend Ukraine from Russia
The Telegraph ^ | 17 Mar 2014 | Damien McElroy, Donetsk

Posted on 03/18/2014 5:28:37 AM PDT by McGruff

Ukraine despatched tanks into the rolling terrain of the Donbas basin on Monday, putting its biggest guns back on the scene of the biggest armoured clash in history.

It was in this bleak but fertile landscape along what is now Ukraine's border with Russia that the Red Army routed Nazi Panzers to turn the course of the Second World War.

But as Ukraine's dilapidated tank units moved to muddy berms in the fields south of Donetsk city as part of face-saving mobilisation, the guns of T-64 and T-72 models were this time pointed towards Russia.

In responding to a reported Russian military build-up, however, Ukraine's military immediately ran into groups of activists who tried to obstruct their movements. In the village of Elenvola on the edge of the great plain, there was anger at the manoeuvres from their own countrymen.

"Russians and Ukrainians don't want to fight each other," said Ivan Inozemev, a prison warder. "We would be happy to be part of Russia if that's what happens."

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: crimea; putinsbuttboys; russia; surrendermonkeys; ukraine; viktoryanukovich; waronterror; yuliatymoshenko
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-168 next last
Some interesting history here.
1 posted on 03/18/2014 5:28:37 AM PDT by McGruff
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: McGruff

It’s a suicide mission for the Ukrainians, and any general who sends them in should be shot. The Russians control the airspace, period, and Ukrainian tanks will be target practice for the Russians.


2 posted on 03/18/2014 5:34:39 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

So they should just roll over and do nothing?


3 posted on 03/18/2014 5:36:30 AM PDT by Girlene (Hey, NSA!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: McGruff
T-64s and T-72s?

15 minutes of propaganda and a lot of dead tankers if fighting starts.

I see that the Soviet community activists are already taking orders from Putin to slow down their own countrymen. If only there was a country anywhere in the world with the strength to slow the Soviets ...

Interesting that the same actions don't seem to happen from the other side ...

4 posted on 03/18/2014 5:37:03 AM PDT by texas booster (Join FreeRepublic's Folding@Home team (Team # 36120) Cure Alzheimer's!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

at least make the russkies pay for it


5 posted on 03/18/2014 5:37:45 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

a pox upon the Telegraph, won’t let me read the article


6 posted on 03/18/2014 5:39:22 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

The litte guy vs the big guy


7 posted on 03/18/2014 5:41:32 AM PDT by jsanders2001
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: McGruff
"Russians and Ukrainians don't want to fight each other," said Ivan Inozemev, a prison warder. "We would be happy to be part of Russia if that's what happens."

Sounds like they're nearly as committed and interested in Ukrainian sovereignty as, well, as Obama.

8 posted on 03/18/2014 5:42:14 AM PDT by Sooth2222 ("Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself." M.Twain)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

Sounds like the Ukrainians are preparing for a WW 1 defense in the year 2014. If Putin snaps his finger Ukraine is history. Ukrainians should resolve to fight a guerrilla war as the Afghans did to defeat Russia.


9 posted on 03/18/2014 5:46:09 AM PDT by kenmcg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

The Ukranians should learn from the Afghans.

Irregular and nonstop treacherous combat.

Don’t send tanks, send IED’s.


10 posted on 03/18/2014 5:47:20 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Early 2009 to 7/21/2013 - RIP my little girl Cathy. You were the best cat ever. You will be missed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kenmcg

Stop reading my mind.


11 posted on 03/18/2014 5:47:44 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Early 2009 to 7/21/2013 - RIP my little girl Cathy. You were the best cat ever. You will be missed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
at least make the russkies pay for it

It wouldn't make Russia pay anything. They will rout this "force" decisively, and they will appear even stronger in the eyes of those in this region. Nothing good comes from a token resistance that makes your enemy appear stronger, and yourself appear impotent.
12 posted on 03/18/2014 5:52:46 AM PDT by jjsheridan5
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ken5050
It’s a suicide mission for the Ukrainians, and any general who sends them in should be shot.

Blood is the only thing the world understands. Now Putin is a hero, lets see how he might fare as a butcher. The Ukrainians must set some type of tripwire.

13 posted on 03/18/2014 5:56:54 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: kenmcg

Exactly. The Ukrainians should plan for a long asymmetric guerrilla against any potential Russia occupiers, and it’s going to need to be understood that it’s going to a protracted and bloody affair, with lots of body bags going home to Mother Russia.

Afghanistan 2.0 in other words.


14 posted on 03/18/2014 5:59:50 AM PDT by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: jjsheridan5

think about what you said

so are you saying that the Warsaw Ghetto uprising wasn’t worth fighting? I differ. I say in the words of Patrick Henry: “Give me liberty or give me death.”

http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html


15 posted on 03/18/2014 6:00:55 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Girlene
So they should just roll over and do nothing?

