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The Rise of Anti-Capitalism ____ The internet of things
nytimes.com ^ | MARCH 15, 2014 | By JEREMY RIFKIN

Posted on 03/22/2014 2:46:32 PM PDT by dennisw

WE are beginning to witness a paradox at the heart of capitalism, one that has propelled it to greatness but is now threatening its future: The inherent dynamism of competitive markets is bringing costs so far down that many goods and services are becoming nearly free, abundant, and no longer subject to market forces. While economists have always welcomed a reduction in marginal cost, they never anticipated the possibility of a technological revolution that might bring those costs to near zero.

The first inkling of the paradox came in 1999 when Napster, the music service, developed a network enabling millions of people to share music without paying the producers and artists, wreaking havoc on the music industry. Similar phenomena went on to severely disrupt the newspaper and book publishing industries. Consumers began sharing their own information and entertainment, via videos, audio and text, nearly free, bypassing the traditional markets altogether.

The huge reduction in marginal cost shook those industries and is now beginning to reshape energy, manufacturing and education. Although the fixed costs of solar and wind technology are somewhat pricey, the cost of capturing each unit of energy beyond that is low. This phenomenon has even penetrated the manufacturing sector. More than six million students are enrolled in free massive open online courses, the content of which is distributed at near zero marginal cost.

Industry watchers acknowledge the creeping reality of a zero-marginal-cost economy, but argue that free products and services will entice a sufficient number of consumers to purchase higher-end goods and specialized services, ensuring large enough profit margins to allow the capitalist market to continue to grow. But the number of people willing to pay for additional premium goods and services is limited.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS:
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1 posted on 03/22/2014 2:46:32 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: dennisw
The Commies at the "New York Slimes" are attacking the free enterprise system again? What a shock /sarc

Incidentally, Napster is vicious parasitism off musician's creative work. There used to be fines against some of the napster users. I'm not sure what the system is now, but the napster system as it started should have been dealt with by the courts via fines against some of its users.

2 posted on 03/22/2014 2:52:49 PM PDT by Stepan12
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To: dennisw

It’s coming. Technological Socialism will change the world. Not necessarily for the better, but it will happen.

Older people work hard for big houses, big cars, jet skis, etc. The younger generations are happy with a small apartment, a smartphone, gaming console, and laptop. That’s why the free market message not only doesn’t appeal to them; it actually turns them off.


3 posted on 03/22/2014 2:53:31 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Bryanw92

Yup. Look at open source software. People will work on it for free or for a fraction of the salary from a real company. I don’t understand it, but there it is.


4 posted on 03/22/2014 3:00:50 PM PDT by rbg81
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To: Bryanw92

Being rich is the new racism.


5 posted on 03/22/2014 3:10:19 PM PDT by Dallas59 (Obama: The first "White Black" President.)
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To: dennisw

omg the abundance of cheap/free goods, which free people up to do other things, the horror. We must put a stop to this!!


6 posted on 03/22/2014 3:11:34 PM PDT by 4rcane
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To: dennisw
I have been studying the internet of things for a while (purely to determine if there is investment potential there and, if so, where)...and this statement from the article is hilarious...
The inherent dynamism of competitive markets is bringing costs so far down that many goods and services are becoming nearly free, abundant, and no longer subject to market forces.
When I can get my new Mercedes for free and drive to my free beach house with free fuel. Then I will be convinced.
7 posted on 03/22/2014 3:13:59 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: Bryanw92
It’s coming.

Baloney!

Do you think these hot new Stanford/MIT grads are socialists, wanting to donate their work for free.

These kids want to make billions. And that takes capitalism.

If anything, socialism will be run over by young billion $ seeking capitalists.

There is a revolution on the horizon, but it isn't socialism.

8 posted on 03/22/2014 3:18:32 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: dennisw

Rifkin doesn’t see the future as usual.

