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How much weight should our opposition to abortion carry in our voting decisions?
ligonier.org ^ | 3/22/14 | RC Sproul, Jr

Posted on 03/22/2014 2:46:47 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper

How much weight should our opposition to abortion carry in our voting decisions?

God calls us to think His thoughts after Him. That means all of His thoughts. That is, we ought to have a sound and biblical view on everything the Bible touches on. Where it touches on political issues, we are called, again to have sound biblical views. We need to think biblically about what is just war and what is not. We need to think faithfully about taxation, and the size and scope of government. We need to think through what obligation, if any the state has to protect property, to protect our lives.

That said, there are precious few things that frustrate me more about the evangelical right than its utter foolishness with respect to proportion politically. We bundle together this issue and that, everything from tax rates to school vouchers to flag burning to abortion, and call it “family values.” There is a right and a wrong answer on all these issues. But abortion is not like any of the others. It stands out all on its own. In a hundred years, the Christian church will not hang its head in shame that it did so little to pass a Constitutional Amendment against the burning of the flag. In a hundred years, no elderly Christian will be looked at with suspicion by the younger generation because they didn’t do more to lower the tax rate. In a hundred years, if God should be so gracious, we will be looked upon as that godless generation of the church that watched tens of millions of babies go to their deaths. Indeed, we’ll be remembered as those “Christians” who elected men to office who believed that the state ought to protect the rights of some mothers to murder their babies.

It is unfair to draw too tight a comparison between abortion in America and the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. There are significant differences. First, the Holocaust was carried out, by and large, in secret. The rank and file Germans had no idea what was going on. We, on the other hand, every last one of us, woke up today knowing that four thousand babies would die today. We, on the other hand, have four thousand mothers, every day, who knowingly do this. We, on the other hand, have four thousand fathers, boyfriends and husbands who every day encourage this. The Holocaust lasted roughly ten years, and the Nazi’s killed roughly six million people. We, on the other hand, have been at this for 35 years, and have killed more than fifty million babies. It is an unfair comparison, unfair to the Nazis. We are far worse monsters.

How much weight should our opposition carry? I have purposed in my heart that I would never vote for a man for any office that is not committed to using every power at his disposal to protect and defend every unborn child. Never. Ever. If every Christian would simply make that simple pledge, then we would win this battle. As it stands, at best we vote for candidates who might nominate or support judicial candidates who might vote for this small impediment or that to abortion on demand. At worst, we vote for the guy with the R by his name. We need to get rid of our strategies, and get on our knees in repentance. We need to stop negotiating with candidates over the bodies of dead babies.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2014; abortion; infanticide; prolife; vote
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In a hundred years, the Christian church will not hang its head in shame that it did so little to pass a Constitutional Amendment against the burning of the flag. In a hundred years, no elderly Christian will be looked at with suspicion by the younger generation because they didn’t do more to lower the tax rate. In a hundred years, if God should be so gracious, we will be looked upon as that godless generation of the church that watched tens of millions of babies go to their deaths. Indeed, we’ll be remembered as those “Christians” who elected men to office who believed that the state ought to protect the rights of some mothers to murder their babies.


You are correct, sir.

1 posted on 03/22/2014 2:46:47 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: SoFloFreeper

The rank and file Germans had no idea what was going on?

Bull loney.


2 posted on 03/22/2014 2:54:13 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Responsibility2nd

If a candidate is wrong on the issue of abortion, then his other values are probably wrong too.


3 posted on 03/22/2014 2:56:29 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: SoFloFreeper

Agreed. The problem, to my thinking, is that abortion isn’t the responsibility of the Federal Government. It is a power left to the several States.

Medicine and marriage are regulated by the States, not the Federal Government.


4 posted on 03/22/2014 2:56:51 PM PDT by SatinDoll (A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN IS BORN IN THE USA OF USA CITIZEN PARENTS)
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To: SoFloFreeper
... the Nazi’s killed roughly six million people.

No, the Nazis killed roughly six million Jews.

And seven million other Communists, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others deemed inconsistent with the 'glories' of the Third Reich.

5 posted on 03/22/2014 2:58:20 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

The reality, for political reasons we should do as the democRATS do when talking about gun control for abortion. Simply lie and deny that we are going to pass abortion regulations....and when we get a majority, do as they do, and pass those very regulations that they denied in the campaign.

you can’t do anything if you don’t have a majority.