Look what's happened to the "democracies" of the west. Our leaders are supporting a government that includes nazie sympathizers, installed after a coup manipulated by US interference. They're condemning a vote against that takeover that deposed an elected government.

What should they do? They should let the people vote whether they want to go with Russia or stay with Ukraine. Those who consider themselves Russian should not be forced to stay with a government installed by a coup, especially since we now know it wasn't a popular uprising that took over the government.

16 posted on 03/18/2014 6:01:05 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Girlene

Yeah. Probably. Successful military planning starts a lot earlier than two-weeks ago. Here’s a clear case of not taking a knife to a gunfight.


17 posted on 03/18/2014 6:01:47 AM PDT by Portcall24
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Girlene; yldstrk
You're both very cavalier with other people's lives...

Sending tanks into today's battlespace without any air cover/support is a suicide mission. Period.

Do you remember what we did to the Iraqi tank divisions? During Desert Storm I believe we destroyed over 1,000 of Saddam's tanks, even those of the "vaunted" Republican Guard. I think we lost 1 or 2 tanks.

That's what happens when you send out tanks without air cover. Saddam didn't give a crap about his troops..I assume the Ukrainian generals have more smarts and compassion.

If the Russians invade, they should order the troops to destroy the tanks in place, and surrender.

18 posted on 03/18/2014 6:03:14 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: grania

Still haven’t figured out why the “outrage” over alleged US interference, but not a peep about Russian interference.


19 posted on 03/18/2014 6:03:25 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: grania

I suppose it’s more posturing by the Ukrainians to try to negotiate some kind of face-saving deal with the Russians....perhaps to try to get a “Velvet Divorce”, which would be, all things considered, the best possible outcome here.


20 posted on 03/18/2014 6:06:09 AM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

Russians are protecting Russians in an area that is historically Russian. The US should be defending our border with Mexico from the invasion and the impact it’s having on US citizens.


21 posted on 03/18/2014 6:06:15 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

I suspect most of the Ukrainians will surrender in droves.


22 posted on 03/18/2014 6:06:59 AM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

Never surrender.

Fade back and strike when you can with unconventional warfare


23 posted on 03/18/2014 6:07:05 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: grania

Right, so how would you feel about Mexico protecting Mexicans in an area that is historically Mexican?


24 posted on 03/18/2014 6:07:27 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

I love it when people say that no one needs a tank anymore.


25 posted on 03/18/2014 6:07:32 AM PDT by Noamie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ken5050
It’s a suicide mission for the Ukrainians, and any general who sends them in should be shot. The Russians control the airspace, period, and Ukrainian tanks will be target practice for the Russians.

Better red than dead, eh? Have not heard that since the sixties.

26 posted on 03/18/2014 6:09:02 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: ken5050
"Sending tanks into today's battlespace without any air cover/support..."

Why would Ukraine NOT have air defense systems and close ground support?
Weren't those integrated into all Warsaw-Pact armies?
I mean, they had nukes for crying out loud, they MUST have some other relatively modern weapons systems.

27 posted on 03/18/2014 6:10:29 AM PDT by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy
Right, so how would you feel about Mexico protecting Mexicans in an area that is historically Mexican?

If they needed protection, I'd accept that. It is one of the problems with the invasion of the US. Huge swaths of the country have not assimilated to the US.

I'd say that if you don't want that to happen, you're totally in sync with putting US troops on the US southern border and sending home invaders into this country for good.

28 posted on 03/18/2014 6:10:56 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

“Do you remember what we did to the Iraqi tank divisions?”

They weren’t all destroyed by air. The air destruction was greatest on their retreat, but it was tanks that killed those tanks on the front. And, yes, we lost a couple.


29 posted on 03/18/2014 6:11:11 AM PDT by Noamie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Girlene
So they should just roll over and do nothing?

Basically.

30 posted on 03/18/2014 6:13:11 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: grania

Ok, so Mexico declares that Mexicans in Texas need protection from the Tea Party . . . .


31 posted on 03/18/2014 6:13:49 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Noamie

Our tanks were free to maneuver and attack because they didn’t have to worry about any air attacks.


32 posted on 03/18/2014 6:14:09 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Girlene

Yep, militarily sound.

Ukraine should lease an airbase to an EU lead effort of Nato. Should not be lead by the U.S as the U.S military has been compromised and we have no prevailing interest other than goodwill and valuable consideration from our European allies.