Mass customization will be the outcome. Instead of cheap mass produced identical goods, the near zero cost of basic production married to high bandwidth interactive communication will lead to value added services thru the process of customization.

And it will be capitalist. That’s how new services will be built on low to zero cost infrastructure, like Linux platforms, like self replicating 3 D printer bots.

Everything up to now has followed this pattern. Rifkin is a Bolshevik nostalgic still confused by capitalist development, which he misunderstands since it appears formless to him.


9 posted on 03/22/2014 3:21:05 PM PDT by Regulator
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To: All
Check out this video at Vimeo to get a bird's eye view of the real revolution. (These guys talk fast so you might need to back up a few times...I did). And believe me, capitalism (otherwise known simply as economic freedom) is the foundation of this revolution.

The old joke about Communism still applies.

Technocrat: "Mr. Smith, you have been approved for a brand new automobile."

Mr. Smith: "Great, when can I expect delivery?"

Technocrat: "In about 15 years...would you prefer morning or afternoon delivery?"

Mr. Smith: "Better make it in the afternoon...the plumber is coming in the morning."


10 posted on 03/22/2014 3:25:23 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: RoosterRedux

I remember that old joke!


11 posted on 03/22/2014 3:28:14 PM PDT by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: dennisw
I agree: the problem with Capitalism our Republic is that thieves are making it legal to steal.

And I agree that if something doesn't change soon, our system will collapse....
12 posted on 03/22/2014 3:52:25 PM PDT by Tzimisce
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To: dennisw

...except at the NYT where they still charge for online subscriptions....


13 posted on 03/22/2014 3:53:36 PM PDT by Tzimisce
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To: RoosterRedux
Do you think these hot new Stanford/MIT grads are socialists, wanting to donate their work for free.

Great for the 1% that want to make billions.

What are the other 99% gonna do?

In the future it will be harder to get decent pay for a decent day's labor.

14 posted on 03/22/2014 4:22:37 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: dennisw

Wait until we make everything at home with 3D printing ... :-) ...


15 posted on 03/22/2014 4:27:19 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Bryanw92

“The younger generations are happy with a small apartment, a smartphone, gaming console, and laptop. “

Since they’ve been largely “educated” that children are to be avoided, what need do they have for more?

The other side of that coin is that children by necessity induce responsibility and maturity.

Where is our culture going? It’s not looking pretty...


16 posted on 03/22/2014 4:33:20 PM PDT by PreciousLiberty
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To: rbg81

A lot of fun can be poked at open source, but much of it is better than the commercial stuff.


17 posted on 03/22/2014 4:35:58 PM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: dennisw; All

This is hilarious. Rifkin mistakes cheap things for free, and the destructive creation of capitalism for the destruction of capitalism

When you start with false assumptions, it is hard to come up with correct conclusions.

Rifkin has never had a clue. He is desperate to come up with a reason for the long overdue failure of capitalism.


18 posted on 03/22/2014 4:36:46 PM PDT by marktwain (The old media must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: Bryanw92
Technological Socialism will change the world.

There is no such thing as "Technological Socialism".

Calm down and get a grip.

19 posted on 03/22/2014 4:38:39 PM PDT by BfloGuy ( Even the opponents of Socialism are dominated by socialist ideas.)
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To: dennisw

More software, education and designs are free. Entertainment can and should be cheap for the wise and frugal. Less expensive, older manufacturing methods can be used to produce any one of many items for a profit (see prices and costs). Many regulations will fall for lack of business revenues and subsequent lack of government revenues (for lack of manufacturing that generated more real revenues).

Some government-connected special interests dislike these natural, free market changes and are looking for ways to enforce more consumerism and legislate more fee hikes and regulations against healthy, productive activities (small building, manufacturing, etc.) while projecting their socialist tendencies on their enemy (American consumers unable to spare more money for non-essential purchases).

Too bad. We’re steeped in government and consumer debt, unwilling to legalize real production enough everywhere to allow new, small operations for new ingenuity (building, manufacturing, etc.). That’s the way of current paradigm, and it’s not being directed from the bottom. It’s being directed from the middle and the top (the more influential constituents and constituent groups) with concerns for extinct property values and concerns against new competition.


20 posted on 03/22/2014 4:38:52 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: dennisw

The lessons economics were thrown out the window long ago. The rules are the same, as we will find to our dismay.


21 posted on 03/22/2014 4:41:20 PM PDT by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
Great for the 1% that want to make billions.
What are the other 99% gonna do?
In the future it will be harder to get decent pay for a decent day's labor.

There will always be decent pay for a decent day's labor with decent skills and productivity. That includes most of the service industry. In my rural area the tradesmen make some of the best money.

In the digital world that this article is mostly talking about there is an increasing tendency to be rewarded for innovation and productivity. There is a false dichotomy by some of the posters above between "open source software" and making billions of dollars. It is true that proprietary software still gets the biggest investments, but open source software is often at the heart of the very highest capitalizations. People can easily become practitioners in one or more of them and with some extra effort can contribute to one and be in demand.

The difficulty now is that the whole world is competing. The quintessential example is digital services paid by digital currency like bitcoin. The buyer puts up an offer and gets a component quickly and cheaply. But the people who build up skills to work efficiently will be amply rewarded.

22 posted on 03/22/2014 4:52:33 PM PDT by palmer (There's someone in my lead but it's not me)
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To: palmer

With Open Source Software, the software is the razor, Support are the “blades”.


23 posted on 03/22/2014 4:54:45 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: BfloGuy; Bryanw92; dennisw
On a matter relative to "Technological Socialism," I've noticed quite a few revisionist propaganda writers tossing the word, technocracy, around to describe socialism (linguistic activism, special interests). Some men are more in touch with the physical materials and interactions around us, and of those men, some are more in touch with other realities (markets, human reactions, etc.). Most others are out of touch because of their inability to see through the propaganda (lack of perceptions based on physical realities), their own desires (desiring more debt/revenues to flow to them) and their resulting subjective perceptions (what they feel that they want to believe).

2 definitions found for technocracy
From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 : 

  technocracy \tech*noc"ra*cy\, n.
     government by technical specialists.
     [PJC]

From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) :

  technocracy
      n 1: a form of government in which scientists and technical
           experts are in control; "technocracy was described as that
           society in which those who govern justify themselves by
           appeal to technical experts who justify themselves by
           appeal to scientific forms of knowledge"



24 posted on 03/22/2014 5:03:35 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: BfloGuy

>>There is no such thing as “Technological Socialism”.

I didn’t say that there IS. I said that there COULD BE. 20 years ago, we didn’t have e-commerce. Times are a’changin. The brick-and-mortar world is crumbling. Items “owned” in an online game are as valuable to a Millenial as your garage full of stuff.


25 posted on 03/22/2014 5:13:28 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Stepan12
Napster is vicious parasitism off musician's creative work.

To the extent that Napster charges its customers to access other people's work, yes. But as a musician, myself, I think the development of digital music has invalidated the whole model of charging money for a recording, at least in its bare, digital form. An MP3 song is best seen as a free commercial for a band's live performance, or for a more elaborately packaged CD version of the recorded work that includes additional products and benefits for the customer. Customers who don't want the extras, or who don't like the band enough to pay to see them live, can just listen to the song...and maybe they will like it enough to virally market it to a friend who will pay for the content. Either way, considering the casual listener a thief is unnecessary - they aren't stealing anything significant from the artist.

Of course, the music industry - which relies heavily on artificial acts with little talent who can't deliver quality live performances without expensive lighting, lip syncing, and a hundred backup dancers - realizes the game is up, and are collectively lashing out at reality in a blind panic. :)

26 posted on 03/22/2014 5:14:43 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ([CTRL-GALT-DELETE])
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To: RoosterRedux
The thing that always upset the Russian Communists was that we had all the cars and they had all the parking places.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

27 posted on 03/22/2014 5:17:52 PM PDT by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: Stepan12

On a song and its worth, see “minstrel.”


28 posted on 03/22/2014 5:30:45 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: dennisw

I see that Rifkin has crawled out from under his red rock again. He’s like a marxist vampire. No matter how many stakes we drive thru his dead heart, he keeps coming back like Mayor for Life Marion Barry of DC.

Several of us exposed Rifkind’s fraudulent “Peoples Bicentennial Commission” of 1976, Frank Watkins in his masterful testimony/expose’ before the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee and my study for the American Conservative Union’s Education and Research Institute, among others.

Then Rifkin changed its name to the “Peoples Business Commission” and tried to con businesses into contributing to his anti-free enterprise marxist group, with some success.

Later he founded the “Foundation for Economic Trends”, another marxist-oriented BS organization which got a lot of legitimacy in the dumbassed and duped mainstream press, such as the New York Times (aka the Red and Gray Duped Lady”).

Now he’s a big leftist environmentalist fraud, a sort of Al Gore before there was an environmental wacko named Al Gore.

I know why this BS was published in the New York Times. It is so full of leftist psychobabble BS that in order to read it, one has to go over to the UN and get a gaggle of translators to work on making any sense of it.

Oh, and what about that pro-Hanoi “National Committee for A Citizens’ Commission of Inquiry on US War Crimes in Vietnam”? One of the best microcisms of the “Hanoi Lobby” re who was involved, that you cold find in 1970/71 (including Hanoi Jane, Noam Chomsky, psychopath Ralph Schoenman, the wife beater, communist operative Dave Dellinger, and many from the future Peoples Bicentennial Commission. USSF, and Citizen Soldier, among others.

Rifkin is like an partially treated jock rash. He just keeps coming back in a new form and is a real pain in the ass.

And the mainstream media treat him like he’s Viagra, not a red rash.


29 posted on 03/22/2014 5:32:36 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: dennisw
Is this guy still around? He was wrong the last time, and this is no improvement.
30 posted on 03/22/2014 6:58:40 PM PDT by JoeFromSidney (Book: Resistance to Tyranny. Buy from Amazon.)
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To: dennisw

The author hasn’t been watching the full cycle of all the “free” stuff. With the internet, many start providing beta versions of apps/etc. for free and collect data to enhance the product. Once they are comfortable that they have a truly marketable product, the freebees stop. Others (Malwarebytes, etc) offer toned-down versions for free, but the real hope is that the free version will want folks to take the next step. “Free” is mostly transitory.


31 posted on 03/23/2014 4:25:39 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: trebb

Here is almost free that kills normal phone companies and what VOIP comcast offers>>>>>>>

obie100 ($37)
and
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32 posted on 03/23/2014 4:56:21 AM PDT by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: RoosterRedux

For the record, what is the internet of things?

The internet is connectivity to information. Although all to not provide information,they can.

All cannot contribute things. All things are not connected.


33 posted on 03/23/2014 5:10:14 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
To the extent that Napster charges its customers to access other people's work, yes. But as a musician, myself, I think the development of digital music has invalidated the whole model of charging money for a recording, at least in its bare, digital form. An MP3 song is best seen as a free commercial for a band's live performance, or for a more elaborately packaged CD version of the recorded work that includes additional products and benefits for the customer. Customers who don't want the extras, or who don't like the band enough to pay to see them live, can just listen to the song...and maybe they will like it enough to virally market it to a friend who will pay for the content. Either way, considering the casual listener a thief is unnecessary - they aren't stealing anything significant from the artist.

Of course, the music industry - which relies heavily on artificial acts with little talent who can't deliver quality live performances without expensive lighting, lip syncing, and a hundred backup dancers - realizes the game is up, and are collectively lashing out at reality in a blind panic. :)

Bingo! We have a winner.

What is happening is music is going back closer to its roots, where the true musicianship is in the writing, and then the performing. In the old days the money was made off of the rights to the song and sheet music. Anyone could perform your music, but you got paid for it. Second, if you were a good performer, people would pay to come and see music you performed. Very few did both the writing and performing. That all changed big time by the 1960s with mass media. But things eventually became corrupt, and corporations found they could make millions with "manufactured" artists.

Flash forward to today, and we are closer to the old model than the newer one. Many artist/bands do pretty darn well touring/selling T shirts, etc. but they know that their digitally recorded music is really not much more than an advertisement to get you interested in them, and hopefully you will come and see a show. That is also what the radio is for, as well as music videos. Music video's are just fancy commercials also, that is why artists will spend a fair amount of money to make one, with no intention of "selling" it to make a huge profit. It is just a effective way to get their music more widely heard, and for the public to be able to see the faces behind the music, and hopefully again, spend money to come and see them.

They still will sell you a CD if you want, but if they tried to make it just on that, they would be back to painting houses full time......

34 posted on 03/23/2014 5:13:47 AM PDT by machman
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To: bert

Google it.


35 posted on 03/23/2014 5:17:12 AM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: RoosterRedux

Done.... thanks


36 posted on 03/23/2014 5:23:34 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... History is a process, not an event)
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To: bert
Also, check out "usage based insurance" (which will be among the first revolutions of the internet of things).
37 posted on 03/23/2014 5:51:46 AM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: dennisw; Bryanw92; Sherman Logan
The inherent dynamism of competitive markets is bringing costs so far down that many goods and services are becoming nearly free, abundant, and no longer subject to market forces. While economists have always welcomed a reduction in marginal cost, they never anticipated the possibility of a technological revolution that might bring those costs to near zero.
In a previous thread, Sherman Logan pointed this out. I didn't respond when he asked me, because I wanted to think about it. He's got a point; what happens when you eliminate scarcity? Technology has already made music go post-scarcity. Modern economics of any flavor haven't dealt with post-scarcity yet.

We have some thinking to do.
Older people work hard for big houses, big cars, jet skis, etc. The younger generations are happy with a small apartment, a smartphone, gaming console, and laptop. That’s why the free market message not only doesn’t appeal to them; it actually turns them off.
My parents have this huge house. 30 rooms. 2 acres, 1 in front and 1 in back. It costs them tons on upkeep. They have to hire people left and right to take care of it; none of us children can help them because we don't have the time.

I have a living room, a kitchen/dining area, a bathroom, a bedroom, and no yard. I find it really hard to justify more. A library might be nice, but not necessary with ebooks. I drive a Hyundai; I have no need for a truck or a luxury car. My wife feels the same.

A lot of people my age and younger are the same. It gives the Boomer economic viewpoint problems.
38 posted on 03/23/2014 10:37:44 AM PDT by GAFreedom (Freedom rings in GA!)
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To: GAFreedom

>>He’s got a point; what happens when you eliminate scarcity? Technology has already made music go post-scarcity. Modern economics of any flavor haven’t dealt with post-scarcity yet.

>> I have a living room, a kitchen/dining area, a bathroom, a bedroom, and no yard. I find it really hard to justify more. A library might be nice, but not necessary with ebooks. I drive a Hyundai; I have no need for a truck or a luxury car. My wife feels the same.

>> A lot of people my age and younger are the same. It gives the Boomer economic viewpoint problems.

You aren’t alone. This is becoming the typical lifestyle for most young adults, and quite a few middle age people are realizing the beauty of life of minimal “stuff”.

The Boomer economic view will die with the Boomers. They will never understand a life free of a giant house full of consumer goods any more than they accept the Sunday sermon being delivered by a guy (or woman) in jeans and untucked t-shirt.


39 posted on 03/23/2014 10:51:29 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: 4rcane

The author is an ignoramus. Nearly 200 years ago Commodore Vanderbilt would let you take his ferry for free. He made his money on the gambling and liquor.

Here’s a tiny bit of background:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt#Steamboat_entrepreneur

Sadly, this bit of American history from Wikipedia doesn’t include “free” passage. Free markets drive costs down. It’s natural.


40 posted on 03/24/2014 5:15:07 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Regulator

Spot on.


41 posted on 03/24/2014 5:16:06 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: familyop

Most unemployment is driven at the state level via state, county and local regulations, permitting and licensing requirements.

I mean people on a lifetime of welfare or the chronically underemployed, not just people between a job. Better to free up those local markets via the underutilized Commerce Clause. I mean if Filburn’s wheat is “in commerce” then so is every local reg ever written.


42 posted on 03/24/2014 5:20:12 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

Keep stepping on their necks until dead. These Marxists are beloved of all the crony billionaires in the world. It’s hard to kill a well-funded bad idea.


43 posted on 03/24/2014 5:22:22 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: machman

Capture the middle-man’s excess profit. That’s what free markets do.


44 posted on 03/24/2014 5:24:32 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Bryanw92; GAFreedom

One of the basic, if untaught, axioms of economics is that scarcity is natural. There can never be abundance because everyone’s demand curve shifts.

Shortages, on the other hand, are always caused by government. High prices cure themselves. That’s what we’re seeing.


45 posted on 03/24/2014 5:27:33 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

To my #29 posting.

COrrection and typos:

Name of author of the SISS hearing/study of the PBC is FRANK WATSON, not Watkins.

dropped letters in “Microcosm” and “could”.

Wrote this late at night.


46 posted on 03/24/2014 6:58:32 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: 1010RD
"Better to free up those local markets via the underutilized Commerce Clause. I mean if Filburn’s wheat is “in commerce” then so is every local reg ever written."

That's very interesting and something that hadn't occurred to me. Thanks!


47 posted on 03/25/2014 1:30:40 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: familyop

With the right SCOTUS you could cut government at the state and local level down to size tout de suite . That kills the Democrat gravy train of cronyism and not just at the local level.

The Democrat Machine is a pyramid scheme.


48 posted on 03/25/2014 2:36:58 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: GAFreedom; 1010RD

Excellent commentary from you both. Thanks. Here’s something that can be done. It’s one way for people who have the desire to learn and work to be re-enfranchised. Everyone, work more for yourselves.

Low-tech rednecks and others around the world have been joining neo-hippie “permaculture” folks on projects for a long time. I’ve worked with a few. There are some very promising energy designs that can be modified to pass regulations or go unnoticed where needed. Such systems can radically lower costs and radically cut down cash flows to the political/regulator class (major investors, often by way of employees’ associations in government-connected, conventional, expensive energy interests along with bonds, etc.).

Rocket Stove Mass Heater
http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp

$2K Solar Space + Water Heating — One Simple DIY System
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/DHWplusSpace/Main.htm

Ingenuity and “innovation” do not always come from those approved, degreed, licensed or certified by facist/communist leadership. It has often come from the bottom without proper credit to those doing the work and discovering (includes many in small business). 40 years of further stepping on the ingenuity base has been a foolish direction to take. Some of the “permaculture” folks even call themelves “dirtbags” and the like in mockeries of our sedentary, regulating masters.

We are the “sustainable” “permaculture”—not those who despise our existence and appear to be trying to gradually outlaw all real work and exterminate us. Have fun. Build, and enjoy the slide.


49 posted on 03/25/2014 3:37:50 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: familyop

I’d seen the rocket stove mass heater earlier this year. The old Roman baths had their stove pipes built in a series right into the walls to heat up their rooms. I bet you could do that with a few walls and regain all that heat loss going up your flue.

I will check out the solar later. Thanks and I love FR for this very reason. Good debates by good thinkers make for good learning. Take care.


50 posted on 03/25/2014 5:59:07 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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