6 posted on 03/22/2014 2:59:04 PM PDT by Ouderkirk (To the left, everything must evidence that this or that strand of leftist theory is true)
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To: SoFloFreeper
I cannot vote for a candidate who supports abortion.

I just can't do it. When we fail to protect the weakest among us even at the ballot box we've failed as a nation, IMO.

7 posted on 03/22/2014 2:59:21 PM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: SoFloFreeper

Without the right to life, all other rights are meaningless.


8 posted on 03/22/2014 3:04:46 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: SoFloFreeper

Every factor must be weighed. Suppose a candidate buys conservative support by telling voters he is against gun control and expanding abortion rights, but votes to impose socialism on the country. Socialism has a lot of blood on its hands at least in countries where it was able to fully mature, almost as much as the number of babies that have been aborted in the US since Roe.

see:
DEMOCIDE:
MURDER
BY GOVERNMENT

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM


9 posted on 03/22/2014 3:07:41 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Responsibility2nd

I can believe that many didn’t know (probably the further they were from the Polich border); much of the killing was done in occupied countries, and many of the people doing the killing were from those countries. I don’t believe nobody knew, and I definitely believe it was something people were terrified to speak of openly.

Much of Germany’s protections of individual rights today are based on the role the culture of intimidation and the all-prying eyes of the state played in coercing “normal” people into submission/cooperation. For some reason, we accepted that the Japanese emperor wasn’t accountable for his nation’s actions (due to fear for his life) but we didn’t accept the same defense from many in Nazi-controlled Europe.


10 posted on 03/22/2014 3:08:05 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: kearnyirish2

I’m a conservative NOT a republican.

Gov’t should not be involved with abortion or marriage. These two should be only between a woman/dr and people/ministers respectively. It’s not my d@mn business.

Or is that libertarian? Ok, I’m libertarian.


11 posted on 03/22/2014 3:11:29 PM PDT by bicyclerepair (The zombies here elected alcee hastings. TERM LIMITS ... TERM LIMITS)
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To: Ouderkirk
you can’t do anything if you don’t have a majority.

Being able to win an election has to factor in there somewhere as well.

12 posted on 03/22/2014 3:15:05 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: bicyclerepair

Infanticide is hardly a conservative position. Your attitude mirrors the view of people who stopped regarding many (Gypsys, Jews, homosexuals, retarded people) as “people”. I don;t mean to be offensive, but de-humanizing them was the first step to convincing many people to exterminate them.

Do you believe many “andangered species” eggs should receive more protection than a human egg (as they currently do under US law)? Do you believe that the parents of minors that currently have to approve of body piercings or tattoos should also have a say (or at least be notified) of the abortion process on their children (which carries much more significant health risks, never mind the murder involved).


13 posted on 03/22/2014 3:15:46 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: bicyclerepair

>> It’s not my d@mn business.

The killing of nascent, human life is everyone’s business.

The govt has certainly failed on the marriage front.


14 posted on 03/22/2014 3:21:37 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: bicyclerepair

Coward.


15 posted on 03/22/2014 3:24:43 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: SoFloFreeper

There are only two issues which will make me 100% oppose a candidate.

The first is abortion and the other is gun control.


16 posted on 03/22/2014 3:25:15 PM PDT by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
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To: SoFloFreeper

The taking of innocent life is one of four sins that cry out to Heaven for justice. I, for one, do not want to be on the receiving end of that justice when it is carried out.

I will NEVER knowingly vote for a murderer. That would make me complicit in the act of murder.


17 posted on 03/22/2014 3:27:17 PM PDT by TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed (Yahuah Yahusha)
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To: SoFloFreeper

To me, the death of an unborn is the ONLY ISSUE that really matters — because it is about taking a human life. No other issue holds higher. That being said, this is an issue that is impossible to legislate without hypocrisy.

A murderous “mother” who goes through abortion or acts that lead to miscarry may argue that she has right to her own body. Pro-life advocates correctly point out that the child inside is clearly not her body, rather an independent human being with his own rights.

The only NON-hypocritical solution is to register every conception so that each pregnancy is tracked to ensure human rights of the unborn. Who knows, perhaps murdering mothers would simply miscarry through many available means. If one is anti-abortion, one must be anti-miscarry as well. After all, both result in a death of a human being. All deaths must be investigated for foul play. In miscarriages, the child did not receiver nutrient properly, or the mother smoked and drank, perhaps did drugs... where does the governmental power stop? A very complex situation indeed.


18 posted on 03/22/2014 3:30:53 PM PDT by sagar
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To: sagar
To me, the death of an unborn is the ONLY ISSUE that really matters — because it is about taking a human life. No other issue holds higher. That being said, this is an issue that is impossible to legislate without hypocrisy.

There's something worse than murder in this world. That something is refusing salvation. This keeps on getting ignored and that's why the abortion furore keeps on chasing its own tail.

Once God gets His due props, then all else will fall into place, not without difficulties, but inexorably. Abortion is a symptom more than it is a disease.

19 posted on 03/22/2014 3:33:58 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
If a candidate is wrong on the issue of abortion, then his other values are probably wrong too.

Exactly how I see it. I vote accordingly.

20 posted on 03/22/2014 3:36:33 PM PDT by Faith
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To: sagar

I have no problem with any of those proposals. After 55 million dead babies you’re worried about the slippery slope in the other direction? We need some perspective here.


21 posted on 03/22/2014 3:38:33 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“There’s something worse than murder in this world. That something is refusing salvation.”

When you murder others, you rob others of their earthly life and liberty. When you refuse salvation, you may rob yourself of heavenly life and liberty. I would say that refusing salvation is akin to refusing a sales pitch of a wonderful product that could help you in the future. Clearly, that is not in the same class as murdering someone, especially the innocent unborn!


22 posted on 03/22/2014 3:39:08 PM PDT by sagar
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To: sagar

Disagree. On the basis of the bible itself. Unforgivable vs. forgivable sin.


23 posted on 03/22/2014 3:40:16 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: SoFloFreeper

If it is between a pro life and a pro baby killing candidate, always vote pro life.

If both or pro death, vote for the Republican. (They have at least a chance of voting right due to party pressure later.


24 posted on 03/22/2014 3:44:44 PM PDT by garjog (Obama: making the world safe for Sharia.)
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To: bicyclerepair
Yes, what you say is often the stance of the Libertarian.

Can you answer a couple of questions:

1) Is abortion the murder of a human being?
2) If yes, is it the Libertarian stance to permit murders as long as state bodies pass such legislation?
25 posted on 03/22/2014 3:45:26 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“On the basis of the bible itself. Unforgivable vs. forgivable sin.”

Thankfully, the laws of the US are earthly laws. You will have to wait for your death to find out the constitution of the heaven(The Bible) to start.


26 posted on 03/22/2014 3:45:33 PM PDT by sagar
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To: DuncanWaring

No, the Nazis killed roughly six million Jews.

And seven million other Communists, Gypsies, homosexuals, and others deemed inconsistent with the ‘glories’ of the Third Reich.

////////////
Well put! Thank you.

In comparison to our abortion numbers, the Nazis were mere pikers, however.


27 posted on 03/22/2014 3:47:02 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting towards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: sagar

Nope, they are revealed now and we are told to live by them now.

Casuistry only steers you to hell, and that begins with hell on earth, you can’t even say you have managed to put it off till eternity.


28 posted on 03/22/2014 3:47:38 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: man_in_tx

But the greatest mass-murderer of all may very well be Rachel Carson.


29 posted on 03/22/2014 3:50:48 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Ouderkirk

you can’t do anything if you don’t have a majority.

///////////////
True: But, if you would, please clarify just what it is you mean by “majority.”

Surely, you cannot mean we should merely settle for a majority of elected officials who haven an “R” after their names?

How many times have we been sold down the river by alleged “Rs” who voted “D” . . . When it REALLY mattered?

Answer: Far too often.

We need to elect officials who are uncompromising in their opposition to abortion.

Whether abortion is opposed via Federal or state legislation is a matter for debate. However, in keeping with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, I believe it better legislated at the State level.

Lest we forget, prior to the infamous Roe V. Wade decision, abortion was outlawed in something like 47 to 50 states. Roe v Wade overturned the laws of almost 50 states..., and this country has never since recovered.

Currently, abortion is legally practiced in all 50 states — though, I would hope, not for long here in Texas, Deo Volonte!


30 posted on 03/22/2014 3:54:04 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting towards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: man_in_tx

make that “47 to 49 states”


31 posted on 03/22/2014 3:56:07 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting towards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: SoFloFreeper
In a hundred years, no elderly Christian will be looked at with suspicion by the younger generation because they didn’t do more to lower the tax rate. In a hundred years, if God should be so gracious, we will be looked upon as that godless generation of the church that watched tens of millions of babies go to their deaths.

The only lasting victory will come from defunding the Left. With every passing year, the Dems get more people who are dependent upon government, and willing to vote the Dem line.

I could see the Dems offering a bargain: they would agree to not oppose the elimination of all government support for abortion, along with larger restrictions on abortion access, in exchange for our side not opposing a large expansion of government. Then, five years later when the Dems have leveraged this expansion to secure complete control of all branches, they cancel what they initially agreed to, and make abortion-on-demand to the 9th month a federally funded entitlement.

What will the remaining Christians of the 22nd Century think of you then? That you were noble to seek a short term victory, or that you were fools for losing the long-term war?

32 posted on 03/22/2014 4:01:12 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: man_in_tx

I appreciate your point, but if you look at the democRATS, they are all true believers, so their aliegence is never questioned, and the leadership manages to hold the line and enforce party discipline on their members who stray.

Republicans never seem to learn that lesson. The squishy R’s never seem to feel the pressure that they should. Juan McAmnesty and Lindsey Graham leap to mind but there are others as well. Gingrich did enforce some unity/loyalty to a large degree while he was speaker, yet Hastert the Bastert and even Boner never have.

This is really the issue you are addressing, and that is a function of the leader and who is able to manage enough allies to become speaker. The Whip so some degree needs to be the enforcer, and remind those members who go soft, that they will not be around in the next term if they run afoul of the agenda.

I don’t think that announcing their opposition to abortion is going to get ignored my the democRAT media, they will get trashed by the democRAT media, and thus will not get elected at all. Better to not discuss it like the democRATS do, give assurances that they are not going to ban it when questioned like the democRATS do with gun control, and then once elected just go ahead and do it like the democRATS do.

I agree that this is a state issue but we need to win national elections to appoint Federal judges who believe that this is a state issue.


33 posted on 03/22/2014 4:20:48 PM PDT by Ouderkirk (To the left, everything must evidence that this or that strand of leftist theory is true)
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To: bicyclerepair
These two should be only between a woman/dr and people/ministers respectively. It’s not my d@mn business.

Then you are officially 'pro-choice'.

34 posted on 03/22/2014 4:30:22 PM PDT by Sans-Culotte (Psalm 14:1 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”)
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To: bicyclerepair

That is a non-response, it is simply a way of saying you support abortion and the end of marriage.


35 posted on 03/22/2014 4:33:54 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: SatinDoll

Abortion is just “medicine” and gay marriage in the military, federal employment, and immigration is a state by state issue.

You sure have some crazy ideas.


36 posted on 03/22/2014 4:35:41 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: Responsibility2nd

not probably!


37 posted on 03/22/2014 4:36:39 PM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: HiTech RedNeck; sagar

The most anti-God, perverse post of all, is the one trying to convince voters to not vote against abortion and to protect marriage, all the while pretending that it is for God.

Christians should always vote in a way that represents their Christian faith.

Vote as a Christian.


38 posted on 03/22/2014 4:45:03 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: SoFloFreeper

The right to life is first for a reason. If a candidate can’t get the most important one right, I can’t trust him or her to be strong on any of the others.


39 posted on 03/22/2014 4:48:13 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: SoFloFreeper

As with Amnesty,100%. Both positions render the candidate at least highly untrustworthy on all other apparently conservative positions.


40 posted on 03/22/2014 5:10:10 PM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
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To: ansel12

Rand and Daddy are pro-lifers, may be varying degrees of that but per Rand Paul, he definitely is and has sought out “life at conception” legislation if one talks of “Libertarians”.

http://www.prolifealliance.org/

Wanting the government out of it is a nice thought but it is not realistic as things stand.


41 posted on 03/22/2014 5:17:35 PM PDT by BeadCounter (morning glory evening grace)
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To: All

I caught a small bit of Michael Medved’s show, he was saying something like even the unborn have DNA, DNA every person has.

“What the pro-life movement has achieved is cutting the level of abortion in the United States to its lowest point in 30 years.”

The audience erupted in applause at the good news.

Medved was one of four speakers on a panel moderated by socially conservative CitizenLink President Tom Minnery titled “Can Libertarians and Social Conservatives Ever Get Along?” The three other panelists were Dr. Matthew Spalding, associate vice president and dean of educational programs for Hillsdale College; Matt Welch, editor-in-chief of Reason magazine; and Alexander McCobin, president of Students for Liberty.

According to the most recent study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the number of reported abortions performed in the U.S. in 2010 decreased by 3 percent compared to 2009.

That decrease came on top of a 5 percent fall the year before, which “represented the largest single-year decrease in the total number and rate of reported abortions,” since CDC began the survey in 2000.”
- See more at: http://rare.us/story/conservative-radio-host-pro-life-movement-example-of-successful-conservative-libertarian-partnership/#sthash.cdO6gRPz.dpuf

Seems like small percentages but still.


42 posted on 03/22/2014 5:23:47 PM PDT by BeadCounter (morning glory evening grace)
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To: SoFloFreeper

tremendous weight. next question.


43 posted on 03/22/2014 5:36:32 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: SoFloFreeper
How much weight should our opposition to abortion carry in our voting decisions?

I guess you have to ask yourself how much you care about
helpless human beings being slaughtered.

44 posted on 03/22/2014 5:41:23 PM PDT by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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To: sagar

“Pro-life advocates correctly point out that the child inside is clearly not her body, rather an independent human being with his own rights.”

That is tru, as we now know from a biological perspective. The mother can miscarry if the fetus’s immune system is not strong enough to withstand the attack from the mother’s killer t-cells.
That fact alone states, biologically, that the child growing inside her is a separate human being, not her flesh to do as she pleases.
Abortion IS murder.
Once I understood the biology behind it, there was no longer a thought on this topic

It is black and white.


45 posted on 03/22/2014 5:52:53 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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To: man_in_tx
We need to elect officials who are uncompromising in their opposition to abortion.

And this is where the problem lies.

As of late, candidates who are uncompromising in their opposition to abortion tend to lose to candidates who are uncompromising in their support of abortion.

46 posted on 03/22/2014 5:59:59 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: ImaGraftedBranch

“Pro-life advocates correctly point out that the child inside is clearly not her body, rather an independent human being with his own rights.”

That is tru, as we now know from a biological perspective. The mother can miscarry if the fetus’s immune system is not strong enough to withstand the attack from the mother’s killer t-cells.
That fact alone states, biologically, that the child growing inside her is a separate human being, not her flesh to do as she pleases.
Abortion IS murder.
Once I understood the biology behind it, there was no longer a thought on this topic

It is black and white.


I often wondered why we don’t go to the Supreme Court again. Technology is on our side. Slavery was once legal, but that was corrected. We have to start thinking in a new way to fight this battle and others that affect our faith.


47 posted on 03/22/2014 6:09:27 PM PDT by Linda Frances (Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness.)
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To: Drew68

That depends and I’d say not really especially if one keeps up with the news.

Texas and Rick Perry have been signing anti-abortion legislation, Wisconsin Republicans and Scott Walker have passed anti-abortion and anti-planned parenthood legislation. It’s even happened in New Jersey with Governor Christie defunding Democrat party puppetmaster Planned Parenthood. So, statewise, I believe a lot of pro-life progress has been made, Mississippi has only one clinic in the whole state, that’s pretty much the case for Missouri too.

So you have your pro-life states and then, on the other hand, you have what are your pro-choice states.

There are a number of Republicans that get criticized but if they have taken a stand for life as some of the above mentioned have, I definitely commend them. And make no doubt about it, they stick their neck out for the cause of life.

Senators Rand Paul and Roger Wicker, Jim Jordan, Congressman Steve Stockman, the list goes on as shown at this website: http://www.prolifealliance.org/


48 posted on 03/22/2014 6:12:38 PM PDT by BeadCounter (morning glory evening grace)
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To: SoFloFreeper

I do not vote for democrats.

Ever.

The democrat party is the party of death.

About half of Republicans are also death eaters.


49 posted on 03/22/2014 6:14:06 PM PDT by NorthMountain
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To: BeadCounter

Rand has come out against social conservatism though, and taking a gay marriage stance.

I question his sincerity. When a politician claims to believe something deeply, but pursues an agenda that makes his claimed goal impossible, then something doesn’t add up.


50 posted on 03/22/2014 6:19:00 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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