33 posted on 03/18/2014 6:14:44 AM PDT by Usagi_yo (Standardization is an Evolutionary dead end.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Psalm 73

Modern weapons systems cost $$$$, lots of it, and require lots of maintenance, and trained troops to perform it. The Ukraine has lacked all 3 since independence. The Soviets gave them the nukes..


34 posted on 03/18/2014 6:15:57 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk

That’s OK..they’ll have a chance then..but not in tanks against the Russians.


35 posted on 03/18/2014 6:16:51 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: ken5050
It’s a suicide mission for the Ukrainians, and any general who sends them in should be shot.

"I would not lead you further into senseless slaughter."

Gen. Robert E. Lee, in his address to his troops at Appomattox.


36 posted on 03/18/2014 6:17:00 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy
ok, so Mexico declares Mexicans in Texas need protection from the Tea Party

So send the Mexicans home before that happens. If the area becomes overwhelmingly Mexican and doesn't assimilate, it's because of the number of invaders allowed in the US.

37 posted on 03/18/2014 6:17:06 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

I think there is a bigger issue here. A fully mobilized Russian army on the loose in Europe means they are not stopping with Crimea. Moldavia will also fall and it’s possible Kazakhstan to the east could also fall.

Of course Obama removing defensive missiles once again show how courageous he is when it comes to foreign affairs.

On a good note, this just eliminated the wife of the first disbarred, impeached rapist from the 2016 race. Explains why the GOP is pretty quiet. This is all Hillary’s fault....reset my a$$.


38 posted on 03/18/2014 6:17:42 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (John "Cupcake" Kerry. That's funny right thar, I tell you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

Putin’s arrival through the golden doors at the Kremlin this morning was that of a conquering hero. The eleven oligarchs whom The Won named in U.S. sanctions were seated in the front row of the applauding, standing-ovation crowd. No one looked nervous about retaliation by the weakling West.

But just in case Latvia, Estonia, Poland et al are worried, VP Biden is touring in these counties. (Cue “Send in the Clown”....)


39 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:37 AM PDT by txrefugee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: School of Rational Thought
Really?

Let them fight an unconventional war..look what the mujahadein did to the Soviets in Afghanistan..just not throw away lives..

40 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:43 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Jim Noble

Maybe we should provide the air cover—Like the old Flying Tigers in China before the USA was in WW II. Volunteers frlying hot fighters—to fly for Free Ukraine? Maybe get the Euros to help?


41 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:46 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: grania
So send the Mexicans home before that happens.

Circular logic--that leads to: "If they needed protection, I'd accept that."

42 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:46 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

PS: and the case for Russian protection is stronger. The government they democratically voted for was overthrown by a coup.


43 posted on 03/18/2014 6:18:51 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
think about what you said ... so are you saying that the Warsaw Ghetto uprising wasn’t worth fighting? I differ.

Entirely different situation. In fact, so different, I cannot comprehend how someone could even posit such a comparison with a straight face. In Warsaw, they were doomed. They were going to die, regardless. They were going to lose their country, their culture, everything, and they had no way out. Nothing of the sort is happening here. Ukraine can still muster a credible resistance. They aren't going to be slaughtered wholesale, and they have external countries which will help them (although not decisively). Throwing out this kind of token defense accomplishes nothing, and carries with it a price.

I say in the words of Patrick Henry: “Give me liberty or give me death.”

You can say that all you want. It doesn't give you (not you, but Ukraine) license to take leave of their senses, and abandon any vestige of strategy and long-term thinking. If you say this in order to rationalize any kind of poor decision, you render these words meaningless.
44 posted on 03/18/2014 6:19:10 AM PDT by jjsheridan5
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Buckeye McFrog

Thank you, sir....


45 posted on 03/18/2014 6:19:18 AM PDT by ken5050 (I fear a world run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy
that leads to "if they needed protection, I'd accept that

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

46 posted on 03/18/2014 6:19:57 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

This is old data but shows there already are Russians in parts of Ukraine.


47 posted on 03/18/2014 6:20:06 AM PDT by McGruff (They say the first casualty of war is truth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: grania

You misunderstood. Hypothetically, deporting Mexicans from Texas would lead to Mexico declaring that they need protection, then invading with troops.


48 posted on 03/18/2014 6:22:05 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: EQAndyBuzz

On the bright side, the U.S. and European stock markets rose nicely after Putin’s victory declaration. They believe him when he says he will not add any more territories to his quiver. Obviously, he has more credibility than our lying leader.


49 posted on 03/18/2014 6:22:29 AM PDT by txrefugee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: McGruff

Watch as 1000 years of European borders change
http://loiter.co/v/watch-as-1000years-of-european-boarders-change/


50 posted on 03/18/2014 6:23:09 AM PDT by listenhillary (Courts, law enforcement, roads and national defense should be the extent of government)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-168 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson